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Overall, was feminism bad for America?

Overall, was feminism bad for America?


  • Total voters
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It's bad, it shouldn't happen.

And what would you call it?

But it happens far less than discrimination that happens because someone isn't a white male.

No one ever said it didn't, and you completely ignored the fact that no one ever claimed to be an oppressed white male.
 
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It's bad, it shouldn't happen. But it happens far less than discrimination that happens because someone isn't a white male.

Neither instance should happen...but then for you to discount the perspective of one over the other is just plain ridiculous. Imagine being that white person who needs a job to provide for his family and knowing that the only reason you cant have that job is because you are white. How does THAT work in the whole race relations scheme...**** you pal...you didnt cause it...but you do have to pay for it...

And again...for the record...that isnt ME. Hell...I'm mixed race enough I QUALIFY to play the race card...I dont. And Ive never pretended to know 'Jim Crow' type suffering...but then...neither has the assclown that mentioned Jim Crow...and probably not very many people in the last say...3-5 GENERATIONS or so...

which goes back to the original post...if society had continued its progress I highly doubt we would still be where we are with regard sexism...and racism. I think things would be MUCH more improved without sides and the hatred.
 
I had to pay for school without the special compensations and opportunites. I had to endure appeasement acts in the military watching incompetent womena nd minorities get promoted in the name of social justice. Want to see appeasement acts in operation? Look at every soldier of the year banquet. Does it fix the disparity?

No one ever said it didn't, and you completely ignored the fact that no one ever claimed to be an oppressed white male.

He may not have said he was an oppressed white male, but that is what he was getting at. The system was oppressing him,by not giving him the same opportunities as a woman, or minorities, as he claims. So that makes him the oppressed white male I was referring too.
 
I am sure there is a variety of opinions on this. Such a social movement changed a lot about America, some good and some bad. What is your opinion about it overall?

First, I am fully supportive of women being treated as equals to men, getting the same pay for the same job.

That said, feminism was originally funded as a means of getting women out of the house and to double the base of people paying taxes. As women had become more and more independance from men, more and more women would leave there husbands meaning that a family would then be paying taxes for two jobs, taxes for two houses, two vehicles, etc...

Even though this was the case, the origins of feminism in america was a good thing.

Since that time, feminism has shifted into an excuse for women to become as promiscuous as possible. Womens heroes have shifted from the 'wonder woman' type to the Britanny spears / Christina type role models.

At the same time, all the traits of masculinity have been demonized by women, which has caused a 'feminisation' of men. Many men are not allowed to act as men because it makes them 'mysoginist', 'pigs', etc... And men, who mainly want to make their women happy will ablige by allowing themselves to become more feminized, which eventually pushes away women, since women aren't attracted to feminized males, they are attracted to men.

It's become a very convoluted situation.

So, ultimately, feminism started off as a good thing... but it's been corrupted and twisted into something much less benevolant.
 
He may not have said he was an oppressed white male, but that is what he was getting at. The system was oppressing him,by not giving him the same opportunities as a woman, or minorities, as he claims. So that makes him the oppressed white male I was referring too.

The HE is 'I' and I never once implied that. The fact is the situation I DESCRIBED happens. I only brought it up in response to a pathetic allegation that 'because you are a white man you cant understand poor pathetic women nd minorities and their suffering"...the typical impotent liberal moan.

Now...THAT IT HAPPENS is just a thing. I assure you...nothing could be further from the truth if you think I see myself as being or have been oppressed. I have had 3 very successful careers...ive accomplished much and Im VERY HAPPY with where I am in life and where I am headed. Oh...BTW...I said THAT in that same post as well...see how easy it is to miss things when you jump to whiny conclusions?
 
Hunter/gatherer dynamic is evolutionary. Men are generally, physically, stronger and can therefore sustain more the physical effort needed to hunt game. Women, not being equally physical are better suited to gathering. We still retain those evolutionary differences and they don't stop at physical build either. Women seek out security for their offspring while men seek the most viable female to ensure the continuation of his genes. These and other evolutionary holdovers still dictate much of our behavior. Just because you have high testosterone makes you an anomaly or an exception, not the rule. You are arguing based on your personal bias and ignoring the the norm.

The "norm" is more cultural than genetic.

I've actually presented evidence behind my points. You say Hunter/gatherer as if that is a proven fact, versus a theory of social development. There is no written history from the hunter/gatherer era, and there are multiple competing theories about how early human societies operated.

VegSource Article

Fail.
 
So you husband likes the way you stroke it?

Do you have a purpose on this forum any longer besides wandering around dazed and pathetic, uttering an occasional witless non sequitur?

Where is your wife? Do you really think she'd approve of this new persona of yours?
 
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Moderator's Warning:
OK, let's everyone stop the personal attacks and get back to the topic.
 
It is a common mentality for the privileged to believe that everyone else could be as well-off as they are, if only they applied themselves, quit whining about injustice, quit being so lazy, quit doing whatever it is that they're doing wrong.

After all, the privileged know, deep in their hearts, that they're nothing special.
It stands to reason, then, that the underprivileged must be even worse. And they should just stop it- whatever it is- and work harder, then they'd be able to enjoy all the advantages that the privileged do.

The reason the advantaged subscribe to this mentality is that the alternative- which is that they've done absolutely nothing to deserve the advantages they have- is distasteful and unpleasant.
Most people can't accept it.

It's easier to blame the disadvantaged, than to truly open one's eyes and see that nothing separates you from them except an accident of birth.
That life is unfair, and you're on the receiving end. That the odds are unjustly tipped in your favor, and unjustly tipped against your neighbor.

If you accepted this, you might have to do something about it; it might require sacrificing some of your comforts and material advantages.
It would certainly require venturing outside your emotional comfort zone; laying aside the protection of your smug self-righteousness.

Most of you never will.
Therefore, change comes at your expense, rather than with your support and cooperation.
Just please don't whine at me about it. If you chose, you could be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem.
 
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The reason the advantaged subscribe to this mentality is that the alternative- which is that they've done absolutely nothing to deserve the advantages they have- is distasteful and unpleasant.
Most people can't accept it.

It's easier to blame the disadvantaged, than to truly open one's eyes and see that nothing separates you from them except an accident of birth.
That life is unfair, and you're on the receiving end, That the odds are unjustly tipped in your favor, and unjustly tipped against your neighbor.

I have decided that it's a combination of pure undeserved luck and personal initiative. Some people are born with zero luck, but take a lot of personal initiative, and become very successful. Some people are dealt a great hand of cards, and parlay it into winning the game. Some people are dealt a great hand, and piss it all away. Some people get a mediocre hand but play it pretty well.

There's no denying, however, that what people start with in this country varies to a degree that is practically unimaginable to the advantaged. Life is not at all fair, and by and large, there is no justice. Kids who start out with a hand full of nothing have a very difficult time making it into even the middle class.
 
Kids who start out with a hand full of nothing have a very difficult time making it into even the middle class.

There's really no reason why this should be. I'd suspect it's more of a mindset thing. Parents pass on their lack of initiative to their children.

Made even worse by outside sources telling them that they might as well give up, because there's no way someone like them could make it in such a racist sexist backwards country.
 
There's really no reason why this should be.

:roll:

Have you ever spent a day of your life in a failing school? Or lived in a really dangerous neighborhood where you hear gunshots at night and step on syringes on the way to school? Or lived in a home where your dad is in prison and your mom has destroyed her brain and her humanity on crack? Or where your mom's current live-in boyfriend beats you for looking at him funny? Or where you have rotten teeth that hurt constantly because you don't have dental care?

You know very little about other people's lives, Dav. You're clearly incredibly sheltered.
 
:roll:

Have you ever spent a day of your life in a failing school? Or lived in a really dangerous neighborhood where you hear gunshots at night and step on syringes on the way to school? Or lived in a home where your dad is in prison and your mom has destroyed her brain and her humanity on crack? Or where your mom's current live-in boyfriend beats you for looking at him funny? Or where you have rotten teeth that hurt constantly because you don't have dental care?

You know very little about other people's lives, Dav. You're clearly incredibly sheltered.

You know, Catz, poverty really sucks.:(
 
There's really no reason why this should be. I'd suspect it's more of a mindset thing. Parents pass on their lack of initiative to their children.

A "mindset thing".
There we go: more smug entitlement and judgementalism.
Have you ever spent any time around people who grew up in generational poverty?
Around children currently living in generational poverty?

I watched a disadvantaged young mom reading a children's book to her four-year-old daughter the other day.
She was doing the very best she could. She knows it is important to read to children. She wants her daughter to have a good life.
She read the best she could, although her best was slow and halting. I would be willing to bet money nobody ever read to her. Her parents may not have known how to read. They undoubtedly didn't speak much English.
So, she was reading to her daughter.
She came to the word "scarce" in the story. Paused. Crinkled her forehead in confusion.
Pronounced it, tentatively, "scars".
She had never encountered the word. Nobody in her life had ever used it.
She knew "scars" wasn't right, but she valiantly attempted to keep reading.
A few pages later, she stumbled over another two-syllable word she'd never heard before. Then three more, in rapid succession.
She was losing the gist of the story entirely. She began to sneer every time she encountered one of these weird words, waving the air with her hand as if waving nonsense away. He daughter, watching her, began to mimic her and do the same.
Her daughter would not grow up to know or speak these words either.
They would not be part of her world.

To me, this anecdote really illustrates everything one needs to know about generational poverty.
It's not material poverty; it's a poverty of the mind.
Children raised in generational poverty don't have half the vocabulary of more affluent children when they start kindergarten. Right out of the starting gate, they're already disadvantaged, and it only gets worse.
The teacher says words that she thinks every five-year-old, even an imbecile, should be able to understand.
Children raised in generational poverty don't understand, though, because they've never heard them.
They get more and more lost, fall further behind. Their self-esteem suffers.
What good would it do to ask for help understanding a particular word, when they don't understand half of what the teacher says, when the teacher will probably just use more words they don't understand if they ask for an explanation?
They could ask their parents, except their parents don't know these words, either.
Maybe they're not important, since their parents, friends, and neighbors don't know them or use them.
Soon, these children are sneering at the teacher and her stupid, crazy words, just like the young mother I described was sneering at that children's book she tried unsuccessfully to read to her daughter.
By second or third grade, these children will probably have blocked out the stupid talk entirely. They sit in class zoning out, waiting to get old enough that they won't have to come to school anymore. School has nothing to do with their lives, and does nothing to prepare them for their futures.

Anyway. That's what I've seen.
That's one aspect of generational poverty.
Some of them don't even understand us when we talk.... and I'm referring even to those for whom English is a first and only language.
That's a pretty big disadvantage.
Children not exposed to intellectual stimulation in their early years do not develop as many brain synapses.
They will never catch up.
Parents do the best they can, but they were likewise unexposed, and are likewise disadvantaged. And so on, and so on.
 
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A "mindset thing".
There we go: more smug entitlement and judgementalism.
Have you ever spent any time around people who grew up in generational poverty?
Around children currently living in generational poverty?

I watched a disadvantaged young mom reading a children's book to her four-year-old daughter the other day.
She was doing the very best she could. She knows it is important to read to children. She wants her daughter to have a good life.
She read the best she could, although her best was slow and halting. I would be willing to bet money nobody ever read to her. Her parents may not have known how to read. They undoubtedly didn't speak much English.
So, she was reading to her daughter.
She came to the word "scarce" in the story. Paused. Crinkled her forehead in confusion.
Pronounced it, tentatively, "scars".
She had never encountered the word. Nobody in her life had ever used it.
She knew "scars" wasn't right, but she valiantly attempted to keep reading.
A few pages later, she stumbled over another two-syllable word she'd never heard before. Then three more, in rapid succession.
She was losing the gist of the story entirely. She began to sneer every time she encountered one of these weird words, waving the air with her hand as if waving nonsense away. He daughter, watching her, began to mimic her and do the same.
Her daughter would not grow up to know or speak these words either.
They would not be part of her world.

To me, this anecdote really illustrates everything one needs to know about generational poverty.
It's not material poverty; it's a poverty of the mind.
Children raised in generational poverty don't have half the vocabulary of more affluent children when they start kindergarten. Right out of the starting gate, they're already disadvantaged, and it only gets worse.
The teacher says words that she thinks every five-year-old, even an imbecile, should be able to understand.
Children raised in generational poverty don't understand, though, because they've never heard them.
They get more and more lost, fall further behind. Their self-esteem suffers.
What good would it do to ask for help understanding a particular word, when they don't understand half of what the teacher says, when the teacher will probably just use more words they don't understand if they ask for an explanation?
They could ask their parents, except their parents don't know these words, either.
Maybe they're not important, since their parents, friends, and neighbors don't know them or use them.
Soon, these children are sneering at the teacher and her stupid, crazy words, just like the young mother I described was sneering at that children's book she tried unsuccessfully to read to her daughter.
By second or third grade, these children will probably have blocked out the stupid talk entirely. They sit in class zoning out, waiting to get old enough that they won't have to come to school anymore. School has nothing to do with their lives, and does nothing to prepare them for their futures.

Anyway. That's what I've seen.
That's one aspect of generational poverty.
Some of them don't even understand us when we talk.... and I'm referring even to those for whom English is a first and only language.
That's a pretty big disadvantage.
Children not exposed to intellectual stimulation in their early years do not develop as many brain synapses. They will never catch up.
Parents do the best they can, but they were likewise unexposed, and are likewise disadvantaged. And so on, and so on.

Then we ought to teach the parents.
 
Then we ought to teach the parents.

They are products of generational poverty as well. As were their parents. As were theirs.
That's why it's called "generational poverty".
They did not develop these brain synapses as children. They will not likely be able to now.
Perhaps an extraordinary few would.
But that's the thing: it takes a very extraordinary person to overcome this sort of poverty.
An ordinary person cannot do it.
And let's face it: most of us are not extraordinary. We're merely ordinary.

On the other hand, when you look at the children of the affluent, it takes extraordinary effort to fail, what with all the enrichment they're exposed to daily... which they've done nothing to deserve, I might add.

I don't begrudge them what they have, not at all.
It only bothers me when they whine about how the poor ought to just try harder, and then they could be just like us and have everything we have.
This is not necessarily the case.
The solution is not so simple.
 
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A "mindset thing".
There we go: more smug entitlement and judgementalism.

I'm not judging anyone, I don't feel entitled to anything, and what I meant was hardly any different from what you went on to say.
 
They did not develop these brain synapses as children. They will not likely be able to now.

Sure they can. You can always learn. It takes exposure and effort. Finding the time in their day of working to raise a family and watching the kids is probably the biggest challenge.

On the other hand, when you look at the children of the affluent, it takes extraordinary effort to fail, what with all the enrichment they're exposed to daily... which they've done nothing to deserve, I might add.

I don't begrudge them what they have, not at all.

What the **** is this "they've done nothing to deserve" nonsense? Are they supposed to have done something to be considered justly educated by being born to so called "affluent" family? My sister and husband both work and are not rich. They are educated. They are teaching their children to count and to read. Their children didn't have to do anything to "deserve" being in an educated household. That is just the way it is. It certainly sounds as if you "begrudge" them.


It only bothers me when they whine about how the poor ought to just try harder, and then they could be just like us and have everything we have.

The only solution to this problem is if the poor quit their whining and try harder and get educated.
 
The only solution to this problem is if the poor quit their whining and try harder and get educated.

Do you have any idea what it's like for a little kid growing up in an incredibly fragile and damaged home in a dangerous neighborhood, attending a failing school that is scary where the teachers don't give a ****?

People who say these kinds of ignorant, self-satisfied, bull**** things piss me off more than I can even articulate.

You wouldn't last a week in the shoes of that kid.

I'm not a believer, but Jesus nailed this one:

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
 
Her daughter would not grow up to know or speak these words either.
They would not be part of her world.

I actually disagree, I think there is a chance the daughter grows up to know or speak those words. I actually think its a rather uplifting, if at points sad, story. As you said, the girls mother who is now reading to her daughter did not have the same happen to her. Despite the difficulty, despite the frustration, despite the fact that no...its not perfect...she is trying, doing her absolute best, because she knows its what's best for her daughter. That's heart warming and exactly the type of mindset we need. I'd take 100 mothers who have trouble reading to their children, but do it because they know its what will be best for their child, over 100 who just say screw it and sit them down in front of the TV.

And you know what, if she's reading to her daughter because she knows its important, knows that her learning is important, and that she wants for her what she didn't have then my hope would be when the child's old enough to comprehend some things and not simply mimic the mother that she imparts to her daughter WHY she was doing it. The importance of education, the importance of reading, the importance of language, and why its so important to strive to be the best and to be better, to reach for better, than what those before her had.

No, if her mother's caring for her like that...if her mothers thinking like you say she is...and making those efforts, I'd dare say there's a much better chance that that child WILL come to know those words and language as she grows in life far. A chance far, far better than for ones whose mothers do not make that extra effort, do not have the mindset that just because they didn't have it, or because its hard, or because its frustrating, that its not worth doing what they know is good for their child.
 
Do you have any idea what it's like for a little kid growing up in an incredibly fragile and damaged home in a dangerous neighborhood, attending a failing school that is scary where the teachers don't give a ****?

People who say these kinds of ignorant, self-satisfied, bull**** things piss me off more than I can even articulate.

You wouldn't last a week in the shoes of that kid.

I'm not a believer, but Jesus nailed this one:

Bull****. Nobody can educate that child unless the child stops his bull**** and works hard to educate himself. Nothing I said implies we shouldn't help out where we can.
 
Bull****. Nobody can educate that child unless the child stops his bull**** and works hard to educate himself. Nothing I said implies we shouldn't help out where we can.

I think you are way oversimplifying the issue and speaking in absolutes.

BTW, the rich also whine a lot. Look at the way BP is whining and finger pointing.

"Personal responsibility" is a buzzword of the far right but when it comes to their own personal responsibility they have a double standard.
 
Bull****. Nobody can educate that child unless the child stops his bull**** and works hard to educate himself. Nothing I said implies we shouldn't help out where we can.

Unless you want to see a socialist society happen, there will always be poor folks, regardless of their education and motivation. Eliminating that, unless a utopian society occurs would not be possible, and it is naive to think other wise. The objective would be to minimize the effects, not to eliminate.
 
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