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Why do the poor do badly in school?

Why do the poor do badly in school?


  • Total voters
    41
I said:

  1. lack of motivation
  2. urban schools don't attract talented teachers
  3. rural schools don't attract talented teachers
  4. gang culture (urban)
  5. socio-economic factors
I ranked my answers. I think motivation is the primary issue, by a long shot. Second to that is lack of talented teachers.

I don't know how to motivate the poor.

I don't think it is motivation. In general, students perform much like their peers. If you're in a school district where 80-90% of kids are performing below grade level, those students aren't unmotivated, they are normal. Beyond that, when you look at risk factors for certain behaviors, these risk factors tend to cluster.

Poverty is a risk factor for school performance because it puts stress on families and individuals. It also tends to cause clusters of risk factors that can negatively impact youth, community organizations, families, and schools, such as community disorganization, poor bonding/attachment to the community, family disorganization, poor family management, etc.

I've worked with poor kids for the past 19 years now. What I would suggest is that it looks somewhat different than what you've proposed.

1. Children don't learn to read in the early school years.

This occurs for a variety of reasons. First, we are still fighting wars over how poor children will be taught. And we haven't yet figured out what works well with these students. Hence, entire areas of the U.S. are rife with illiteracy.

Here's an article that explains what I'm talking about:

Reading Wars: Phonics vs. Whole Language

2. Low family/community support for education.

When I say family support, what I mean is that literacy is supported, encouraged, and practiced in the home. A great example of what I'm talking about is John Ogbu's groundbreaking study on middle class black student failure, called Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement. I'd suggest that if you really care about this subject, you read about it, and his findings:

Editor's Review of John U. Ogbu's Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement

One of the most interesting findings by Ogbu was that black parents did very little to support their children's educations.

Ogbu found that the overarching “cultural model of pedagogy” of the Black parents was that teachers and the schools should make their children learn and achieve success. Given this ethos, Black parents’ school participation and involvement were dismal among working-class, middle-class, and professional parents. Similarly, parental involvement at home indicated a lack of close supervision of children’s homework, poor coaching on effective time management, lack of shielding from negative peer pressures, and ineffective methods for motivating children to engage in schoolwork.

I would say that this holds true, in general, in many poor areas I've worked in, from barrios of East L.A. to poor rural southern Missouri. Parental involvement is a crucial factor in whether kids will perform well in school or not.

3. Other factors that play a role:

a) Lack of access to health/dental care. It's hard to focus in school when you're in pain, don't have the glasses you need to see the front of the class, have a rotten tooth in your mouth, etc. I've seen an inordinate amount of kids who struggle with these issues.

b) Family stressors keep students from focusing on school. Mom's a crackhead. Dad's in prison. The kids are babysitting each other. You'll see clusters of dysfunction in poor-performing school areas, and they tend to involve family upheaval, family stress, family dysfunction, and the like.

c) Because of #2, some schools end up as dumping grounds for the teachers who would not be tolerated elsewhere. Lack of parental engagement in education is hugely significant. If parents are not involved, the performance of school staff often tends to be substandard.
 
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I don't think it is motivation. In general, students perform much like their peers. If you're in a school district where 80-90% of kids are performing below grade level, those students aren't unmotivated, they are normal. Beyond that, when you look at risk factors for certain behaviors, these risk factors tend to cluster.

Poverty is a risk factor for school performance because it puts stress on families and individuals. It also tends to cause clusters of risk factors that can negatively impact youth, community organizations, families, and schools, such as community disorganization, poor bonding/attachment to the community, family disorganization, poor family management, etc.

I've worked with poor kids for the past 19 years now. What I would suggest is that it looks somewhat different than what you've proposed.

Thank you for adding your experienced opinion, Cat. I would say that I didn't even consider the first item, failure to learn to read, which seems to be a result of either family disengagement in student learning (your #2) or outright family dysfunction (your #3b).

Your second item: Low family/community support for education, I consider to be one of the core factors behind my lack of motivation item. It is good to see you break it out.

I read both links, and although I don't have quotes for all of it, certain things struck me.

1. Children don't learn to read in the early school years.

This occurs for a variety of reasons. First, we are still fighting wars over how poor children will be taught. And we haven't yet figured out what works well with these students. Hence, entire areas of the U.S. are rife with illiteracy.

Here's an article that explains what I'm talking about:

Reading Wars: Phonics vs. Whole Language

Here are the quotes that really struck me. My sister has a 5 year old learning to read with Phonics at the moment. I sent her the link and some highlights on the findings of NCLB and NRP and critiques.

Students who come from "high literacy" households--where young children are read to on a regular basis, there are lots of children's books, and adults read regularly--tend to learn to read well regardless of the teaching approach used. These students tend to enter school with large vocabularies and reading readiness skills (an estimated 5% can already read when they enter school).

Students from "low literacy" households are not exposed much to reading in their homes and tend to have smaller vocabularies (as much as one-half the vocabularies of students from high literacy homes). They may speak non-standard dialects of English such as African American English and can be unmotivated students, especially if they see teachers as enemies trying to change how they speak and act, in other words their language and culture. It is argued that standard phonics approaches can be unsuccessful for these students. Whole language approaches encourage teachers to find reading material that reflects these students' language and culture.

I suppose I was read to and learned at home to read. It was not delegated to school to do the job and my parents were involved in my education. The same is true of my sister and her approach to the learning of her children.

2. Low family/community support for education.

When I say family support, what I mean is that literacy is supported, encouraged, and practiced in the home. A great example of what I'm talking about is John Ogbu's groundbreaking study on middle class black student failure, called Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement. I'd suggest that if you really care about this subject, you read about it, and his findings:

Editor's Review of John U. Ogbu's Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement

One of the most interesting findings by Ogbu was that black parents did very little to support their children's educations.



I would say that this holds true, in general, in many poor areas I've worked in, from barrios of East L.A. to poor rural southern Missouri. Parental involvement is a crucial factor in whether kids will perform well in school or not.

That lack of involvement in their children's education is sad. I also found this to be disturbing and close to the "white-man's education" dilemma.

Ogbu critiques Boykin’s (1986) “triple quandary” hypothesis regarding Black students’ ability to navigate a Black world and a White world. Ogbu grounds his critique in his and other scholars’ comparative research (Gibson, 1988; Johnson, 1999; Ogbu, 1987; Suárez-Orozco, 1989), challenging the reader to consider that several immigrant minorities, including Black (African and Caribbean) immigrants, outperform Black American students in public schools despite their cultural differences. Additionally, Ogbu states further that “the relationship between African cultures and White American culture is similar to the relationship between the cultures of immigrants from Asia, and South and Central America and White American culture” (p. 39). For Ogbu, these cultures are different from White American culture, but not oppositional. Therefore, he raises the question of why Black American students cannot get beyond cultural differences in schools when members of other minority groups do. Many have argued against this position, suggesting that this viewpoint does not consider the history of discrimination and oppression that Blacks have experienced in America and their skepticism about the “American Dream” (Ogbu, 1987; Perry et al., 2003).

I wanted to add that this oppositional attitude is probably prevalent in poor white communities, and not limited to Black Americans.


3. Other factors that play a role:

a) Lack of access to health/dental care. It's hard to focus in school when you're in pain, don't have the glasses you need to see the front of the class, have a rotten tooth in your mouth, etc. I've seen an inordinate amount of kids who struggle with these issues.

b) Family stressors keep students from focusing on school. Mom's a crackhead. Dad's in prison. The kids are babysitting each other. You'll see clusters of dysfunction in poor-performing school areas, and they tend to involve family upheaval, family stress, family dysfunction, and the like.

c) Because of #2, some schools end up as dumping grounds for the teachers who would not be tolerated elsewhere. Lack of parental engagement in education is hugely significant. If parents are not involved, the performance of school staff often tends to be substandard.

#3b is disturbing. The combination of 1, 2, and 3b are all outside of school and lead's perhaps to oppositional attitudes among students. I don't think this is restricted to black students, although the causes may be dissimilar. Poor whites also have an oppositional attitude.

None of these can be affected by educational spending. In fact, only #3c of your points can be affected thus.

Thanks again!
 
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Lack of motivation tops my list. The problem isn't that poverty automatically breeds more poverty. It's that it takes that much more work to break the cycle - work that a vast majority of impoverished people really aren't wanting to do. Socioeconomic factors do help, as more opportunities mean a higher success rate. However, I'm completely convinced that poor people have a defeatist attitude when it comes to self-betterment and achievement, and know that the path is harder than it is for someone else, so they just question it to the point of not following it.

There are opportunities out there for everyone. Just not equal opportunities. The world is not fair. You do what you can do with what you got.
 
I said:

  1. lack of motivation
  2. urban schools don't attract talented teachers
  3. rural schools don't attract talented teachers
  4. gang culture (urban)
  5. socio-economic factors
I ranked my answers. I think motivation is the primary issue, by a long shot. Second to that is lack of talented teachers.

I don't know how to motivate the poor.
Nor do I.
The Liberals are going to have to work hard and long on this one.
The Covservatives, tea baggers, Libertarians impress me as not caring..
To them its always smaller government, reduced taxes..
The poor will always be among us.
 
Nor do I.
The Liberals are going to have to work hard and long on this one.
The Covservatives, tea baggers, Libertarians impress me as not caring..
To them its always smaller government, reduced taxes..
The poor will always be among us.

Well, I think it's a given that we'll always have the poor among us. What's important is that we don't turn the middle class into the poor.
 
Then you should say that children with one parent who's a drug-addicted welfare recipient and the other who's in jail is at more of a disadvantage, not children from poor single-parent households. Huge difference between the two.

you write what you want and I will write what I want. you seem to be quibbing for the sake of quibbling.
 
I really should have included the bold as a choice. That one is huge, at least in considering my life. I just knew I would go to college, even if I took a detour through the Army.

Do schools truly have fewer resources? I mean, if kids are disruptive and cannot appreciate the resources schools already have, then what exactly is missing that could make a difference?

I have to agree. Probably the main reason I completed college was that from as far back as I could remember, was that it was simply expected by my family. If the culture is there, than it helps create a personal drive.
 
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I have to agree. Probably the main reason I completed college was that from as far back as I could remember, was that it was simply expected by my family. If the culture is there, than it helps create a personal drive.

I would agree with that. My parents went to top schools and it was expected we would too.
 
I think that some generationally poor people do inherit their inabilities from their parents. Yes, as a rule I think the lower classes contain people less intellectually endowed, and in some cases there is a genetic component, but it's hard to separate that out from the cultural deprivations that these kids suffer. They don't get exposed to books or a culture of enjoying them. They don't get exposed to adults discussing important topics, providing interesting insights, laying out plans for the future and carrying them out.

One of the biggest differences between the poor and others, at least in America where opportunity exists for most people, is not raw intelligence, but instead the ability to make plans and carry them out. It's like the difference between a bad chess player and a good one and a great one. A great chess player can look ahead many moves and envisions responses to a variety of possibilities.
 
Schools should first teach the 3 Rs then, teach them the things that really count like... automotive repair, building houses, plumbing, electrical installation and repair, painting, roofing, brick laying, truck driving, cooking, welding, yard work, tree trimming, road repair, drafting, and how to be skeptical about TV adds, get rich schemes, political promises, and spam.

ricksfolly
 
Thank you for adding your experienced opinion, Cat. I would say that I didn't even consider the first item, failure to learn to read, which seems to be a result of either family disengagement in student learning (your #2) or outright family dysfunction (your #3b)

It's not only a result of families not being engaged, but also appears to be a function of using teaching strategies that do not work. It seems that teaching reading is divided into two camps: Phonics-based education and whole language. In reality, it appears that a mix of these strategies are required, along with direct instruction and potentially, using volunteers to read to students. Students need to learn phonics (the building blocks of language). They need to learn to enjoy reading for it's own sake and see how words fit together (whole language). They need to learn to read aloud (direct instruction). And, they need to be read to...if not by parents, then by mentors or volunteers.

Schools that have incorporated a holistic approach to teaching reading have not only turned around student performance, but have reduced behavioral issues in school by as much as 80%. The schools that have done this have been primarily in the elementary ages. It gets much harder to teach literacy as students move into early adolescence. There is a window for teaching literacy, and if it is missed, it seems that students never really recover. I've seen this turn-around performed in urban schools, and it requires a committed administrator/principal and faculty. It also may require the principal to have free reign to fire/remove non-performing teachers. The entire school has to be on the same page. It's not easy, but it can be done.

And, as you stated below, it isn't as much about money/funding as it is about leadership and requiring teachers to be on the same page.

Your second item: Low family/community support for education, I consider to be one of the core factors behind my lack of motivation item. It is good to see you break it out.

YEs, it's huge. It is the common link that you see in areas of the country with low educational attainment, regardless of race. It's why some immigrants (caribbean, African, asian) assimilate well educationally and overachieve, and why some (central American, Mexican, Haitian) don't.

I suppose I was read to and learned at home to read. It was not delegated to school to do the job and my parents were involved in my education. The same is true of my sister and her approach to the learning of her children.

That lack of involvement in their children's education is sad. I also found this to be disturbing and close to the "white-man's education" dilemma.
I wanted to add that this oppositional attitude is probably prevalent in poor white communities, and not limited to Black Americans.

Yes. It is as common in Appalachia as it is in urban Detroit.


#3b is disturbing. The combination of 1, 2, and 3b are all outside of school and lead's perhaps to oppositional attitudes among students. I don't think this is restricted to black students, although the causes may be dissimilar. Poor whites also have an oppositional attitude.

Indeed.

None of these can be affected by educational spending. In fact, only #3c of your points can be affected thus.

This would be my position, as well. In the most troubled urban school districts I've worked with, the schools actually have a higher weighted pupil unit than their surrounding surbuban competitors. Of course, a lot of this weighted pupil unit ends up funding high salaried district administrators and doesn't ever make it to the classroom at all. I call it the raping and pillaging of the urban poor.

Then there are poor districts where the schools are definitely underfunded, and where students aren't getting a lot of home support. Targeted utilization of programs like Americorps is a great way of getting more adults per child into the classroom, but some of those schools need additional funds to allow access to the arts, music, and sports.

I'm not going to lie...urban school districts often appear over-funded (but the funds aren't utilized properly). Rural school districts are often under-funded, and this applies to both poor black and white schools.
 
I think that some generationally poor people do inherit their inabilities from their parents. Yes, as a rule I think the lower classes contain people less intellectually endowed, and in some cases there is a genetic component, but it's hard to separate that out from the cultural deprivations that these kids suffer. They don't get exposed to books or a culture of enjoying them. They don't get exposed to adults discussing important topics, providing interesting insights, laying out plans for the future and carrying them out.

It isn't that the poor are less intellectually endowed. It's that there is little familial support for education and creative thought.

I worked with many kids, for instance, whose entire life was lived in a small section of the community. They lived 10 miles from beautiful mountains, but had never visited them. They lived close to the state capitol, but had never seen it, except from a distance. They lived near beautiful universities, but had never visited them. They'd never played a game of chess. They'd never eaten a meal that required a fork and knife. They'd seen American life on television, but never really experienced it.
 
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We recently talked about some of this in another thread. I am curious what others think are the driving factors for why the poor, both urban and rural, do so poorly in school.

I don't believe it has anything to do with poverty or class. I think it has to do with the individual student.
 
It isn't that the poor are less intellectually endowed. It's that there is little familial support for education and creative thought.

It's a chicken and egg situation in my opinion.

There is also the problem of substance abuse during pregnancy, and prematurity as well. It's a complex m multifaceted situation, with not just one explanation.
 
It's a chicken and egg situation in my opinion.

There is also the problem of substance abuse during pregnancy, and prematurity as well. It's a complex m multifaceted situation, with not just one explanation.

Well, there are some indicators in early brain research that living in a traumatic, stressful environment can actually inhibit brain development in infants.

The Leadership Council - The Effect of Childhood Trauma on Brain Development

So, it's probably a chicken. The parent determines the home climate, which leads to inhibited brain development in the child. And then the home climate continues to inhibit development of literacy and creative thought. And, more often than not, these kids are clustered together in schools that are also failing to teach basic literacy.
 
It isn't that the poor are less intellectually endowed. It's that there is little familial support for education and creative thought.

I worked with many kids, for instance, whose entire life was lived in a small section of the community. They lived 10 miles from beautiful mountains, but had never visited them. They lived close to the state capitol, but had never seen it, except from a distance. They lived near beautiful universities, but had never visited them. They'd never played a game of chess. They'd never eaten a meal that required a fork and knife. They'd seen American life on television, but never really experienced it.

About six month ago, I went to a testing facility in the middle of an Atlanta ghetto (its the closest one to my house, even though its still pretty far away) and there were many guys there who were taking similar tests, trying to raise above the circumstances they were born in. A more successful person was there talking to them about how people are going to try and bring them down for doing this and how to keep strong through any transition between poor and middle class.

Growing up a well-off suburbanite who never experienced this sort of thing, the who thing was kind of shocking to me. It amazed me that people would try and put people down for doing well, but with an entire community with this sort of mind set, I can see how many of these people have trouble engaging themselves.

So much of this is about culture and people not realizing what opportunities they actually do have (of course in many cases, people don't get an opportunity as well). I cannot blame them because we all have unchallenged assumptions and views. Probably the best thing we can do for people in this sort of situation is to find a way to let them know that there is something out there for them and if they apply themselves, they will be rewarded for it. So much of what surrounds them tells them the opposite. It is not solely a personal failure for these people, but a failure of an entire community.
 
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Well, there are some indicators in early brain research that living in a traumatic, stressful environment can actually inhibit brain development in infants.

The Leadership Council - The Effect of Childhood Trauma on Brain Development

So, it's probably a chicken. The parent determines the home climate, which leads to inhibited brain development in the child. And then the home climate continues to inhibit development of literacy and creative thought. And, more often than not, these kids are clustered together in schools that are also failing to teach basic literacy.

Those schools have professional, dedicated teachers who end up disillusioned after dealing with so many social problems, druggie parents, neglected kids, the list goes on and on. You can only do so much.

I know some teachers who teach in some of these schools. They routinely buy extra things, pay for field trips, etc. They are very dedicated.

One thing I wonder at is, the schools make more and more financial demands on parents these days. My kids every week need $20 for this or that field trip, money for fast food after a track meet, money for all kinds of things. I have grown kids and this pattern has escalated over the years. I have a good income, but what about kids from poor families? The schools have become less and less democratic since I attended back in the 60s and 70s.
 
I have to agree. Probably the main reason I completed college was that from as far back as I could remember, was that it was simply expected by my family. If the culture is there, than it helps create a personal drive.

High expectations yeild better results than low expectations.....
we told our kids to go to college at our expense, as it might be the only inheritance they ever get.....
 
That lack of involvement in their children's education is sad. I also found this to be disturbing and close to the "white-man's education" dilemma.
I wanted to add that this oppositional attitude is probably prevalent in poor white communities, and not limited to Black Americans.

Yes. It is as common in Appalachia as it is in urban Detroit.

#3b is disturbing. The combination of 1, 2, and 3b are all outside of school and lead's perhaps to oppositional attitudes among students. I don't think this is restricted to black students, although the causes may be dissimilar. Poor whites also have an oppositional attitude.

Indeed.

If community/cultural factors generate the oppositional attitude of a "white man's education", where the education is seen as threatening the black culture these kids grow up with (Ebonics, etc), what are the community/cultural factors in a white neighborhood that create an oppositional attitude in poor whites? I suspect it is related to a "rich boy's education" concept.
 
Growing up a well-off suburbanite who never experienced this sort of thing, the who thing was kind of shocking to me. It amazed me that people would try and put people down for doing well, but with an entire community with this sort of mind set, I can see how many of these people have trouble engaging themselves.

So much of this is about culture and people not realizing what opportunities they actually do have (of course in many cases, people don't get an opportunity as well). I cannot blame them because we all have unchallenged assumptions and views. Probably the best thing we can do for people in this sort of situation is to find a way to let them know that there is something out there for them and if they apply themselves, they will be rewarded for it. So much of what surrounds them tells them the opposite. It is not solely a personal failure for these people, but a failure of an entire community.

Yes. I agree with this.

On the other hand, nothing amazes me more than the power of one person to completely change a child's life.

A good friend of mine grew up in the inner city latino community in Salt Lake, where I worked. His mother spoke very poor English, and was rarely home, because she worked 2-3 jobs. His dad was in prison. His friends were in similar situations, and almost all of them ended up living similar lives.

ONE MAN changed his life. My friend Andy went to college on a tennis scholarship, joined the Navy, became a JAG, which paid for his law school. He told me stories about using creamers and ketchup packets from the cafeteria to make tomato soup, and that is what he lived on when he couldn't make ends meet.

But one man made all the difference for him. So, there is hope.

ksl.com - Judge Valdez Writes His Memoirs
 
If community/cultural factors generate the oppositional attitude of a "white man's education", where the education is seen as threatening the black culture these kids grow up with (Ebonics, etc), what are the community/cultural factors in a white neighborhood that create an oppositional attitude in poor whites? I suspect it is related to a "rich boy's education" concept.

When the parents are uneducated themselves, they tend to not support the child's education as a priority. That's a huge risk factor.
 
Those schools have professional, dedicated teachers who end up disillusioned after dealing with so many social problems, druggie parents, neglected kids, the list goes on and on. You can only do so much.

I know some teachers who teach in some of these schools. They routinely buy extra things, pay for field trips, etc. They are very dedicated.

One thing I wonder at is, the schools make more and more financial demands on parents these days. My kids every week need $20 for this or that field trip, money for fast food after a track meet, money for all kinds of things. I have grown kids and this pattern has escalated over the years. I have a good income, but what about kids from poor families? The schools have become less and less democratic since I attended back in the 60s and 70s.

And I know some absolutely terrible teachers who should not be in a classroom teaching kids.

Your last paragraph is important. My daughter is in the band (she's a great clarinetist). It costs $500 per year for her to participate in the band.

That's a stretch for me, and I'm not poor. How many poor families could afford to pay this?
 
Sometimes the old size 14 boot in the ass is more motivating than anything.:mrgreen:
 
Sometimes the old size 14 boot in the ass is more motivating than anything.:mrgreen:

Absolutely. I only wear a size 7, but I use it regularly with my son (metaphorically, of course).

But what about kids who don't get that? Do you really believe that the average 7 year old will motivate himself/herself without parental support and supervision?

Survey says no.
 
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