• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  • No

    Votes: 99 79.2%
  • Yes, explain

    Votes: 26 20.8%

  • Total voters
    125
Status
Not open for further replies.
No. It's about not condoning/legitimizing it as a good choice, not just a "sin" but a sinful "life style."

You say "no", but then explain "yes".

de·le·git·i·mize
Pronunciation: \-ˈji-tə-ˌmīz\
Function: transitive verb
Date: 1968

: to diminish or destroy the legitimacy, prestige, or authority of <delegitimize a government>

Delegitimize - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

It's like seperate water fountains. Gays are allowed to have water (rights), but they must drink from the "civil unions" fountain so not to taint the "marriate" fountain. That's how I see the civil unions vesrsus marriage distinction.
 
It's been noted in other polls that DP has a disproportionately large number of members that are atheist or agnostic.... yet if you look at this thread's poll, those opposed to gay marriage lead about 60 to 40 percent.

There are lots of people who are not particularly religious, or not religious at all, who are against gay marriage.

Blackdog and I both have, at the core, religious reservations that prevent us from supporting SSM. That isn't the only reason that people have against it, however. Some have concerns that this precedent will open the door for other, stranger arraingements, or for lawsuits against churches that refuse to conduct gay ceremonies.

For some it is probably simply a gut reaction that "gay" and "marriage" go togther like brussel sprouts and ice cream.

Whatever the reason, a large majority in the US still oppose it. Possibly that will change in 20 or 40 years. Possibly it won't; predicting trends can be difficult.

Well if anyone's disapproval of gay marriage comes from a gut-level discomfort similar to strange food combos, they need to wake up and treat the topic seriously before arguing against its legality. And actually, polls have found that the people who oppose gay marriage are almost overwhelmingly more religious, which is important to note. So your argument that lots of people oppose gay marriage who are not religious doesn't stand. In fact, a Gallup poll from May found that while only 27% of those whose religion is "very important" supported same-sex marriage, 71% of those who found religion to be "not important" supported it. So relatively speaking, there really aren't lots of people who aren't religious at all who are against gay marriage. There certainly are exceptions on both sides, but in general your assertion is basically false.

And there's really no denying that the larger trend has been and continues to be that acceptance of gay relationships and gay marriage is rising. It's not lightning speed, but it's changed drastically from the earliest polls on the subject from the late 1970s. So bottom line is that there is a difference in the amount of people who support and oppose gay marriage (9 percentage points), but it certainly isn't a "large majority" like you claim. And a majority of Americans don't even see anything immoral about homosexual relationships, and that number has been growing consistently as well. So while trends in general might be hard to predict, this trend sure isn't hard to predict. People are clearly supporting gay marriage more and more.

Here are some of the links, which are very interesting reads no matter which side of the debate you're on: Americans' Opposition to Gay Marriage Eases Slightly, Americans' Acceptance of Gay Relations Crosses 50% Threshold .

At any rate, demonizing those who oppose the idea of changing the definition of marriage doesn't make your cause more appealing to those who might be undecided.

Considering your reasoning behind opposing it is that it is sinful (technically you said you had religious reservations, so correct me if I'm wrong in assuming you think it's sinful), who is really the one doing the demonizing? The people who are being told they don't deserve social acceptance or legal security? I don't think so..
 
Last edited:
You say "no", but then explain "yes".

No I did not.

I don't see it as "legitimate" now. Nothing to destroy.

It's like seperate water fountains. Gays are allowed to have water (rights), but they must drink from the "civil unions" fountain so not to taint the "marriate" fountain. That's how I see the civil unions vesrsus marriage distinction.

That is a much better argument than it is a violation of church and state.

The only problem is sexual preference is not race. The fact is people can say you are born with it, but science is still out on that. No "gay gene" has been found etc. Evidence suggesting otherwise is out there, but this is by no means conclusive.

This has little to do with the debate. Unless you can show I do not have the right to support laws I see as right vs those I see as wrong. You really have no argument here.

I mean as much as I like your example, it really makes little difference.
 
Last edited:
No I did not.

I don't see it as "legitimate" now. Nothing to destroy.

Then why even bother giving them civil unions and the same rights as marriage?

That is a much better argument than it is a violation of church and state.

The only problem is sexual preference is not race. The fact is people can say you are born with it, but science is still out on that. No "gay gene" has been found etc. Evidence suggesting otherwise is out there, but this is by no means conclusive.

It doesn't really matter if they are born gay or choose to be gay. It's about two same-sex individuals' liberty to enter into a marriage with the rights that heterosexuals currently have. As it would not harm one other person, there is no need to restrict them from this institution. There is no need to give it another title as each marriage is a personal institution that doesn't affect other peoples' institutions.

This has little to do with the debate. Unless you can show I do not have the right to support laws I see as right vs those I see as wrong. You really have no argument here.

This thread isn't titled "Blackdog, does he have the right to choose whether to support laws or not?". It's "Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?" You've done this with other people. I'm on topic. You are changing topics.

I mean as much as I like your example, it really makes little difference.

Thanks.

Sexual orientation should not be a discriminating factor as far as the government is concerned.
 
It's like seperate water fountains. Gays are allowed to have water (rights), but they must drink from the "civil unions" fountain so not to taint the "marriate" fountain. That's how I see the civil unions vesrsus marriage distinction.

Or like separate restrooms. Like how men are allowed to use the restroom (right) but they have to use the "men's" restroom as opposed to the "women's" restroom.
 
You say "no", but then explain "yes".



It's like seperate water fountains. Gays are allowed to have water (rights), but they must drink from the "civil unions" fountain so not to taint the "marriate" fountain. That's how I see the civil unions vesrsus marriage distinction.


"Separate but equal is inherently unequal."

- US Supreme Court, 1951, Brown v. Board of Education
 
Or like separate restrooms. Like how men are allowed to use the restroom (right) but they have to use the "men's" restroom as opposed to the "women's" restroom.

No, women and men have seperate bathrooms for security reasons. It's not practical to put police officers in every restroom.
 
No, women and men have seperate bathrooms for security reasons. It's not practical to put police officers in every restroom.

And it is practical to put police officers next to every drinking fountain?
 
"Separate but equal is inherently unequal."

- US Supreme Court, 1951, Brown v. Board of Education

Which is why men and women now use the same restrooms...
 
No, women and men have seperate bathrooms for security reasons. It's not practical to put police officers in every restroom.

Meh. It's not a security issue.
I think it's a holdover from a previous era. A matter of archaic "propriety". An anachronism.
Nobody's complained vocally enough, so it hasn't changed.

I've used men's restrooms on numerous occasions without any issues.
Cleaning staff- of both sexes- enter both restrooms numerous times per shift in order to clean them, without mishap.
If it were a "security issue", mothers wouldn't allow their seven-year-old sons to go use the men's restroom alone while they wait outside the door.
Women don't send their elementary-school-aged children alone into places that they feel are not safe for they themselves to enter.

If someone were penalized in some way for entering the wrong restroom, and the matter went to the Supreme Court... they'd rule that both sexes have the right to use any public restroom.
 
Which is why men and women now use the same restrooms...

It's a matter of propriety, like men not being "allowed" to wear skirts to the office.
It's not a matter of law.
It's voluntary self-segregation.
There is no law against entering the wrong restroom.
Some extra-paranoid moms continue to bring their sons into the women's restroom until the kids are practically old enough to shave. Nobody cares.

If the matter were brought before the SC, it would be ruled unconstitutional to forbid someone access to a public restroom on the basis of their sex.
But since there is no law against entering and using any public restroom you wish, and the segregation is entirely voluntary, there's nothing to rule on.
 
I don't disagree with any of that. I'm just pointing out that restrooms are separate but equal whether that segregation is voluntary or not. According to the Supreme Court, one gender is being voluntarily discriminated against, but I honestly couldn't tell you which.

And while it may not be a law that men stay out of the women's restroom, public restrooms are still divided. One has "Women" on the door and one has "Men" on the door. If public courthouses had three restrooms, one that said "White men" one that said "White women" and one that said "Coloured People" would that be ok so long as there wasn't actually a law that forbade black men from entering the "White women's" restroom?
 
Then why even bother giving them civil unions and the same rights as marriage?

Because it would at least give them the same legal protection under the law.

It doesn't really matter if they are born gay or choose to be gay. It's about two same-sex individuals' liberty to enter into a marriage with the rights that heterosexuals currently have. As it would not harm one other person, there is no need to restrict them from this institution. There is no need to give it another title as each marriage is a personal institution that doesn't affect other peoples' institutions.

If it did not matter, why is it always mentioned? If people are going to continually compare it to race, as you did, then you are wrong.

Sorry I have repeated what? 35 to 40 times at least my own position. No real need to repeat it again.

This thread isn't titled "Blackdog, does he have the right to choose whether to support laws or not?". It's "Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?" You've done this with other people. I'm on topic. You are changing topics.

I am not changing anything. A comparison to the civil rights movement is not a good argument. This is not about race.

I have already said why it is not about race and you said it does not matter. So again this has nothing to do with my right to do whatever I think is necessary legally to stop gay marriage. Unless something trumps my rights as a citizen, it is done.

Sexual orientation should not be a discriminating factor as far as the government is concerned.

I agree. Does not change the fact I would vote against it if it came to that.
 
There is no law against entering the wrong restroom.

Yes their is. It is called public indecency. We arrested 2 individuals on 2 separate occasions. The fact is most people do not report it as it is an accident most of the time.
 
I don't disagree with any of that. I'm just pointing out that restrooms are separate but equal whether that segregation is voluntary or not.

And there's no point in pointing that out.
The law can't do anything about the fact that most males and females prefer not to urinate and defecate together in a room with strangers of the opposite sex, and so businesses and public buildings often choose to accommodate their preference not to do so, out of courtesy, by creating two different rooms.

Just like the Supreme Court can't do anything about the fact that a cluster of black kids choose to hang out behind the gym during lunch hour at the high school, or that Asians appear to have set up camp in the University library. Or the fact that shop class has no females in it, while home economics has only two males on roll, and they're both gay.

Schools are integrated by law. This law was necessary, because they were once- in the recent past- segregated, by law.
There is no law that says each classroom in the school, or each table in the cafeteria, must contain a certain quota of blacks, whites, asians and hispanics (or a certain quota of males and females).
Students are free to self-segregate, within this integrated school framework, if they so desire.
Or not, if they so desire. Nobody really cares, because it doesn't really matter. The law certainly doesn't care.

Males using women's restrooms and women using men's restrooms was never against the law, per se.
Men and women did not used to be segregated by law, ergo no law saying they must now integrate is necessary. Nobody was ever stopping them in the first place.
If someone attempts to stop an individual from using a certain restroom because of his or her gender, and that individual cares enough to take the matter through the court system, it would eventually go all the way to the Supreme Court, where the Court would rule that such gender discrimination is not allowed.
There would then be a legal precedent for people of either gender using either restroom.

But since nobody has yet tried to stop them, there is no such precedent, because the matter has never come up, you see.
If and when it does, it will be dealt with by the court.
Right now there is no law prohibiting people of any gender using any public restroom, and so there's no need for a law saying they can. They can. There's no law against it.
What there is, is a social stigma- not a legal prohibition- against it. A stigma which is slowly eroding away over time, to the point that now the majority of people- if they have to go really bad and 'their' restroom is occupied- will simply use the other restroom without giving it much thought, and nobody thinks anything of it.
What do you expect the courts to do, forcibly integrate public restrooms?
They've never been segregated, except in our own minds.
Free yourself from your inhibitions. :shrug:

Somebody ought to declare a national "everybody use the wrong public restroom" day. :lol:
 
Last edited:
Yes their is. It is called public indecency. We arrested 2 individuals on 2 separate occasions. The fact is most people do not report it as it is an accident most of the time.

Yes, sometimes I forget that I've lived my entire life in what is probably one of the most liberal cities in the entire United States. It affects my perspective.

At least one state still has a law against "adultery" on the books.
A number of municipalities have legal prohibitions against using profanity.
Some towns have outlawed pitbulls; others have outlawed skateboarding.
Hell, "sodomy" (legal definition: any form of sexual penetration other than vaginal/penile, so... no blowjobs) was against the law in Texas until 2001.

As I said in my first post on the matter, when somebody cares enough to take the matter all the way to the Supreme Court, they will rule that any individual of any sex (including transsexed individuals) has the right to use any public restroom, and that will become federal law.

Right now, there is no federal law against it, and so wacked-out townships have the right to make up their own wingnut "laws" about it, along with laws against whistling on Sundays and wearing baggy jeans and backward baseball caps.
When someone challenges the law, a legal precedent will be set at a federal level, and then said wacked-out townships will no longer have the right to prohibit people from using public restrooms on the basis of their sex.
 
Last edited:
Because it would at least give them the same legal protection under the law.

Then it would be fair to say that your position is "separate but equal".

If it did not matter, why is it always mentioned? If people are going to continually compare it to race, as you did, then you are wrong.

I didn't compare it to race. I likened it to an example of separate but equal discrimination that happened to be employed against blacks.

Homosexuals are a protected class against discrimination. It doesn't matter why they are gay. It doesn't have to be race based. It's the discrimination that is important. The discrimination against religion would earn the same comparison and the religious aren't born that way.

Sorry I have repeated what? 35 to 40 times at least my own position. No real need to repeat it again.

You believe in separate but equal status because it's a "sinful 'lifestyle'".

I am not changing anything. A comparison to the civil rights movement is not a good argument. This is not about race.

Civil rights doesn't only apply to race.

I agree. Does not change the fact I would vote against it if it came to that.

Civil rights should never be put to a vote.
 
I don't disagree with any of that. I'm just pointing out that restrooms are separate but equal whether that segregation is voluntary or not. According to the Supreme Court, one gender is being voluntarily discriminated against, but I honestly couldn't tell you which.

And while it may not be a law that men stay out of the women's restroom, public restrooms are still divided. One has "Women" on the door and one has "Men" on the door. If public courthouses had three restrooms, one that said "White men" one that said "White women" and one that said "Coloured People" would that be ok so long as there wasn't actually a law that forbade black men from entering the "White women's" restroom?

Going to the bathroom is a right????

Seriously, this is one of the silliest non-sequitors that come up when debates like this happen.
 
The only problem is sexual preference is not race. The fact is people can say you are born with it, but science is still out on that. No "gay gene" has been found etc. Evidence suggesting otherwise is out there, but this is by no means conclusive.

This has little to do with the debate. Unless you can show I do not have the right to support laws I see as right vs those I see as wrong. You really have no argument here.

I mean as much as I like your example, it really makes little difference.

Why does it matter so much if someone is born gay or if it is an unconscience choice? Religion is a choice, and it is completely protected by antidiscrimination laws. I've used this example several times before in other threads. It would be considered discriminatory for anyone to make a law that prohibited people of a certain religion from getting married. It would also be considered discriminatory to make any law that prevented two people of different religions to get married. It wouldn't matter how many people felt that it was immoral. It wouldn't matter how many people wanted to call it something else. Heck, it wouldn't even matter if every member of the church took a vow of celibacy or even if they had to all be either naturally or medically infertile to join the church. It would still be considered discrimination.
 
I don't disagree with any of that. I'm just pointing out that restrooms are separate but equal whether that segregation is voluntary or not.

Actually... Most places have signs, but it doesn't mean much. There are several buildings I know of where although the rooms are signed differently, it's considered an option so that those that self identify as a particular gender can use the restroom they choose to.

I'm not certain what the legal status of those restrooms are, but in those environments the restrooms are left to the discretion of the person using them.
 
Then it would be fair to say that your position is "separate but equal".

No. It is separate and remain separate, two men or two women don’t make a marriage. It is two people cohabitating for the purpose of partnership.

I am however not a person without a heart. If two people love each other, when it comes to visitation and all the other legal perks of a marriage, I don’t want to see them denied. This however does not support the life style, condone it or legitimize it as being OK.

I didn't compare it to race. I likened it to an example of separate but equal discrimination that happened to be employed against blacks.

No discrimination here. Gays can marry whomever they want. As long as they are not family, animals, more than one person and of the opposite sex etc. Many restrictions apply to marriage and it is in no way discriminatory.

Homosexuals are a protected class against discrimination. It doesn't matter why they are gay. It doesn't have to be race based. It's the discrimination that is important. The discrimination against religion would earn the same comparison and the religious aren't born that way.

Read above.

You believe in separate but equal status because it's a "sinful 'lifestyle'".

No. I believe in separate and stay separate as far as marriage goes.

Don’t take that the wrong way. It has nothing to do with actual separation as in apartheid etc. Just not letting two men or women get married.

It is sad I even had to clarify that statement. Not for you IT, but the nut fringe that would jump in with claims of bigotry etc.


Civil rights doesn't only apply to race.

I agree, but this is not relevant to me as they have no right to marry as far as I am concerned.

Civil rights should never be put to a vote.

I agree, but they have not right.
 
Last edited:
Why does it matter so much if someone is born gay or if it is an unconscience choice?

I don't know. Other people keep comparing it to the civil rights movement. So as far as I am concerned it does not apply either way.

Religion is a choice, and it is completely protected by antidiscrimination laws. I've used this example several times before in other threads. It would be considered discriminatory for anyone to make a law that prohibited people of a certain religion from getting married. It would also be considered discriminatory to make any law that prevented two people of different religions to get married. It wouldn't matter how many people felt that it was immoral. It wouldn't matter how many people wanted to call it something else. Heck, it wouldn't even matter if every member of the church took a vow of celibacy or even if they had to all be either naturally or medically infertile to join the church. It would still be considered discrimination.

Restrictions on marriage already apply. You cannot for instance marry more than one person. A sister cannot marry a brother etc. Many restrictions based on mental capacity etc.

So where do we draw the line? I have drawn my line, I am not willing to let anyone cross it on this issue.
 
I don't know. Other people keep comparing it to the civil rights movement. So as far as I am concerned it does not apply either way.



Restrictions on marriage already apply. You cannot for instance marry more than one person. A sister cannot marry a brother etc. Many restrictions based on mental capacity etc.

So where do we draw the line? I have drawn my line, I am not willing to let anyone cross it on this issue.

You have to draw the line where there is harm to others by actions.

I would gladly be fighting for polygamy, as long as certain rules went with it about age limits and it being more of a joint marriage, rather than one of a couple having multiple wives/husbands. I think it is just as discriminatory to restrict how many people can get married as it is to restrict which adults can get married.

Incestual marriage is restricted because generational incest can cause birth defects. If there was a restriction on it similar to some state laws concerning first cousins getting married that ensured no procreation, then I wouldn't stop it. Although, truthfully, civil marriage is pretty unnecessary concerning incest, since immediate blood relatives have most of the rights/privileges that come from a civil marriage. The main point of civil marriage is to make someone who is not a blood relative legally related to you. That wouldn't be necessary in the case of brothers and sisters.

Age restrictions, although you didn't list them, I will address them, are in place because we do not consider a person old enough to enter into a legal contract until they are an adult, 18.

I have addressed these before. The government shouldn't be using marriage to restrict legal adults from making unions that make adults a legal part of another adult's family.
 
Last edited:
You have to draw the line where there is harm to others by actions.

I would gladly be fighting for polygamy, as long as certain rules went with it about age limits and it being more of a joint marriage, rather than one of a couple having multiple wives/husbands. I think it is just as discriminatory to restrict how many people can get married as it is to restrict which adults can get married.

Incestual marriage is restricted because generational incest can cause birth defects. If there was a restriction on it similar to some state laws concerning first cousins getting married that ensured no procreation, then I wouldn't stop it. Although, truthfully, civil marriage is pretty unnecessary concerning incest, since immediate blood relatives have most of the rights/privileges that come from a civil marriage. The main point of civil marriage is to make someone who is not a blood relative legally related to you. That wouldn't be necessary in the case of brothers and sisters.

Age restrictions, although you didn't list them, I will address them, are in place because we do not consider a person old enough to enter into a legal contract until they are an adult, 18.

I have addressed these before. The government shouldn't be using marriage to restrict legal adults from making unions that make adults a legal part of another adult's family.



Civil Unions would accomplish everything you're talking about.
 
You have to draw the line where there is harm to others by actions.

No I am not. So by not supporting polygamy laws I am hurting people? By not supporting marriage between family members I am hurting someone?

Not likely.

I would gladly be fighting for polygamy, as long as certain rules went with it about age limits and it being more of a joint marriage, rather than one of a couple having multiple wives/husbands.

So you would support it with restrictions? That would be hurting people wouldn’t it?

I think it is just as discriminatory to restrict how many people can get married as it is to restrict which adults can get married.

And I think it’s not. So where do we go from here?

Incestual marriage is restricted because generational incest can cause birth defects. If there was a restriction on it similar to some state laws concerning first cousins getting married that ensured no procreation, then I wouldn't stop it. Although, truthfully, civil marriage is pretty unnecessary concerning incest, since immediate blood relatives have most of the rights/privileges that come from a civil marriage. The main point of civil marriage is to make someone who is not a blood relative legally related to you. That wouldn't be necessary in the case of brothers and sisters.

So what? You are placing restrictions on people. You are hurting someone.

Sorry I know that sounds bad, but I am just being a little ****. Forgive the sarcasm.

Age restrictions, although you didn't list them, I will address them, are in place because we do not consider a person old enough to enter into a legal contract until they are an adult, 18.

Why is it 18? Pretty arbitrary considering I know 16 and 17 year olds more mature than allot of 20 year olds.

So you are OK with restrictions as long as you find them acceptable?

I have addressed these before. The government shouldn't be using marriage to restrict legal adults from making unions that make adults a legal part of another adult's family.

Yes they should.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom