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Should a divorce court be able to forbid one parent to take a child to church?

Should a divorce court be able to forbid one parent to take a child to church?


  • Total voters
    46
Five year olds aren't mature enough to decide if they believe in God or not.
 
Five year olds aren't mature enough to decide if they believe in God or not.

Yet he did. He might change his mind later on, but he and I have had many talks about this particular subject, so I know his thoughts on it.

Sure they aren't as developed as an adult's reasoning, but it still happened.
 
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Yet he did.

No he didn't, he gave an answer when pressured to do so but understands neither the context of either faith or the consequences of either option. He was pressured into blurting out an answer. He did not make an informed rational choice with a sound mind.
 
I'm curious to hear your 5 year old's reasoning for not believing in God.
 
I find it very odd that you think he is mature enough to make such an important decision.

He went and made this decision on his own, regardless of what I or his mom thinks or the fact that we drag him to church every week. However, we did get him to finally stop trashing Sunday school rooms, which is a good thing.

I find it amazing that you think a parent can make such a personal decision for their children. All they can do is try to influence them to go in what they believe is the right direction and hope the kid adrees.
 
He went and made this decision on his own, regardless of what I or his mom thinks or the fact that we drag him to church every week. However, we did get him to finally stop trashing Sunday school rooms, which is a good thing.

What exactly did he say when he made this important decision?
 
I'm curious to hear your 5 year old's reasoning for not believing in God.

If option 1 is Catholicism and option 2 is Judaism, then choosing not to believe in God means this 5 year old is typical of children born of mixed parents in that they generally do not respect either faith.
 
I find it amazing that you think a parent can make such a personal decision for their children. All they can do is try to influence them to go in what they believe is the right direction and hope the kid adrees.

When did I say a parent can make that decision for a child? I completely agree with you.

Except for the fact that you think a kindergartner understands the complex world of faith, consequence and spiritual beliefs. :shock:
 
What exactly did he say when he made this important decision?

I do not believe I was present when he made the decision. But the words "God is not real" "Jesus is not real" and other similar things have come out of his mouth multiple times.
 
I do not believe I was present when he made the decision. But the words "God is not real" "Jesus is not real" and other similar things have come out of his mouth multiple times.

Those are signs that he is not socialized into either faith. They are not signs that he made an affirmative decision to be Atheist.
 
Those are signs that he is not socialized into either faith. They are not signs that he made an affirmative decision to be Atheist.

Not to mention he might be hearing that at school or on television. Thinking that a 5 year old can make that decision on his own is beyond ridiculous. They're not little adults. They're KIDS.
 
When did I say a parent can make that decision for a child? I completely agree with you.

Except for the fact that you think a kindergartner understands the complex world of faith, consequence and spiritual beliefs. :shock:

How well he understands it is irrelevant. He has made a decision on what he believes is a sound basis.

To answer your question, it probably has to do with it being 1:15 AM here and me putting other statements you posted together to make me believe that you did in fact post that.
 
Not to mention he might be hearing that at school or on television. Thinking that a 5 year old can make that decision on his own is beyond ridiculous. They're not little adults. They're KIDS.

Well your opinion of its validity is not important. It has happened. Personally, I figure he is going to change his mind several times as he gets older. We all do. However, as it is right now, he is very committed to his belief.
 
How well he understands it is irrelevant. He has made a decision on what he believes is a sound basis.

To answer your question, it probably has to do with it being 1:15 AM here and me putting other statements you posted together to make me believe that you did in fact post that.

How well he understands is everything.

And I don't understand the second part of this post.
 
How well he understands is everything.

And I don't understand the second part of this post.

Show me someone who understands these things perfectly. I certainly don't and I learn new things every day. All anyone can do is make the best decision they can given what facts they know, their experiences, and their influences. It is no different between an adult and a child.

The second part was me saying that I think I read into your post a bit because it is past midnight here and I am sleepy.
 
Well your opinion of its validity is not important. It has happened. Personally, I figure he is going to change his mind several times as he gets older. We all do. However, as it is right now, he is very committed to his belief.

Heh. I'm just dumbfounded that you're speaking about a FIVE YEAR OLD like this. He's FIVE. A kindergartner. He can barely read a book by himself (I'm assuming) and you think he's mature enough to be "very committed" to a spiritual belief???? Ridiculous. The only thing kindergartners are "very committed" to is watching as many cartoons as possible.
 
Heh. I'm just dumbfounded that you're speaking about a FIVE YEAR OLD like this. He's FIVE. A kindergartner. He can barely read a book by himself (I'm assuming) and you think he's mature enough to be "very committed" to a spiritual belief???? Ridiculous. The only thing kindergartners are "very committed" to is watching as many cartoons as possible.

:shrug:

He is an opinionated child who feels strongly about everything, whether he understands it or not. That is just his personality.
 
:shrug:

He is an opinionated child who feels strongly about everything, whether he understands it or not. That is just his personality.

So you agree that he doesn't understand it at all. Good. Why would you say your child is an atheist when you know he doesn't understand what he's saying?
 
So you agree that he doesn't understand it at all. Good. Why would you say your child is an atheist when you know he doesn't understand what he's saying?

You misunderstood my post. He has an opinion on everything, regardless of understanding it. For example, he very strongly that leather comes from chickens and so far I have not been able to sway that belief, despite some youtube videos. He doesn't understand all the facts, but he has an opinion.

He understands the difference between something being real and imaginary and whether something exists or not. So, he has the basic concepts down. Also, I think he will likely change his opinion as he grows and different regions of his brain become more mature and he is able to use more adult modes of thought. His ultimate opinion might stay the same, but the reasons behind it might change. Another alternative is that his opinion might change.

However, all of that is also irrelevant. Right now he has a strong opinion, justified or not. He has made a choice, well thought out or not.
 
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You misunderstood my post. He has an opinion on everything, regardless of understanding it. For example, he very strongly that leather comes from chickens and so far I have not been able to sway that belief, despite some youtube videos. He doesn't understand all the facts, but he has an opinion.

He understands the difference between something being real and imaginary and whether something exists or not. So, he has the basic concepts down.

I understand you perfectly. I'm a teacher. I know how kids think. You admitted that he doesn't understand spiritual concepts, yet you say that your child is an atheist. That makes no sense. If he doesn't understand it, why would you put that label on him?
 
I understand you perfectly. I'm a teacher. I know how kids think. You admitted that he doesn't understand spiritual concepts, yet you say that your child is an atheist. That makes no sense. If he doesn't understand it, why would you put that label on him?

He does not think there is a deity. Therefore he is an atheist.

I have asked him what God was and he replied "the person who made everything around me." So he does have a concept of a deity.

Again, as I have stated, it is my belief that he bases his opinion on what I would consider to be childish reasons and his brain is not fully mature. When he informed me of his thoughts, I was astounded myself and I did ask him some probing questions. However, I am pretty convinced he understands the basics well enough that I can label him.
 
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It's probably more that she hates her ex, and it's a way to be spiteful to him.

And he was probably sticking it to her by getting the girl baptized... :rolleyes:

According to the article...

The couple married in 2004. Joseph Reyes was Catholic, but he converted to Judaism to please his in-laws. He has said the decision wasn't "voluntary." Despite his conversion, Reyes, 35, said he never stopped practicing Catholicism.

When the marriage fell apart, Rebecca Reyes, 34, got custody of their daughter. The girl, now 3, has been raised Jewish and attended a Jewish preschool. Her father decided to baptize his daughter without consulting his wife.
Seems to me that the Catholic father acknowledged his daughter as Jewish and fully acquiesced in regards to her religious upbringing. It doesn’t reflect very well on him that his daughter’s religion became contentious only after he lost parental custody.

Although the article does not specifically mention a time-frame, it would seem to me that the husband converted to Judaism in order to marry Rebecca. I would imagine that Rebecca (and her family) insisted on this in order to validate and solidify a preference for traditional Jewish law in regards to marriage and family matters. In other words, dad tacitly acknowledged that any offspring would be considered Jewish in all matters regarding faith.

Although I believe he has the legal right to introduce his daughter to Catholicism, I also think his motive is perhaps underhanded and born of spite. Rebecca should also probably have insisted on a pre-nuptial legal contract with heavy breachment penalties.
 
What's your opinion? Here's the story:

Divorce Battle: Joseph Reyes Pleads Not Guilty For Taking Daughter to Church - ABC News

The parents are getting divorced and the wife is Jewish, the husband Catholic. The mother wants the child raised Jewish, the husband, not previously devout, got the little girl baptized, the mother got a restraining order, yada yada...

If you had taken the time to read the full article you linked, you would have realized it was old, and that the case has already been ruled on. A simple 30 second google search yields this: Joseph Reyes Can Take Jewish Daughter To Catholic Church, Judge Rules In Dad's Favor

A high-profile divorce case was resolved by a Cook County judge Tuesday, as a man who claims he returned to his Catholic roots after divorcing a Jewish woman was granted permission to take his 3-year-old daughter to Catholic church, despite his ex-wife's wishes.

Joseph Reyes, who baptized his 3-year-old daughter without her mother's permission, faced jail time after a Cook County judge granted his ex a temporary restraining order barring him from exposing the child to any religion other than Judaism.

But on Tuesday, Cook County Judge Renee Goldfarb said Reyes can take his daughter to "church services during his visitation time if he so chooses," she wrote in the divorce decree. "This court will also order that Joseph have visitation with Ela every year on Christmas and Easter." The Chicago Sun-Times reports:
 
But on Tuesday, Cook County Judge Renee Goldfarb said Reyes can take his daughter to "church services during his visitation time if he so chooses," she wrote in the divorce decree. "This court will also order that Joseph have visitation with Ela every year on Christmas and Easter." The Chicago Sun-Times reports
Irony! Settled by a Jewish judge :2razz:
 
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