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Dictionaries no NOT contain factual information

Dictionaries do NOT contain factual information

  • TRUE: Dictionaries do NOT contain factual information

    Votes: 7 20.6%

  • FALSE: Sure they do.

    Votes: 27 79.4%
  • Total voters
    34
Chuz Life said:
Saying (claiming) that a human fetus is human therefore a human fetus is A human is not circular logic by any of the examples given here.
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Actually, it is the way you just stated it. But that's not even the argument in question. Which means you just committed a straw man too. The fallacies keep piling up.

The argument is actually that "a human fetus is human, and therefore it's a human, i.e. a person." I agree that's not circular logic. It's the fallacy of composition. My hair is human hair, but it's not a human person either.
 
Last edited:
misterman said:
Fallacy: Composition

In this case, just because something is "human" doesn't mean it is "a human."
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Exactly. You could see a pile of crap on the floor and say, "Wow, that appears to be human feces."
You're not saying that the pile of crap is "a human".
 
1069 said:
Exactly. You could see a pile of crap on the floor and say, "Wow, that appears to be human feces."
You're not saying that the pile of crap is "a human".
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Well, I thought that too until I met a few posters on this forum. :shock:
 
How did this thread get derailed into an abortion / personhood debate?

Stay focused people.

THIS thread / poll is about whether or not dictionaries contain 'factual' information.
 
Chuz Life said:
How did this thread get derailed into an abortion / personhood debate?

Stay focused people.

THIS thread / poll is about whether or not dictionaries contain 'factual' information.
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Something being factual does not mean it is being used in proper context. Which is the point all the threads you've made in the Polls section seem to miss.
 
Hatuey said:
Something being factual does not mean it is being used in proper context. Which is the point all the threads you've made in the Polls section seem to miss.
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Baseless assertion noted.

You have not provided any evidence to support this claim of yours.

That said,...

If you would like for me to explain the context of any point I have tried to make, I'll be happy to do so.
 
Chuz Life said:
Baseless assertion noted.

You have not provided any evidence to support this claim of yours.

That said,...

If you would like for me to explain the context of any point I have tried to make, I'll be happy to do so.
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noted................:mrgreen:
 
Chuz Life said:
Baseless assertion noted.

You have not provided any evidence to support this claim of yours.

That said,...
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http://www.debatepolitics.com/conspiracy-theories/67656-conception-and-birth.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/63104-global-warming-vs-abortion-true-false.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/64644-single-celled-human-zygote-organism.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/abortion/65635-proof.html

Want to try this again?

If you would like for me to explain the context of any point I have tried to make, I'll be happy to do so.
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No time for your word games tonight. :2wave:
 
Dictionaries often reflect factual information that a society possesses, so in that sense they "contain" facts.

But, their purpose is not to establish what is factual. Therefore, if a dispute arises as to a potential fact contained in a dictionary, said dictionary is NOT an authority on facts. It cannot be used to establish facts, in other words. In that sense they don't contain factual information, but a better way to state the same thing would be to simply say "Dictionaries are not authorities on facts".

So, if you're looking to Dictionaries as authorities as to what is factual, you are going to be seriously misled.
 
Chuz Life said:
Looks like an interesting poll question.

Dictionaries do NOT contain factual information

A: True

B: False
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If you want to get philosophical about it - words and their definitions and usage, as well as grammar (so on, so forth) - are not facts.

They are accepted norms of language or rules of society, etc etc - not provable facts as in "My Dad is my biological father" which is a statement that can be proven in some type of test and documented quite thoroughly.

As far as words go - you can prove that a people, culture or society used ___ word always in ___ way. That would be a statement of fact. But in the way a dictionary defines them - no - they are bold statements or agreed on terminology.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
If you want to get philosophical about it - words and their definitions and usage, as well as grammar (so on, so forth) - are not facts.

They are accepted norms of language or rules of society, etc etc - not provable facts as in "My Dad is my biological father" which is a statement that can be proven in some type of test and documented quite thoroughly.

As far as words go - you can prove that a people, culture or society used ___ word always in ___ way. That would be a statement of fact. But in the way a dictionary defines them - no - they are bold statements or agreed on terminology.
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Exactly the point I made on page two:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls...ain-factual-information-2.html#post1058708675

No. A dictionary contains no objective facts (and therefore, it contains no facts, since a subjective fact would be a contradiction in terms).
Language is a social construct, and it is not static. It evolves constantly.
 
But there are mounds of facts in a dictionary. Just thumb through one. True there are word "definitions" but, there are many facts associated with word defs.

Open one up and see all the "facts" on any one page.
 
ADK_Forever said:
But there are mounds of facts in a dictionary. Just thumb through one. True there are word "definitions" but, there are many facts associated with word defs.

Open one up and see all the "facts" on any one page.
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It is both amazing and funny that this poll has resulted in this debate.

No wonder we (many of us) can't agree on anything else.

fac·tu·al
1. of or pertaining to facts; concerning facts: factual accuracy.
2. based on or restricted to facts: a factual report.

Dictionaries are not factual,... who knew?
 
Chuz Life said:
It is both amazing and funny that this poll has resulted in this debate.

No wonder we (many of us) can't agree on anything else.

fac·tu·al
1. of or pertaining to facts; concerning facts: factual accuracy.
2. based on or restricted to facts: a factual report.

Dictionaries are not factual,... who knew?
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Main Entry: fact
Pronunciation: \ˈfakt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin factum, from neuter of factus, past participle of facere
Date: 15th century

1 : a thing done: as a obsolete : feat b : crime <accessory after the fact> c archaic : action
2 archaic : performance, doing
3 : the quality of being actual : actuality <a question of fact hinges on evidence>
4 a : something that has actual existence <space exploration is now a fact> b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage>
5 : a piece of information presented as having objective reality

— in fact : in truth

Fact - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Again: nope.
 
1069 said:
Main Entry: fact
Pronunciation: \ˈfakt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin factum, from neuter of factus, past participle of facere
Date: 15th century

1 : a thing done: as a obsolete : feat b : crime <accessory after the fact> c archaic : action
2 archaic : performance, doing
3 : the quality of being actual : actuality <a question of fact hinges on evidence>
4 a : something that has actual existence <space exploration is now a fact> b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage>
5 : a piece of information presented as having objective reality

— in fact : in truth

Fact - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Again: nope.
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Mr. President! (gavel pounding in background) Mr. president,... (Cspan viewers leaning in),..... Mr. President,... I would like to note that my estranged collegue has just used a quote from a dictionary of the word "fact" in an effort to prove the dictionary she quoted has no 'factual information.'

Mr. President,... to my estranged collegues,.. I would ask,... if the dictionary soes not contain factual information,.... why then are you trying to use the dictionary and one of it's definitions to bolster your case?

Do you realise you can't do so without also bolstering mine?
 
ADK_Forever said:
But there are mounds of facts in a dictionary. Just thumb through one. True there are word "definitions" but, there are many facts associated with word defs.

Open one up and see all the "facts" on any one page.
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The fact remains that dictionaries don't aim to be authorities on what facts exist, and merely reflect what the writers believe to be the consensus view. They aren't even very careful about what they imply certain facts to be. If you use dictionaries as your authority as to 'what the facts are' you're going to be misled.
 
Dezaad said:
The fact remains that dictionaries don't aim to be authorities on what facts exist, and merely reflect what the writers believe to be the consensus view. They aren't even very careful about what they imply certain facts to be. If you use dictionaries as your authority as to 'what the facts are' you're going to be misled.
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Not that I accept your premise (I don't)

Please site a reference where "facts" are recorded. A reference that is not determined by consensus in the way that dictionaries are.
 
Many word definitions include scientific, geographical, historical, etc. facts as additional definition and context for many words. Like I said, just open a dictionary up and start reading. There are facts everywhere.

For instance, look up "America".

From dictionary.com:

A·mer·i·ca
   /əˈmɛrɪkə/ Show Spelled[uh-mer-i-kuh] Show IPA
–noun
1. United States.
2. North America.
3. South America.
4. Also called the Americas. North and South America, considered together.

United States
 
–noun
a republic in the N Western Hemisphere comprising 48 conterminous states, the District of Columbia, and alaska in North America, and Hawaii in the N Pacific. 267,954,767; conterminous United States, 3,022,387 sq. mi. (7,827,982 sq. km); with Alaska and Hawaii, 3,615,122 sq. mi. (9,363,166 sq. km). Capital: Washington, D.C. Abbreviation: U.S., US
Also called United States of America, America.

—Related forms
pro-U·nit·ed States, adjective
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There's a few facts just in the pronunciation and then in the actual definition.

Then, from some dictionaries...
Word Origin & History

America
1507, in Cartographer Martin Waldseemüller's treatise "Cosmographiae Introductio," from Mod.L. Americanus, after Amerigo Vespucci (1454-1512) who made two trips to the New World as a navigator and claimed to have discovered it. His published works put forward the idea that it was a new continent, and he was first to call it Novus Mundus "New World." Amerigo is more easily Latinized than Vespucci. The name Amerigo is Gmc., said to derive from Goth. Amalrich, lit. "work-ruler." The O.E. form of the name has come down as surnames Emmerich, Emery, etc. The It. fem. form merged into Amelia. Amerika "U.S. society viewed as racist, fascist, oppressive, etc." first attested 1969; the spelling is Ger., but may also suggest the KKK.
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper
Cite This Source
A·mer·i·ca (ə-měr'ĭ-kə)

1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas (-kəz) The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source
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Some more contextual facts.

They're on every page of a dictionary. If a dictionary wasn't fact-filled we wouldn't be able to use it as a base for understanding words.
 
molten_dragon said:
I stand by what I said. For a dictionary to be useful, the definitions within it must reflect current usage of words. While those usages might be agreed on by large groups of people, they're still subjective.

However, I will concede that the definitions of some words seem to be pretty much fixed, and don't seem to change over time.
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molten_dragon said:
My point is that words (and their definitions) don't define what a thing IS. Therefore, dictionary definitions aren't factual information. Since the OP took my original post out of context, I'll use it as an example.

He was making the argument in the abortion forum that a human embryo, zygote, or fetus is a child for the sole reason that a medical dictionary lists something like "an unborn fetus" as one of the definitions of the word "child".

My counter argument was that just because a dictionary calls something by a certain name does not mean that it is that thing. That's why I still say that dictionaries don't contain factual information. Dictionaries tell us a lot about what things are called, and how society uses language, but that's it. They aren't a source of facts.
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Chuz Life said:
Your claim was;
molten_dragon said:
Dictionaries do NOT contain factual information. They contain subjective definitions of words that can (and do) change over time.
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Do you still hold this view?
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molten_dragon said:
Yes.

(10 char)
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Chuz Life said:
:rofl

Thanks

(remaining characters held in reserve)
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So much for the claim that you were taken out of context,... huh.
 
Well, I voted for option B.

Dictionaries do contain facts, for arbitrary definitions of "fact".

Depending, of course, on how you define "fact".

And all the other words I used.

Nothing is real; all which we consider fact is only our impressions, interpreted through our thought processes.

:mrgreen:
 
Chuz Life you should have allowed us to see exactly who picked "true" so that we can make fun of their stupidity.
 
Cilogy said:
Chuz Life you should have allowed us to see exactly who picked "true" so that we can make fun of their stupidity.
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I picked true.
 
The Mark said:
Well, I voted for option B.

Dictionaries do contain facts, for arbitrary definitions of "fact".

Depending, of course, on how you define "fact".

And all the other words I used.

Nothing is real; all which we consider fact is only our impressions, interpreted through our thought processes.

:mrgreen:
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take the red pill, and you'll see how far the rabbit hole goes
 
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