Affirmative Action

justabubba said:

you keep ignoring an essential element of AA
the individual who benefits from AA MUST be as competent as their majority competitor for the position. the qualifications they must meet are not watered down because they are of a minority race

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Yeah, sure. Except for when companies must hire a certain number of minorities.

justabubba said:

what i cannot ignore is someone who insists it is the minority culture which has the evident problem while simultaneously knowing that it is the white culture which is predominently on the dole

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But you can ignore mathematics obviously. Why don't you try looking at what percentage of blacks are on welfare compared to what percentage of whites are. Compare what percentage of blacks live in the ghetto compared to what percentage of whites. Stop acting like raw data means anything and look at it statistically.

Oh wait, that might get in the way of your preconceived notions! :roll:

Here's the problem, and the solution, rolled into one.--simply quit treating people as Groups, and treat them as individuals. We are not a group. And there is no universal group think.

Skateguy said:

Here's the problem, and the solution, rolled into one.--simply quit treating people as Groups, and treat them as individuals. We are not a group. And there is no universal group think.

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Agreed, but then again, you'd have to stop blacks from referring to themselves as the "black community" wouldn't you?

justabubba said:

you keep ignoring an essential element of AA
the individual who benefits from AA MUST be as competent as their majority competitor for the position. the qualifications they must meet are not watered down because they are of a minority race

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It may not have been designed like that, but that's exactly how it is in practice. My alma mater's law school (the University of Michigan) had a well-publicized case about letting in minorities with significantly worse scores than whites because of some AA/quota problems. Or the firefighters in New England that had a state Supreme Court rip up promotion-ranking tests because minorities placed at the very bottom under all the whites.

There are so many other cases, but you have the internet. Feel free to use it.

rivrrat said:

Yeah, sure. Except for when companies must hire a certain number of minorities.

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show me something showing where a quota was imposed

unless you can do that your comment is without substance

Gipper said:

It may not have been designed like that, but that's exactly how it is in practice. My alma mater's law school (the University of Michigan) had a well-publicized case about letting in minorities with significantly worse scores than whites because of some AA/quota problems. Or the firefighters in New England that had a state Supreme Court rip up promotion-ranking tests because minorities placed at the very bottom under all the whites.

There are so many other cases, but you have the internet. Feel free to use it.

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it's clear from your post you haven't a clue about AA, even with the internet as a resource

your profound ignorance of the firefighter case exposes you

Kali said:

I think anybody that is still racist in this day and age should be punished in some sorta way. So I guess my answer would be yes? I dunno.

I know we are not our multiple great grandparents but what are we trying to do to wipe out racism and make it better? I have to say that Affirmative Action is one of the ways?

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So what punishment would you suggest for yourself?

justabubba said:

show me something showing where a quota was imposed

unless you can do that your comment is without substance

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Go do some searches on "placement goals". You'll see a ****load of them from universities. I can't show you what every single company's placement goals are unless they post them on the internet. But I can't imagine that anyone who has been in a hiring position for very long *hasn't* been told that they needed to hire a minority to fill a position because they were low on minorities in a certain department.

The court ruled for white firefighters in New Haven, Conn., who said city officials violated their rights when it threw out the results of a promotions test on which few minorities scored well. The case drew outsize attention because President Obama's nominee for the high court, Judge Sonia Sotomayor, had been part of a unanimous panel on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit that endorsed a lower-court ruling upholding New Haven's decision.

The case was a victory for conservative groups and the firefighters, who said the city's resolution had amounted to denying promotions based on skin color. The court's conservatives prevailed in a decision that said employers needed a "strong basis in evidence" that a test is deficient before discarding the results, rather than just "raw racial statistics" that may indicate a subtle discrimination.

"No individual should face workplace discrimination based on race," Justice Anthony M. Kennedy wrote for the five-member majority.

Civil rights groups said the decision would create a hurdle for employers, especially in the public sector, seeking to diversify their workforces without violating the law.

The case has been used by Sotomayor critics as evidence that she allowed her personal preferences to influence her rulings, while her supporters said the decision was a straightforward application of court precedents.

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Looks like you should just shut your mouth and learn to read. Just like Sotomayor should learn to stop legislating from the bench.

No. It has outlived it's usefulness and is just adding to the racial divide.

rivrrat said:

Go do some searches on "placement goals". You'll see a ****load of them from universities. I can't show you what every single company's placement goals are unless they post them on the internet. But I can't imagine that anyone who has been in a hiring position for very long *hasn't* been told that they needed to hire a minority to fill a position because they were low on minorities in a certain department.

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The fact that quotas existed for years. And top law and medical schools were given places to blacks with scores that no white gained admittance with., one poster noted that being black counted more at some Ivies than being a legacy. That is true (BTW in my college class legacies had higher averages overall then non legacies) Legacy admissions fund smart but lower middle class kids being able to go to uber-expensive places like Williams or Harvard. Selecting underqualified minorities benefits no one and causes alot of resentment

Kelzie said:

No one wants to live in the ghetto. Everyone wants to be a millionaire. What divides those that make it and those that live in poverty with kids by four different guys is desire, not opportunity.

There is absolutely nothing that prevents minorities from doing well in school and being accepted to college except motivation. Affirmative action is detrimental to motivation.

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100% right

Let me give an example. A guy I went to college with-lets call him "Bobbie" went to Exeter Academy. He then got into Yale with scores that 15 white exeter students couldn't get into schools like Hamilton or Haverford with.

Bobby's father was a law professor, his brothers were at Goldman sachs or Solomon Brothers. He and I were on two sports teams-one varsity, one club. Bobby wanted to go to law school. He wanted to go to Yale. He noted all he needed was a 3.4 (If you were a white male you had to be at least in the 3.75 range and that presumed a 790-800 LSAT score).

he knew he didn't have to work all that hard. HE got a 3.4 and 690 on the LSAT

he got into Yale-no white within four deviations of that was accepted that year.

He got through-Yale is pass fail

he got hired at a big wall street firm

he was up against Jewish, Asian and White boys who had really made top grades to get there.

He lasted about a year

he might have been as smart as the white or Asian guys

he never had to train as hard to get to where they were

Do you know why a few countries win most of the medals at the olympics

its not just talent

The years I tried out for the US olympic team I was better than the top people in 98% of the countries. I wasn't good enough to make team USA

the guys who were did real well-they had to beat alot of people who were world class just to get there

They had to train hard and smart to even make our team

I beat Canada's best guys every time-same with England's Of course those teams didn't have a chance against our guys in my sport.

IF you know you can make your team running a 4.05 minute mile you are going to have a hard time competiting against a guy who has to run 3.47 to make his

if at 25 you suddenly have to train as hard as that guy, you will never catch him if he is used to it for 15 years

Kelzie said:

No one wants to live in the ghetto. Everyone wants to be a millionaire. What divides those that make it and those that live in poverty with kids by four different guys is desire, not opportunity.

There is absolutely nothing that prevents minorities from doing well in school and being accepted to college except motivation. Affirmative action is detrimental to motivation.

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So you do not think environment can hold someone down? Esp. if you have been put there by no choice of your own? It is hard to do well in school when you are starving and having to deal with people wishing to gangbang your ass or trying to get you to join gang.

You can have all the desire and motivation in the world but it is not gonna help if you are a a non-white person who is being judged and turned down due to skin color.

Cephus said:

They do fail because of their culture. When you get a culture that doesn't value education, where the norm is lots of kids by lots of fathers and the typical means of explaining why they're not doing well is to point fingers at others, that's a massive problem, but you can't actually point out that the culture is bad, the race-baiters like Sharpton will scream that you're a racist.

No, I'm just a realist.

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The same could be said of some of the Amish folks. I do not see people crying and bitching about them.

Kali said:

The same could be said of some of the Amish folks. I do not see people crying and bitching about them.

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No, not at all.

You obviously know nothing about the Amish, I mean nothing.

They take care of their own. They are tight nit family's who work very hard for each other. They also know who the father is.

Crunch said:

So what punishment would you suggest for yourself?

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I get my punishment daily by having to live and work around racist ass wipes. I am not sexist nor am I racist. I just one of a few white women that will speak up and tell it like it is. I am sick of white people who are a disgrace to MY race due to their bigotry and fight fire with fire. Til they are ready for some water? I am not giving it. OK?

Kali said:

So you do not think environment can hold someone down? Esp. if you have been put there by no choice of your own? It is hard to do well in school when you are starving and having to deal with people wishing to gangbang your ass or trying to get you to join gang.

You can have all the desire and motivation in the world but it is not gonna help if you are a a non-white person who is being judged and turned down due to skin color.

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I suspect affirmative action is causing backlashes. I am of the age that people who went to law school with me are now the managing partners at major league firms. Many of them were the victims of affirmative action and have no use for it

affirmative action if properly used was to give someone a break who would have achieved as much or more as those in favored positions but for the adversity they had

example, a coach choosing a kid ranked 15th in the state for a tennis scholarship over the #2 when the #15 practiced on his own at a public park and didn't have a private coach while the #2 kid had his own indoor court and a coach. The college coach could rationally argue that the 15th ranked kid had more talent and if he had all the advantages the other boy had, the 15th ranked kid might well be better


however, giving middle class black kids entry into harvard law with B averages and 90 percentile board scores over middle class white kids with A averages at 98 percentile board scores is a joke and that is what has happened with AA in most cases.

Blackdog said:

No, not at all.

You obviously know nothing about the Amish, I mean nothing.

They take care of their own. They are tight nit family's who work very hard for each other. They also know who the father is.

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I said some Amish and guess you are the one who knows nothing. Go out to Utah and it is a fact a lot of them are on welfare. Now they may know who their millions of childrens baby daddy are? But sometime it may be Creep Old Uncle Ted. :roll:

Kali said:

You can have all the desire and motivation in the world but it is not gonna help if you are a a non-white person who is being judged and turned down due to skin color.

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Give up on the "victimized" rant. Color is no reason to fail in this country.

If that were the case I would not have been able to retire at 45. Yes at 45.

No white man stopped me. Yet I have been the victim of racism.

Black men and women have no excuse, none. If they took all the energy the put into claiming the "white man is holding me down" into doing something for themselves, well who knows what we as a people could have accomplished.

Kali said:

I said some Amish and guess you are the one who knows nothing. Go out to Utah and it is a fact a lot of them are on welfare. Now they may know who their millions of childrens baby daddy are? But sometime it may be Creep Old Uncle Ted. :roll:

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Now you are just stereo typing. You are doing exactly the same thing that you claim white people are doing.

Hypocrite much? :doh

Kali said:

So you do not think environment can hold someone down? Esp. if you have been put there by no choice of your own? It is hard to do well in school when you are starving and having to deal with people wishing to gangbang your ass or trying to get you to join gang.

You can have all the desire and motivation in the world but it is not gonna help if you are a a non-white person who is being judged and turned down due to skin color.

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Who ever gets to choose their environment? And I'm sure you've seen the correlation with income and obesity; starving is not the problem they're facing.

Again, when you send in college applications, you don't include a picture. How would they know you're black unless you tell them?

I am just honest and keeping it real. Sad how a fair skinned white woman can know more about the struggle of your peoples than you!

Kali said:

I am just honest and keeping it real. Sad how a fair skinned white woman can know more about the struggle of your peoples than you!

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Keeping it real huh? Chris Rock said something about that...

"Keeping it real... real stupid." - Chris Rock

You don't know anything about my struggles or my people.

It is not helping blacks, or our cause. You can continue to support "niggaz" all you want. I will support the fine black people.

Kelzie said:

Who ever gets to choose their environment? And I'm sure you've seen the correlation with income and obesity; starving is not the problem they're facing.

Again, when you send in college applications, you don't include a picture. How would they know you're black unless you tell them?

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There is a well known harvard law professor who applied to two law schools-the two top rated schools

he put black on one and the other he left blank by accident. He got into the former and turned down by the latter--however, they later admitted him when they found out he was black. He stayed with Harvard though and didn't attend Yale

pretty damning -but for race he was not qualified

He's a big advocate of affirmative racism btw