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Should selling 'Gothic Kittens' be a crime?

Should piercing the ears of kittens and selling them as 'Gothic Kittens' be a crime?

  • Yes, it's animal cruelty and exploitive of innocent kittens

    Votes: 20 50.0%

  • It seems less cruel than docking tails and ears

    Votes: 5 12.5%

  • No, unless silliness is a crime

    Votes: 13 32.5%

  • Other, please explain

    Votes: 2 5.0%
  • Total voters
    40
Blackdog said:
"Affiliated" does not in any way mean active with an org. She has gone in after PETA MANY times. This is not an isolated incident.

Affiliated–adjective
being in close formal or informal association.

Active–adjective
1.engaged in action; characterized by energetic work, participation, etc

No, not even close.
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HUH? Whatever.

No matter the adjective, and that's your fight, not mine, you are using "active" in PETA as guilt by association. Dr. Merck was testifying in her capacity as a DVM and animal expert. She was not just some random person "active" in PETA the DA brought in.



Blackdog said:
Lot's of well respected people have an agenda, so what?



And so this makes it OK? :lol:
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You posted a blog entry by a group who has a problem with her, that has no proof of their accusation. I could find no reference other than that posting, that she "dumped" the puppy 250 miles away.



Blackdog said:
I agree her lawyers sucked.

As for being an expert, yes my father was a farmer in Penn no less. I know far more about animals than you think.



Her lawyers were court appointed and not to good. If she actually had money, I am certain plenty of experts would have come out of the woodwork.



I wonder after all this press why they would hang up or lie to an out of state caller. Hmmmm...
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All what press? I googled their name before you posted that link, but I could only come up with business information. In none of the articles I found on the subject of this woman even mentioned Critter Co. So what publicity could you possibly be speaking of?

They didn't hang up. I asked, she said no. She then said she would ask and put me on hold, then came back and said, "no, I'm sorry we don't."

Call them yourself.
 
Gina said:
HUH? Whatever.

No matter the adjective, and that's your fight, not mine, you are using "active" in PETA as guilt by association. Dr. Merck was testifying in her capacity as a DVM and animal expert. She was not just some random person "active" in PETA the DA brought in.

You posted a blog entry by a group who has a problem with her, that has no proof of their accusation. I could find no reference other than that posting, that she "dumped" the puppy 250 miles away.

All what press? I googled their name before you posted that link, but I could only come up with business information. In none of the articles I found on the subject of this woman even mentioned Critter Co. So what publicity could you possibly be speaking of?

They didn't hang up. I asked, she said no. She then said she would ask and put me on hold, then came back and said, "no, I'm sorry we don't."

Call them yourself.
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OK you are not even debating at this point. So far your argument hyperbole at best. Much like her silly comments about oh they can't jump properly which is garbage.

Have a good evening.
 
If you get an animal from some of the no-kill shelters? Those animals do indeed have rights and you must sign a contract about it too.
 
Kali said:
If you get an animal from some of the no-kill shelters? Those animals do indeed have rights and you must sign a contract about it too.
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Absolutely, you sign a contract. You have made a legal and binding agreement as to the treatment and care of that animal.

That has nothing to do with property rights or animal cruelty. As I said the only rights animals can have are the ones we the masters give them. Humans on the other hand have inalienable rights endowed by our creator, or so the Constitution says.
 
Blackdog said:
Humans on the other hand have inalienable rights endowed by our creator, or so the Constitution says.
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No...we've told ourselves we have these rights, and we told every other animal they don't.
 
repeter said:
No...we've told ourselves we have these rights, and we told every other animal they don't.
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Take it up with the founding fathers. :mrgreen:
 
Blackdog said:
Take it up with the founding fathers. :mrgreen:
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Yes, humans. And who wrote the Bible? A human. And who developed the idea of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? A human.

Do you see a trend here?
 
repeter said:
Yes, humans. And who wrote the Bible? A human. And who developed the idea of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? A human.

Do you see a trend here?
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Yes. We are the masters of this world.

That was easy, next! :2razz:

Ps I am a Christian, so I do not believe the Bible is some "just written by man" thing.
 
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Blackdog said:
Yes. We are the *self-ordained* masters of this world.

That was easy, next! :2razz:

Ps I am a Christian, so I do not believe the Bible is some "just written by man" thing.
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There you go, fixed it for you. And because we are the *self-ordained* masters of the world, we have decided that we can do whatever to the animals.

Now, imagine an alien civilization comes, conquers Earth, and they treat humans like dogs. Would you like them to be able to do all the crap we do to our pets? I wouldn't, and, going back to the Bible, "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
 
repeter said:
There you go, fixed it for you. And because we are the *self-ordained* masters of the world, we have decided that we can do whatever to the animals.
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This has nothing to do with my argument or the laws.

repeter said:
Now, imagine an alien civilization comes, conquers Earth, and they treat humans like dogs. Would you like them to be able to do all the crap we do to our pets? I wouldn't, and, going back to the Bible, "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
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Now we leap into the ridicules.

Fallacy argument buddy. Pony up with something real.

PS The Bible says do unto others as in humans. It also gives us dominion over ALL of the earth to do with as we see fit.

PLEASE don't try and preach my own Bible too me as we will go way off topic.
 
Blackdog said:
This has nothing to do with my argument or the laws.
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The point is that because we don't take this into account we have such horrible practices.

Blackdog said:
Now we leap into the ridicules.

Fallacy argument buddy. Pony up with something real.
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Nice try, but just answer the question.

Blackdog said:
PS The Bible says do unto others as in humans. It also gives us dominion over ALL of the earth to do with as we see fit.
PLEASE don't try and preach my own Bible too me as we will go way off topic.
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Honestly, it depends on interrpretations. And I think the Bible is an excellent source to cite in this argument. For example, if an animal attacks, you can defend yourself to the extent you need to. If an animal loves you, like a dog licking your hand, you should treat the dog well.

I don't know why people can't just follow that, it is so simple!

As for industrial practices, they seriously need reformation as well, as well as normal animal-cruelty laws.

And I do believe the basis of your argument is that because all these other poeple can treat animals cruelly, why can't you, right?
 
repeter said:
The point is that because we don't take this into account we have such horrible practices.
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Not really. I have already shown this. Do you want me to type it again?

repeter said:
Nice try, but just answer the question.
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What part of fallacy are you missing?

repeter said:
Honestly, it depends on interrpretations.
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Not really. Much of the Bible is pretty much set in stone like us being given dominion over the world.

repeter said:
And I think the Bible is an excellent source to cite in this argument. For example, if an animal attacks, you can defend yourself to the extent you need to.
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Read it again. The animal that injures a human is to be killed, period.

repeter said:
If an animal loves you, like a dog licking your hand, you should treat the dog well.
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It says that no place in the Bible at all.

repeter said:
I don't know why people can't just follow that, it is so simple!
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Because it is not that simple.

repeter said:
As for industrial practices, they seriously need reformation as well, as well as normal animal-cruelty laws.
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Then why are you disagreeing with me? Did you read my posts?

repeter said:
And I do believe the basis of your argument is that because all these other poeple can treat animals cruelly, why can't you, right?
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You really need to go back and read my posts before making such an asinine statement.
 
Blackdog said:
OK you are not even debating at this point. So far your argument hyperbole at best. Much like her silly comments about oh they can't jump properly which is garbage.

Have a good evening.
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You stopped debating several posts ago when you chose to attack Dr. Merck. She is a well respected veterinarian with a good reputation and you've offered nothing to counter her testimony by way of an expert opinion, though you've had ample opportunity to do so.

Goodnight.
 
Well, I'm glad to see this thread didn't segue off into Ridiculous Land, as I was afraid it might. :mrgreen:

Lawd have mercy...
 
Gina said:
You stopped debating several posts ago when you chose to attack Dr. Merck. She is a well respected veterinarian with a good reputation and you've offered nothing to counter her testimony by way of an expert opinion, though you've had ample opportunity to do so.

Goodnight.
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:2wave:

Goodnight!
 
Blackdog said:
I highly doubt a 14 gage half moon ring is going to affect the cats ability to jump.
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A cat's sense of balance is incredibly fine tuned. Years ago, we had a cat that not only couldn't walk, but couldn't even stand up, when there was a hand towel draped across his back. He'd freeze, then collapse on his side.

It was a simple accident that led to this discovery - one day a towel fell from the stove towel-bar thingie onto his back as he brushed by it, and he just fell over and laid there on the kitchen floor until my mother discovered him some time later. She thought he was having some sort of seizure, but as soon as the towel was off his back, he acted perfectly fine. Mom tested it again, just to be sure this was what was going on and that he wasn't having an embolism - towel on back, collapse; towel removed, kitteh fine and dandy.

So, yeah. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that a piercing would cause a cat's balance to go completely wonky.

Have you ever even had a cat? Given your glaring lack of knowledge about feline behavior, I'd have to guess no.
 
Glinda said:
A cat's sense of balance is incredibly fine tuned. Years ago, we had a cat that not only couldn't walk, but couldn't even stand up, when there was a hand towel draped across his back. He'd freeze, then collapse on his side.
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The cat had serious issues.

Glinda said:
It was a simple accident that led to this discovery - one day a towel fell from the stove towel-bar thingie onto his back as he brushed by it, and he just fell over and laid there on the kitchen floor until my mother discovered him some time later. She thought he was having some sort of seizure, but as soon as the towel was off his back, he acted perfectly fine. Mom tested it again, just to be sure this was what was going on and that he wasn't having an embolism - towel on back, collapse; towel removed, kitteh fine and dandy.

So, yeah. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that a piercing would cause a cat's balance to go completely wonky.

Have you ever even had a cat? Given your glaring lack of knowledge about feline behavior, I'd have to guess no.
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Yes a few, and none of them would fall over because a towel fell on them. In fact when we were younger we would put capes on them made out of (you guessed it) towels and they walked just fine. Now it will cause them to inverse the back, but that is the extent of it. The cat could balance and jump around just fine.

Anyone remember "Action Cats" fake commercial on Saturday Night Live? They had cats dressed up in complete weapons harnesses made of plastic that included guns and missile launchers on the back and body of the cats. They walked just fine.

YouTube - SNL skit ACTION CATS!! big cat with the big guns!!

Wow look at the cats walking with no problem. :roll:

Either your story is not true, or that was a lame cat, as in issues.

Which is it?
 
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Blackdog said:
Take it up with the founding fathers. :mrgreen:
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Who are probably either living it up in another world or rolling in their graves about now:2razz:
 
Blackdog said:
Either the law has to apply or it does not. The animal does not have any rights. The community would be infringing on the right of this woman by trying to force her to change the piercings. It is her property and not the community's. Unless she is infringing on someone else's rights (and she is not) it is no one else's business.

No one is telling dog breeders where to snip? Why does she need to be told? No one is telling the fir farms how to treat the animals they have, why does she have to submit?
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I believe in communal governance. If a community wishes to establish certain ethical standards as it pertains to the treatment of animals (animal cruelty laws), then I believe they are well within their rights. I wouldn't have sent this woman to prison, but I would support removing or replacing the earrings, as they are needlessly cruel.

To me, it would be no different than a community bylaw which forbade public intoxication or displaying crude messages on one's lawn.
 
1984 said:
I believe in communal governance. If a community wishes to establish certain ethical standards as it pertains to the treatment of animals (animal cruelty laws), then I believe they are well within their rights. I wouldn't have sent this woman to prison, but I would support removing or replacing the earrings, as they are needlessly cruel.

To me, it would be no different than a community bylaw which forbade public intoxication or displaying crude messages on one's lawn.
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Actually I can agree with that. I did not think about the level of the law. I just assumed state or federal.

I still think it was not abuse, and house arrest was over the top.
 
Blackdog said:
Actually I can agree with that. I did not think about the level of the law. I just assumed state or federal.

I still think it was not abuse, and house arrest was over the top.
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What's the difference? They're all just levels of communities.
 
Kelzie said:
What's the difference? They're all just levels of communities.
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On a Federal and state level ALL laws need to be enforced equally under the law. Without this, our system fails.

Locally or lets say a village, does not have too as long as it does not trump or disregard state or Federal law. Reason being if you don't like the law, you can move to someplace you like better. You should not be run out of your state ot country by it though. Part of the reason I moved form Illinois to Florida.

If a farm or dog breeder can crop tails etc. Why can't this woman? You don't need a license and their is no over site as far as I know. On a federal or state level this means certain people are above the law. This is not acceptable.

In fact it stinks to high heaven just like "hate" laws. It creates a privileged class in what is supposed to be a representative republic.
 
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Blackdog said:
Actually I can agree with that. I did not think about the level of the law. I just assumed state or federal.

I still think it was not abuse, and house arrest was over the top.
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There are theories that during the dark ages that the lack of cats, as a result of being killed by Church superstitions, was the cause of the bubonic plaque in Europe.

The reason: Cats kill rats.
 
Blackdog said:
On a Federal and state level ALL laws need to be enforced equally under the law. Without this, our system fails.

Locally or lets say a village, does not have too as long as it does not trump or disregard state or Federal law.

If a farm or dog breeder can crop tails etc. Why can't this woman? You don't need a license and their is no over site as far as I know. On a federal or state level this means certain people are above the law. This is not acceptable.

In fact it stinks to high heaven just like "hate" laws. It creates a privileged class in what is supposed to be a representative republic.
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You can't test on humans. A drug company that has jumped through the proper loop holes can. That's on the federal level.

You can't torture an animal. A drug company that has jumped through the proper loop holes can (in a manner of speaking). That's on the federal level.
 
Kelzie said:
What's the difference? They're all just levels of communities.
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There is quite the large difference between a community bylaw and a Federal mandate. If you don't like the community bylaw, you can just move to another community; if you don't like a Federal mandate, well, you have to leave the United States. Quite the difference...
 
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