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Should selling 'Gothic Kittens' be a crime?

Should piercing the ears of kittens and selling them as 'Gothic Kittens' be a crime?

  • Yes, it's animal cruelty and exploitive of innocent kittens

    Votes: 20 50.0%

  • It seems less cruel than docking tails and ears

    Votes: 5 12.5%

  • No, unless silliness is a crime

    Votes: 13 32.5%

  • Other, please explain

    Votes: 2 5.0%
  • Total voters
    40
jallman said:
Absolutely should be illegal. Anyone who has had a cat knows exactly what that cat is gonna do when it sees those earrings dangling in front of its face constantly. The actual piercing may not have been cruel, but when the cat unintentionally rips the things out thinking they were a toy...that's where the cruelty comes in.
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Lol if a cat is retarded enough to rip something out of its ear maybe it needs to be put down. Now if you put them in and the cat instantly, and constantly starts clawing, ripping at them to get them out obviously then need to be removed. If it was acclimated to it from an early age then maybe you should be worried they might accidentally get caught on something. If it was an inside cat then there would be almost no problem. I think this case right here is unacceptable simply because the size and weight of the earings. Little tiny loops would look tits. But if this cat were to shake its head try it looks like it might put out one of it's own eyes.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Lol if a cat is retarded enough to rip something out of its ear maybe it needs to be put down.
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It's not about the cat being retarded. It's about the cat being a cat and jumping at this unnatural object dangling in front of its face. Cats, by their nature, are drawn to movement. If you think millions of years of evolution manifesting itself as an instinct is retarded, then take that up with Darwin, not the cat.
 
jallman said:
It's not about the cat being retarded. It's about the cat being a cat and jumping at this unnatural object dangling in front of its face. Cats, by their nature, are drawn to movement. If you think millions of years of evolution manifesting itself as an instinct is retarded, then take that up with Darwin, not the cat.
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If something hurts its not going to keep doing it for fun. The only way a cat would rip something out of its ear is by it snagging onto something while it is using lots of momentum or if it freaked out and ripped it out on purpose. No cat is gonna go, "DUR DUR DUR" * tug... "ouch"... *pull.. "ouch".. *Bite a little bit... "ouch that hurt alot"... *BITE IT OFF

You dangle your fingers like a challanger and a cat usually won't swipe you with enough force to dammage you. (Unless it hates you) They are pretty smart. So you stick something to its ear and it isn't going to rip it out just for fun. Why the hell am I even debating this?
 
dirtpoorchris said:
If something hurts its not going to keep doing it for fun. The only way a cat would rip something out of its ear is by it snagging onto something while it is using lots of momentum or if it freaked out and ripped it out on purpose. No cat is gonna go, "DUR DUR DUR" * tug... "ouch"... *pull.. "ouch".. *Bite a little bit... "ouch that hurt alot"... *BITE IT OFF

You dangle your fingers like a challanger and a cat usually won't swipe you with enough force to dammage you. (Unless it hates you) They are pretty smart. So you stick something to its ear and it isn't going to rip it out just for fun. Why the hell am I even debating this?
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That's a fine theory if you occlude the opportunity for accidents and mistakes on the cat's part.

Either way, this minutia doesn't really matter. I just think that it is a horrible and vain thing to do...this piercing a cat's ears just to make it more cute or whatever to you. If the cat doesn't fit your style, don't have a ****ing cat. Or, even better, get to know your animal's distinct personality and use that to decide if the cat is right for you before you go mutilating it in ways that, while fine for humans, are not at all acceptable to do to an animal for pure ornamentation.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Being a cat owner I wondered when I saw the "earrings" picture how that would affect the cat when jumping or fighting.

I'm not a fan of tail docking and other aesthetic "treatments" but I do wonder when the treatment impairs or affects an animals ability to defend itself or carry out normal activities. The piercings on the back of the neck or scruff of the kitten certainly would affect it as others have mentioned.
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Indeed, according to the investigator:

Melinda Merck, an animal cruelty investigator and veterinarian, said the ear piercings altered the cats’ hearing.

The piercings at the back of their necks and base of tails hampered balance and jumping, local media quoted her as saying.

'They were maimed and disfigured,' she said, adding that if infections had become severe, the three-month-old kittens could have died.
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Blackdog said:
This is stupid. This is not abuse of an animal. We do much worse in the name of fashion, science and food etc.

The animal is her property, she is not putting the animal in any danger or abusing it. The rings do not affect the cat one way or the other.

The people crying about it being abuse in my opinion need to get a grip.
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Unbelievable. You couldn't have read the various cut and pasted articles. Clearly she abused these animals:

Melinda Merck, an animal cruelty investigator and veterinarian, said the ear piercings altered the cats’ hearing.

The piercings at the back of their necks and base of tails hampered balance and jumping, local media quoted her as saying.

'They were maimed and disfigured,' she said, adding that if infections had become severe, the three-month-old kittens could have died.

Dr Merck said piercing the kittens' necks produced a feeling of submission that would linger with the silver metal jewellery.

Mother cats pick up their young from the scruff of the neck, she said, because pressure on the sensitive nerves there leads to submissive action.

'No matter what they tried, they could not escape from this,' she said. 'It would make them feel as if they were constantly being bitten.'
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dirtpoorchris said:
Lol if a cat is retarded enough to rip something out of its ear maybe it needs to be put down. Now if you put them in and the cat instantly, and constantly starts clawing, ripping at them to get them out obviously then need to be removed. If it was acclimated to it from an early age then maybe you should be worried they might accidentally get caught on something. If it was an inside cat then there would be almost no problem. I think this case right here is unacceptable simply because the size and weight of the earings. Little tiny loops would look tits. But if this cat were to shake its head try it looks like it might put out one of it's own eyes.
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Haven't you ever noticed animals, if allowed to, will lick and bite stitches and tear bandages from injuries? It is in their nature to remove foreign bodies and objects from themselves. There is nothing retarded about the cats' behavior, only that of this stupid woman.

One of the cats had torn out one of piercings.

Ms Kyle said Crawford told her one of the kittens had ripped out a piercing and Crawford was waiting for it to heal before she pierced it again.
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Gina said:
Haven't you ever noticed animals, if allowed to, will lick and bite stitches and tear bandages from injuries? It is in their nature to remove foreign bodies and objects from themselves. There is nothing retarded about the cats' behavior, only that of this stupid woman.

One of the cats had torn out one of piercings.
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Many people who have never spent time around animals or who have a common attitude that an animal is just an accessory don't realize or appreciate the way an animal thinks.
 
jallman said:
That's a fine theory if you occlude the opportunity for accidents and mistakes on the cat's part.

Either way, this minutia doesn't really matter. I just think that it is a horrible and vain thing to do...this piercing a cat's ears just to make it more cute or whatever to you. If the cat doesn't fit your style, don't have a ****ing cat. Or, even better, get to know your animal's distinct personality and use that to decide if the cat is right for you before you go mutilating it in ways that, while fine for humans, are not at all acceptable to do to an animal for pure ornamentation.
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Haven't you read anything I've typed?
 
jallman said:
Many people who have never spent time around animals or who have a common attitude that an animal is just an accessory don't realize or appreciate the way an animal thinks.
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It is a common attitude, and one that I find so very offensive.
These people will never realize the joy that a loving pet can bring to their lives.
 
Gina said:
Haven't you ever noticed animals, if allowed to, will lick and bite stitches and tear bandages from injuries? It is in their nature to remove foreign bodies and objects from themselves. There is nothing retarded about the cats' behavior, only that of this stupid woman.

One of the cats had torn out one of piercings.
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Yep. I've also noticed dogs with necklaces. Shoes, shirts, diapers, clip on earings, costumes. All kinds of crap. The arguement that it will hurt itself by playing with the addition to it isn't a very good one. It isn't going to purposely cause itself pain. If it hated it maybe it would get pissed and purposely try to remove it. How is anything I said wrong and not just a furtherance upon what ya'll been saying?

I got a lil mini datsi and Id never do anything like this do her. The worst accessory she gets is a lil rain coat cuz I live in Washington. But she learned to love it first walk out in the rain.
 
1069 said:
It is a common attitude, and one that I find so very offensive.
These people will never realize the joy that a loving pet can bring to their lives.
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I don't find it so offensive because many people just never know better but I do find it kinda sad for both the animal and them. I just think that when you look at the decision to own a pet, you need to be mindful that this isn't a stuffed wooby for you to cuddle when it's convenient for you. It's a real life and a distinct personality with desires and emotions but, more importantly, instincts that you need to understand before you make a commitment that you might not be able to keep.

One of the things that does offend me is when people train the personality and instinct out of an animal, particularly dogs. Part of the joy of having a dog is the way a dog behaves and when you crush that behavior, you might as well just have a stuffed animal that you feed. My dogs are socialized and they have boundaries in place for their protection and the protection of my belongings, but they still act like dogs and it's fun...in our house, there's pack heirarchy because we live with the dogs and they live with us. And if you treat them that way, the usually are very well behaved anyway.
 
jallman said:
I don't find it so offensive because many people just never know better but I do find it kinda sad for both the animal and them. I just think that when you look at the decision to own a pet, you need to be mindful that this isn't a stuffed wooby for you to cuddle when it's convenient for you. It's a real life and a distinct personality with desires and emotions but, more importantly, instincts that you need to understand before you make a commitment that you might not be able to keep.

One of the things that does offend me is when people train the personality and instinct out of an animal, particularly dogs. Part of the joy of having a dog is the way a dog behaves and when you crush that behavior, you might as well just have a stuffed animal that you feed. My dogs are socialized and they have boundaries in place for their protection and the protection of my belongings, but they still act like dogs and it's fun...in our house, there's pack heirarchy because we live with the dogs and they live with us. And if you treat them that way, the usually are very well behaved anyway.
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It makes me mad when I see homeless street people standing on the corner begging with a dog. They all seem to have dogs, and I just know the dogs aren't fed or cared for properly.
 
1069 said:
It makes me mad when I see homeless street people standing on the corner begging with a dog. They all seem to have dogs, and I just know the dogs aren't fed or cared for properly.
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I have mixed feelings about that though. I have to wonder in those situations if the homeless and the dog don't get on better than most masters and dogs because of how they are forced to live. I am sure when you are so outside the boundaries of society, it's easy to attach yourself to an animal that isn't going to judge you because you are stinky and crapping in your shoe for lack of anywhere else to go. And as many stray dogs as there are, at least when this relationship forms, the dog is better off than finding its way to a pound where it's gonna be put down for just being an inconvenience.
 
jallman said:
Many people who have never spent time around animals or who have a common attitude that an animal is just an accessory don't realize or appreciate the way an animal thinks.
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Exactly, I think to some people they are just moving objects and they don't consider there are reasons for their behavior. Others are just ignorant.

jallman said:
If the cat doesn't fit your style, don't have a ****ing cat. Or, even better, get to know your animal's distinct personality and use that to decide if the cat is right for you before you go mutilating it in ways that, while fine for humans, are not at all acceptable to do to an animal for pure ornamentation.
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Bravo! Pets come as they are. Accept it or don't get one.

You are also right people acquire pets thinking it will just meld into their lifestyle without considering they have personalities and quirks like any living creature. One breed doesn't fit all.

dirtpoorchris said:
Yep. I've also noticed dogs with necklaces. Shoes, shirts, diapers, clip on earings, costumes. All kinds of crap. The arguement that it will hurt itself by playing with the addition to it isn't a very good one. It isn't going to purposely cause itself pain. If it hated it maybe it would get pissed and purposely try to remove it. How is anything I said wrong and not just a furtherance upon what ya'll been saying?

I got a lil mini datsi and Id never do anything like this do her. The worst accessory she gets is a lil rain coat cuz I live in Washington. But she learned to love it first walk out in the rain.
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And I would say whoever did all that crap to their dogs is an idiot, but none of that rises to the level of abuse that this woman perpetrated on the kitties. She put something on them they cannot just paw off.

YES, an animal will cause itself pain to rid itself of something unnaturally attached to their body. For Pete's sake, haven't you heard of an animal with a trapped appendage chewing it off so they can get away?

This woman pierced their necks. As the vet explained, the kitty would continuously feel like it was being bitten in the neck. That particular sensation is provided by nature so that a mother cat can move her babies without them putting up a fight. With no relief from that sensation, the animal would feel tortured.

What you have said is the animal is retarded for acting like an animal and within the norms of their behavioral standards.

A raincoat, while a bit silly, is practical and can hardly be compared to 14 gauge metal piercing in the delicate ears of a kitty.
 
Gina said:
Exactly, I think to some people they are just moving objects and they don't consider there are reasons for their behavior. Others are just ignorant.



Bravo! Pets come as they are. Accept it or don't get one.

You are also right people acquire pets thinking it will just meld into their lifestyle without considering they have personalities and quirks like any living creature. One breed doesn't fit all.



And I would say whoever did all that crap to their dogs is an idiot, but none of that rises to the level of abuse that this woman perpetrated on the kitties. She put something on them they cannot just paw off.

YES, an animal will cause itself pain to rid itself of something unnaturally attached to their body. For Pete's sake, haven't you heard of an animal with a trapped appendage chewing it off so they can get away?

This woman pierced their necks. As the vet explained, the kitty would continuously feel like it was being bitten in the neck. That particular sensation is provided by nature so that a mother cat can move her babies without them putting up a fight. With no relief from that sensation, the animal would feel tortured.

What you have said is the animal is retarded for acting like an animal and within the norms of their behavioral standards.

A raincoat, while a bit silly, is practical and can hardly be compared to 14 gauge metal piercing in the delicate ears of a kitty.
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Where did I say that it wouldnt? Are you reading what I am typing? I said that it would cause itself harm in a situation of stress. Are you reading anything that I am typing at all other then what you want to see?

Debating is annoying when you have to keep leading a horse to water. Now I know how annoying it must be when there is one or two crucial foundations I am missing and it must be pointed out.
 
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Gina said:
This woman pierced their necks. As the vet explained, the kitty would continuously feel like it was being bitten in the neck. That particular sensation is provided by nature so that a mother cat can move her babies without them putting up a fight. With no relief from that sensation, the animal would feel tortured.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I'm talking about: ignorance of the instinctual nature of the animal. If you are a pet owner, you need to know and be familiar with the behavior and socialization of that animal from cradle to grave in order to understand how to even train it. Otherwise, you can mess that animal up and cause some serious social issues that will ruin that animal's chances of ever having a home with another human if something happens to you. I'm certainly not the dog whisperer, but I make a point of "listening" to my dogs and training them with their instincts rather than against them.

For instance, Bishop had an issue nipping at me when he was about 4 months old. Fine when he's playing with Vesta, the other dog, but not ok when he's playing with other people. I would pinch the scruff of his neck hard and put pressure on him to lay down until he rolled over on his back and presented his belly. That may seem cruel, but it's how his mother would have done it to curb bad behavior. In the end, it only took a couple times and now I don't have to worry about him playing too rough around anyone, including other dogs and even babies despite him being close to a hundred pounds now.

People just need to understand their pets and live with them if they are going to have them.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
If something hurts its not going to keep doing it for fun. The only way a cat would rip something out of its ear is by it snagging onto something while it is using lots of momentum or if it freaked out and ripped it out on purpose. No cat is gonna go, "DUR DUR DUR" * tug... "ouch"... *pull.. "ouch".. *Bite a little bit... "ouch that hurt alot"... *BITE IT OFF

You dangle your fingers like a challanger and a cat usually won't swipe you with enough force to dammage you. (Unless it hates you) They are pretty smart. So you stick something to its ear and it isn't going to rip it out just for fun. Why the hell am I even debating this?
Click to expand...

Humans don't rip their earrings out of their ears just for fun either, but it happens all. the. time. The chances of a cat tearing out an earring are far greater.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Where did I say that it wouldnt? Are you reading what I am typing? I said that it would cause itself harm in a situation of stress. Are you reading anything that I am typing at all other then what you want to see?

Debating is annoying when you have to keep leading a horse to water. Now I know how annoying it must be when there is one or two crucial foundations I am missing and it must be pointed out.
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This is what you said:

dirtpoorchris said:
Lol if a cat is retarded enough to rip something out of its ear maybe it needs to be put down. Now if you put them in and the cat instantly, and constantly starts clawing, ripping at them to get them out obviously then need to be removed. If it was acclimated to it from an early age then maybe you should be worried they might accidentally get caught on something. If it was an inside cat then there would be almost no problem. I think this case right here is unacceptable simply because the size and weight of the earings. Little tiny loops would look tits. But if this cat were to shake its head try it looks like it might put out one of it's own eyes.
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dirtpoorchris;1058694725[B said:
]If something hurts its not going to keep doing it for fun. [/B]The only way a cat would rip something out of its ear is by it snagging onto something while it is using lots of momentum or if it freaked out and ripped it out on purpose. No cat is gonna go, "DUR DUR DUR" * tug... "ouch"... *pull.. "ouch".. *Bite a little bit... "ouch that hurt alot"... *BITE IT OFF

You dangle your fingers like a challanger and a cat usually won't swipe you with enough force to dammage you. (Unless it hates you) They are pretty smart. So you stick something to its ear and it isn't going to rip it out just for fun. Why the hell am I even debating this?
Click to expand...

dirtpoorchris said:
Yep. I've also noticed dogs with necklaces. Shoes, shirts, diapers, clip on earings, costumes. All kinds of crap. The arguement that it will hurt itself by playing with the addition to it isn't a very good one. It isn't going to purposely cause itself pain. If it hated it maybe it would get pissed and purposely try to remove it. How is anything I said wrong and not just a furtherance upon what ya'll been saying?

I got a lil mini datsi and Id never do anything like this do her. The worst accessory she gets is a lil rain coat cuz I live in Washington. But she learned to love it first walk out in the rain.
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You're going around and around saying the animal won't hurt itself and if it does it's retarded and needs to be put down.

That is just not true.

Bringing in dog clothes and the other nonsense, only muddied your point.

If you agree, the earrings can cause the animal to harm itself and that is a natural behavior, then there is nothing to debate.


jallman said:
That's exactly what I'm talking about: ignorance of the instinctual nature of the animal. If you are a pet owner, you need to know and be familiar with the behavior and socialization of that animal from cradle to grave in order to understand how to even train it. Otherwise, you can mess that animal up and cause some serious social issues that will ruin that animal's chances of ever having a home with another human if something happens to you. I'm certainly not the dog whisperer, but I make a point of "listening" to my dogs and training them with their instincts rather than against them.

For instance, Bishop had an issue nipping at me when he was about 4 months old. Fine when he's playing with Vesta, the other dog, but not ok when he's playing with other people. I would pinch the scruff of his neck hard and put pressure on him to lay down until he rolled over on his back and presented his belly. That may seem cruel, but it's how his mother would have done it to curb bad behavior. In the end, it only took a couple times and now I don't have to worry about him playing too rough around anyone, including other dogs and even babies despite him being close to a hundred pounds now.

People just need to understand their pets and live with them if they are going to have them.
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No, none of that is cruel and I was instructed to make a similar move when one of my dogs, long since passed, would snap at me as I tried to clean up the trash she dumped on the floor. It worked.

Safety for the pet and the family is of prime concern and it's the ignorant pet owner who usually has a tragedy on their hands or abuses a pet because they don't understand animal behavior.

We are in complete agreement.
 
Gina said:
Unbelievable. You couldn't have read the various cut and pasted articles. Clearly she abused these animals:
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Did you bother to read what I said and understand it in context. Let me answer that for you....

NO

We do much worse to many more animals in the name of fashion, science etc. And that is not abuse. Why would this be????

I don't see any of the fashion company's who test on animals going to jail? Oh I guess lip gloss is a valuable service to humanity?

Get a grip. They are animals, and that is that. They are not human and have not rights.

Gina said:
Haven't you ever noticed animals, if allowed to, will lick and bite stitches and tear bandages from injuries? It is in their nature to remove foreign bodies and objects from themselves. There is nothing retarded about the cats' behavior, only that of this stupid woman.
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And dogs eat cat ****, and my Parrot craps on anything and everything, they are animals. No matter how much we love and care for them they are NOT humans and are not afforded any rights.

What happens when a dog bites someone? No trial, no excuse, they are put down, period. When a racing dog can't be adopted, they are put down. If an animal is at most shelters to long, they are put down.

No judge, jury or trial. They have no natural rights other than the ones we as the masters give them.

They were her property and being charged with animal cruelty for piercing considering the rest that goes on, is just stupid.

Gina said:
One of the cats had torn out one of piercings.
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Take it to a vet.

Wow that was hard. :roll:

PS If my parrot (whom I love dearly) messed up and I decided I did not want it any more, I could just kill it, period. No cruelty charges, no police. Just a dead animal to bury. It is an animal.
 
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Blackdog said:
PS If my parrot (whom I love dearly) messed up and I decided I did not want it any more, I could just kill it, period. No cruelty charges, no police. Just a dead animal to bury. It is an animal.
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Out of your entire post, this part really ticked me off. We are all animals. Just because a dog, or a cat cannot speak english, and tell us it doesn't like ear piercings, or getting its tail cut or whatever doesn't mean it wants that done to it. Animals feel pain, and they can perceive quite a lot.
 
repeter said:
Out of your entire post, this part really ticked me off. We are all animals. Just because a dog, or a cat cannot speak english, and tell us it doesn't like ear piercings, or getting its tail cut or whatever doesn't mean it wants that done to it. Animals feel pain, and they can perceive quite a lot.
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Does not make them human.

And I don't care if it ticked you off. Get a grip and recognize they are NOT human. They are property.
 
Blackdog said:
Does not make them human.

And I don't care if it ticked you off. Get a grip and recognize they are NOT human. They are property.
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Because it isn't human? That is the saddest excuse for an argument I have ever heard :roll:

"its not human" isn't a far cry from "its not German" or "its not white."
 
repeter said:
Because it isn't human? That is the saddest excuse for an argument I have ever heard :roll:

"its not human" isn't a far cry from "its not German" or "its not white."
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So now you are trying to say an animal is human?

All humans are animals, all animals are NOT humans.

They are property and thus have no rights.

As soon as the pharmaceutical and fashion or fir industry's are arrested for animal cruelty, you mite have an argument.

Nice fallacy adding the German or white racism into to it. Godwin ftw! :mrgreen:
 
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Blackdog said:
So now you are trying to say an animal is human?

All humans are animals, all animals are NOT humans.

They are property and thus have no rights.

As soon as the pharmaceutical and fashion or fir industry's are arrested for animal cruelty, you mite have an argument.
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I'm not saying they are humans, but I am saying that compassion is a human attribute. The moment start justifying all the crap we do to animals because, "they aren't human," thats when humans are no longer people, IMO.

And yes, I know we already have people saying that, and doing things I'm not going to mention on this thread, and as far as I'm concerned, those people are the animals.
 
repeter said:
I'm not saying they are humans, but I am saying that compassion is a human attribute. The moment start justifying all the crap we do to animals because, "they aren't human," thats when humans are no longer people, IMO.
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I have no problem with compassion and I love animals.

I don't see this as being about animal cruelty, it is about our slowly eroding right to property.

Now people are trying to say piercing or cropping etc an animal is cruelty? It's my freaking animal. If I want to put it down, I will. If I want it cropped or pierced a certain way that is my business, not the government. It is my property. Until the fir industry or beef industry etc is brought up on charges, this is unadulterated bull****, period. It is a double standard brought on by "feel good" law making, nothing more.

repeter said:
And yes, I know we already have people saying that, and doing things I'm not going to mention on this thread, and as far as I'm concerned, those people are the animals.
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Irrelevant.
 
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