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Can the Libertarian party or policies ever work?

Should/Can libertarianism work?

  • Yes of course but first we need to become more known.

    Votes: 18 31.6%

  • Yes but we will never get elected.

    Votes: 5 8.8%

  • No and I'm damn glad of it.

    Votes: 27 47.4%

  • No because we will never get well known/enough votes.

    Votes: 7 12.3%
  • Total voters
    57
No, it will never. Both parties are interventionist war-mongers, and that has been the case since the Spanish-American War.
 
phattonez said:
They were equal access, just separate (in theory). Look at Brown v. Board of Education. They didn't strike it down because it was unconstitutional, they struck it down because the equal part never came to fruition. The argument in favor was that "separate educational facilities are inherently unequal." If you could pull off separate but equal then you have no problem according to the constitution, but it was never done.
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And this was done, because "Separate but equal" was impossible. The government was placing people in inherently unequal conditions solely due to their race.
 
DrunkenAsparagus said:
And this was done, because "Separate but equal" was impossible. The government was placing people in inherently unequal conditions solely due to their race.
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Yes, but if it was possible, then it wouldn't be unconstitutional. Equal is impossible because you're making it separate for a reason. It was struck down not because the law said so, but just because human action made it impossible.
 
phattonez said:
Yes, but if it was possible, then it wouldn't be unconstitutional. Equal is impossible because you're making it separate for a reason. It was struck down not because the law said so, but just because human action made it impossible.
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If the law makes discrimination inevitable, how is that not discriminatory?
 
DrunkenAsparagus said:
If the law makes discrimination inevitable, how is that not discriminatory?
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Because if it was possible then it would have been fine. However, they discovered that it was impossible, and that's why it was eventually overturned.
 
phattonez said:
Because if it was possible then it would have been fine. However, they discovered that it was impossible, and that's why it was eventually overturned.
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African Americans were already relegated to poorer conditions with public services. They had been for decades since the passage of the 14th Amendment.
 
DrunkenAsparagus said:
African Americans were already relegated to poorer conditions with public services. They had been for decades since the passage of the 14th Amendment.
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They were slaves, they weren't citizens. The Constitution doesn't apply to non-citizens, so it's not the same situation.
 
phattonez said:
They were slaves, they weren't citizens. The Constitution doesn't apply to non-citizens, so it's not the same situation.
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I said after the passage of the 14th Amendment and before Fergussen, between 1865 and 1896.
 
I can't believe the high percentage of stupid people who said, "no."

OF COURSE THEY CAN!

You have studied at least a little American history, haven't you?

Not only can libertarian principles work, BUT THEY ALREADY HAVE.

WHEN? America's founding fathers did it. America was founded upon INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY -- LIBERTARIAN PRINCIPLES -- and as a result, became THE GREATEST NATION IN THE WORLD.

And furthermore, we must NOT abandon them, lest we collapse like the Soviet Union.
 
ronpaulvoter said:
I can't believe the high percentage of stupid people who said, "no."

OF COURSE THEY CAN!

You have studied at least a little American history, haven't you?

Not only can libertarian principles work, BUT THEY ALREADY HAVE.

WHEN? America's founding fathers did it. America was founded upon INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY -- LIBERTARIAN PRINCIPLES -- and as a result, became THE GREATEST NATION IN THE WORLD.
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The greatest nation in the world -- with slavery, child labor, no regulation of unsafe foods, no public schools, no health care for the poor, and no rights for women.

Mind you, the competition back then wasn't much better. It's a lot easier to be the Greatest Nation in the World when everyone else is bad, too. :mrgreen:
 
Groucho said:
The greatest nation in the world -- with slavery, child labor, no regulation of unsafe foods, no public schools, no health care for the poor, and no rights for women.

Mind you, the competition back then wasn't much better. It's a lot easier to be the Greatest Nation in the World when everyone else is bad, too. :mrgreen:
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Libertarian principles do NOT endorse slavery or child labor, and they do NOT deny rights for women. The other items in the list are better provided by a free market in the private sector.

Read the Libertarian Party platform before you make accusations like these.
 
ronpaulvoter said:
I can't believe the high percentage of stupid people who said, "no."

OF COURSE THEY CAN!

You have studied at least a little American history, haven't you?

Not only can libertarian principles work, BUT THEY ALREADY HAVE.

WHEN? America's founding fathers did it. America was founded upon INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY -- LIBERTARIAN PRINCIPLES -- and as a result, became THE GREATEST NATION IN THE WORLD.

And furthermore, we must NOT abandon them, lest we collapse like the Soviet Union.
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Which founding fathers are you thinking of because the ones that I remember codified slavery into their social contract and set up a statist system in which only white male property owners could vote in. The social contract itself is antithetical to individual liberty as it invokes in the state a monopoly on the right to violate the non-aggression principle by forcing anyone who doesn't accept the social contract voluntarily, to abide by it through the use of force, which is both a violation of the right of self ownership and individual sovereignty.

That being said yes Libertarian policies can work, actual Libertarian policies but not some yesteryear idealized version of a historical United State's that never existed. If you want a reactionary party vote for Pat Buchanan or another paleocon, if you want a radical party vote Libertarian.
 
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ronpaulvoter said:
Libertarian principles do NOT endorse slavery or child labor, and they do NOT deny rights for women. The other items in the list are better provided by a free market in the private sector.

Read the Libertarian Party platform before you make accusations like these.
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Oh of course they don't approve these things.

They instead have some belief that in a perfect world these things can all be resolved with peace, love and understanding.

In many ways, libertarians are just like communists. They are at the exact opposite ends of the "government involvement" spectrum, but both have an idealized notion of how the world works which in no way is supported by reality. One things that all of our problems can be solved if the government gets out of our lives, and one thinks that all of our problems can be solved if the government controls all our lives. Both are wrong.
 
Groucho said:
The greatest nation in the world -- with slavery,
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Wow, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Slavery is a violation of the right of individual sovereignty,

child labor,
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Not allowing a child the right to work is a violation of that child's right to individual sovereignty, however, forcing that child to work is likewise a violation of that child's individual sovereignty. Why is it o.k. for a child to become a movie star or a paper boy but not o.k. for a child to learn a trade?

no regulation of unsafe foods,
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There would be no need to regulate against unsafe foods, because a) poisoning ones consumers is obviously not good for business and any company who did so would quickly go out of business, and b) tort law could easily be used to put such companies out of business as well.

no public schools,
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Private schools are superior in every way to public schools and poor children today end up in the worst schools; whereas, the children of wealthy parents already go to private schools. What we are left with is a system in which billions of dollars are being spent and nobody is getting educated.


no health care for the poor,
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The poor can't afford health care because of statist policies which drive up the cost of health care and health insurance.

and no rights for women.
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Um no they would have the right of individual sovereignty just like everyone else.
 
Right, right, because we have seen how this works lately:

There have been no e coli outbreaks since the lessening of regulations on the meat industry;

The economy has been doing great since so many regulations were removed from Wall Street;

There have been no oil spills since the oil companies have been allowed to drill without oversight;

There have been no mine disasters since regulations have been lessened...

Why, the free market solves everything!
 
Groucho said:
There have been no e coli outbreaks since the lessening of regulations on the meat industry;
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There have been no e. coli outbreaks with the FDA in charge.

The economy has been doing great since so many regulations were removed from Wall Street;
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We never had been crises with regulations.

There have been no oil spills since the oil companies have been allowed to drill without oversight;
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There have been no oil spills since we required licenses for drilling.

There have been no mine disasters since regulations have been lessened...
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There have been no mine disasters since the EPA and regulations were introduced.

Why, the free market solves everything!
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Why, government regulation solves everything!
 
To paraphrase a quote:

Anarchy by any other name, still stinks.
 
The Uncola said:
To paraphrase a quote:

Anarchy by any other name, still stinks.
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So I see that mainstream American Libertarians are for getting rid of government now? Why wasn't I told?
 
Groucho said:
The greatest nation in the world -- with slavery, child labor, no regulation of unsafe foods, no public schools, no health care for the poor, and no rights for women.

Mind you, the competition back then wasn't much better. It's a lot easier to be the Greatest Nation in the World when everyone else is bad, too. :mrgreen:
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If they had continued to adhere to libertarian ideals it is far more likely that slavery would have died a natural death and our race relations would be GREATLY improved. Mr Johnsons peculiar institution had already been deemed illegal in several northern states before we even became a country. The importation of slaves had been stopped shortly after we became a country. The transition would have been MUCH more healthy. But because the federal government FORCED an end to slavery (via a 'civil' war) we STILl have people resisting and rebelliing some 150 years later.

Oh yes...'your' way worked SO much better. Blacks are doing SO WELL in this country.
 
VanceMack said:
If they had continued to adhere to libertarian ideals it is far more likely that slavery would have died a natural death and our race relations would be GREATLY improved. Mr Johnsons peculiar institution had already been deemed illegal in several northern states before we even became a country. The importation of slaves had been stopped shortly after we became a country. The transition would have been MUCH more healthy. But because the federal government FORCED an end to slavery (via a 'civil' war) we STILl have people resisting and rebelliing some 150 years later.

Oh yes...'your' way worked SO much better. Blacks are doing SO WELL in this country.
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This is why I can't take libertarians seriously. They live in some sort of Bizarro World where if the government were not involved then things would be perfect and we'd all be holding hands and singing about peace love and understanding.
 
Groucho said:
This is why I can't take libertarians seriously. They live in some sort of Bizarro World where if the government were not involved then things would be perfect and we'd all be holding hands and singing about peace love and understanding.
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Bingo. The oh-so-wonderful "private sector" drives our World Economy off a cliff, creates ecological disasters that might NEVER be overcome, SCREAMS to be bailed out by us when PROVED to be absolutely WRONG and then thumbs their nose at us and STEALS even more...

... the "private sector" and the teabaggers... proven losers.
 
Groucho said:
This is why I can't take libertarians seriously. They live in some sort of Bizarro World where if the government were not involved then things would be perfect and we'd all be holding hands and singing about peace love and understanding.
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Read a little on Pennsylvania...Rhode Island...Delaware...the actual real HISTORY of slavery, not just in the US but in the world...then get back to me.

Also it might help if you actually UNDERSTAND history. But then...Ive read far too many of your postings, so I get that you are an ideologue...all you see is what you see because it fits your tiny little ideals of right and wrong.

You DO know that the US didnt invent slavery...dont you? You DO know that it was practiced centuries before any European ever set foot on this land by its aboriginal people...right? You GET of course that slavery was practiced in Europe, Africa, the Americas, EVERYWHERE...right...and that it wasnt evil white people from Europe that landed in this new place and said..."hey...I have an idea..." I dont know if you have ever read the history on who the first person was to actually petition for the right to person ownership in the colonies...THAT makes for a stunning read actually. And you REALLY arent so fooolish as to believe the Civil War was started because the northern states wanted to end slavery because they cared about them and not for economic means. You PROBABLY havent ever read the history of many of the southern leaders who rejected slavery and even worked to change the institution while serving in federal government positions and only went back to the south reluctantly not to defend slavery but to resist the north in its attempt to FORCE the south into compliance with northern and federal rule. They could have been decision and change makers as well.

The US was already evolving on a societal level...far faster than ANY of our European counterparts. But as is typical with ANY form of forced coersion, the southern states rebelled and we still have the tensions we have today. Its really not that difficult of a concept. Two people can have a logical and progressive debate and exchange of ideals and eventually the right ideals usually win out. But when you tell the other side...change or Im going to kick your ass...well...golly...what happens next...hmmm...I wonder...

The libertarian model wouldnt have endorsed or condoned slavery. It would have allowed the spread of the anti-slavery movement to overcome the practice. Eventually slavery would have died off and I daresay race relations would be RADICALLY better. Now...of course...thats an OPINION...but as proof I MIGHT point to the fact that we have rampanat unemployment overall in the black communities...that their numbers are grossly overrepresented in prison...that their communities endure a far greater crime rate than any other communities in the country...that the black family has been devastated by democrat policies and ideologies...that put plainly...have NOT served America well.
 
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