What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights?

TurtleDude · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Pal said:
I believe gun ownership should be a privelege granted by the government. Driving is a privelege granted by the government because of the damage a person can do with a car if they don't know how to operate it. Guns can do just as much damage but actually have the intended purpose of killing or wounding people, while that's just a regrettable side effect of cars. No one should be allowed to use something that could easily kill innocent people if used incorrectly without the proper training. Considering the amount of training Police Officers must go through before they're entrusted with guns it just seems like a given to me that ordinary people who want to use guns should have to have some sort of training.

Of course, I understand that the Constitution disagrees with me. I don't need reminding.

Let me let you in on a big secret that those of us who are familiar with this issue all know

1) if you go to a p ublic target range or a gun club on a saturday afternoon and randomly select 10 people there and then go to say the Cincinnati or Columbus police department and randomly select 10 officers and then have both groups

a) shoot the police qualification course with say a standard handgun like a glock 17 or a beretta 92

b) give t hem a test on gun laws, gun types etc

you will almost always find that the non cop civilians are far better shots than the cops and know far more about guns

Justice department studies consistently demonstrate that when non cop civilians get into gun fights they are

a) far more likely to hit the bad guy

b) far less likely to hit an innocent by-stander than a cop

my 12 year old son can outshoot 90% of the cops in Ohio. I know-=he went to the top firearms/lethal force training facility in the state and proved that to instructors with years of experience including county swat captains, military police officers etc

of course he shoots about 4000 rounds a year out of his 22 pistol and another 1000 out of a smith and wesson 38

that is more than most cops will shoot in their lifetime

by the time he is 15 he should be a USPSA GM in limited division

repeter · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

TurtleDude said:
Let me let you in on a big secret that those of us who are familiar with this issue all know

1) if you go to a p ublic target range or a gun club on a saturday afternoon and randomly select 10 people there and then go to say the Cincinnati or Columbus police department and randomly select 10 officers and then have both groups

a) shoot the police qualification course with say a standard handgun like a glock 17 or a beretta 92

b) give t hem a test on gun laws, gun types etc

you will almost always find that the non cop civilians are far better shots than the cops and know far more about guns

Justice department studies consistently demonstrate that when non cop civilians get into gun fights they are

a) far more likely to hit the bad guy

b) far less likely to hit an innocent by-stander than a cop

my 12 year old son can outshoot 90% of the cops in Ohio. I know-=he went to the top firearms/lethal force training facility in the state and proved that to instructors with years of experience including county swat captains, military police officers etc

of course he shoots about 4000 rounds a year out of his 22 pistol and another 1000 out of a smith and wesson 38

that is more than most cops will shoot in their lifetime

by the time he is 15 he should be a USPSA GM in limited division

If that's true, that is a sad, sad fact. But why is that the case then? Shouldn't our law enforcement personnel be trained in self-defense with a weapon?

Pal · Apr 1, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

TurtleDude said:
Justice department studies consistently demonstrate...

Can you show us some of these studies?

Goobieman · Apr 1, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

hazlnut said:
Use a gun? I hope you're talking about hunting?
Because if you bring a gun to a rally with the specific intent to use it...

There are any number of legitimate uses for a gun. None of this changes anything I said - licensing, as you have cited it is based on the idea of the regulation of use of public property, and as such, must be similarly applied, should you want your argument to have any relevance.

In the rest of your response you're reading the second amendment through a keyhole...

Way to sidestep any attempt at a substantive debate. I'm not surprised.
How about you respond to the points I made, directly.

earthworm · Apr 1, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

The selections are far too restrictive, so- no vote, as usual.
There must be regulations and limits on rights, and we do need many more, as man misbehaves so much.
Specifically the extremest church against the father of the US Marine ...This gentleman's rights were violated by this "church", criminal charges should be filed.

misterman · Apr 1, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

earthworm said:
Specifically the extremest church against the father of the US Marine ...This gentleman's rights were violated by this "church", criminal charges should be filed.

What rights were violated?

I despise that church and what they did, and I would probably have committed a criminal offense against them myself if I had been there, but I'm not sure anyone's rights were violated.

molten_dragon · Apr 1, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

My thoughts on each of the options:

A license/permit required to exercise certain or all 1st amendment rights.

That's okay, such as holding a public gathering or assembly so as not to disrupt traffic etc.

A license/permit required to exercise certain or all 2nd amendment rights.

Yes, you should have to get a license to purchase a firearm.

Registration requirement of some or all of your books and other 1st amendment related things

No, this one's ridiculous.

Registration requirement of some or all of your firearms and other weapons.

Yes, you should have to register any firearms you own.

A ban on certain books,religions, what the press can report and etc.

Yes, banning certain uses of the first amendment (shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater and the like) are acceptable.

A ban on certain weapons.

Yes. Many weapons should remain in the hands of the military/police only.

A ban on certain individuals from exercising 1st amendment rights

Yes, this is acceptable under certain circumstances. I don't really know how you would enforce it though.

A ban on certain individuals form exercising 2nd amendment rights

Also acceptable. Convicted felons and people who can't pass a basic gun safety course are the first to come to mind.

A total ban on 1st amendment rights

Unacceptable.

A total ban on 2nd amendment rights

Also Unacceptable.

Goshin · Apr 1, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Pal said:
Can you show us some of these studies?

I'm an ex-cop, and I also teach defensive handgunning to non-LE citizens, and I back up what Turtledude said.

As for why? Most cops are working their butts off and making lousy pay. Most of their departments have limited training budgets, and lavish most of it on their special teams like SWAT.

By the time they get off-shift, the average LE just *might* have enough time and energy left to hit the weightroom for 30 minutes. If he wants extra practice (other than annual quals) with his firearm he will shell for the ammo out of his own pocket... try explaining to the missus that you're not taking her out to dinner this week because you spent the money on ammo. :doh

Contrariwise a lot of armed citizens, particularly of the CCW variety, are very dedicated shooters as a hobby and pastime, and many of them can afford to shell out the big bucks to get training time with the likes of Ken Hackathorne.

Having been in Law Enforcement, I am here to tell you that having a badge does not magically make you more competent with a gun than Joe Citizen, nor endow you with magically superior judgment or other superpowers.

TurtleDude · Apr 1, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

repeter said:
If that's true, that is a sad, sad fact. But why is that the case then? Shouldn't our law enforcement personnel be trained in self-defense with a weapon?

sure but most cops do the bare minimum to qualify

me, I am a former tour shooter and still shoot alot. When I was on the IPSC tour I was shooting 50 K of 9x21 or 45 a year. When I was a WC skeet shooter-at least 2000 registered targets a year and 8 x that in practice

I was a professional shooter so I shot alot. Cops are professional cops-shooting is just one of the many things they have to do and many don't particularly care for it

TurtleDude · Apr 1, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Pal said:
Can you show us some of these studies?

I had a copy at work for years

do you know how to use google?

TurtleDude · Apr 1, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Goshin said:
I'm an ex-cop, and I also teach defensive handgunning to non-LE citizens, and I back up what Turtledude said.

As for why? Most cops are working their butts off and making lousy pay. Most of their departments have limited training budgets, and lavish most of it on their special teams like SWAT.

By the time they get off-shift, the average LE just *might* have enough time and energy left to hit the weightroom for 30 minutes. If he wants extra practice (other than annual quals) with his firearm he will shell for the ammo out of his own pocket... try explaining to the missus that you're not taking her out to dinner this week because you spent the money on ammo. :doh

Contrariwise a lot of armed citizens, particularly of the CCW variety, are very dedicated shooters as a hobby and pastime, and many of them can afford to shell out the big bucks to get training time with the likes of Ken Hackathorne.

Having been in Law Enforcement, I am here to tell you that having a badge does not magically make you more competent with a gun than Joe Citizen, nor endow you with magically superior judgment or other superpowers.

Ken Hackathorne-one of the best

My favorite, John Benner and David Bowie (the swat guy and gunsmith not the rock singer) of the Tactical Defense Institute. I also was a guest instructor for Mas Ayoob's LFI many years ago. His stuff is very good on the legal aspects. John and David teach house clearing at the highest levels.

Some of my friends swore by Clint Smith or John Farnham as well. All are really good

Pal · Apr 2, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

TurtleDude said:
I had a copy at work for years

do you know how to use google?

Do you know how to debate?

I'm not saying I don't believe you. I just want to see specifically what you are referring to, the odds of me finding the specific study you're talking about just by typing random words into Google are slim, and even if I found it I wouldn't know it.

When you reference a source in a debate you have to provide that source if you expect it to be taken seriously.

jacksbrat · Apr 2, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

The Second Amendment reads: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

From this, the NRA and gun lobists have led the country to believe that it's the constitutional right of any Tom Dick and Harry to buy as many guns as they please. Hmmmm. Seems they read the constitution the way wealthy preachers read their bible. They read the parts they like and ignore the rest.

Orion · Apr 2, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

jamesrage said:
What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights?

(some options may be slightly modified to fit in the poll.)

A license/permit required to exercise certain or all 1st amendment rights

A license/permit required to exercise certain or all 2nd amendment rights

Registration requirement of some or all of your books,newspaper and other 1st amendment related things

Registration requirement of some or all of your firearms and other weapons.

A ban on certain books,religions, what the press can report and etc.

A ban on certain weapons.

A ban on certain individuals from exercising 1st amendment rights

A ban on certain individuals form exercising 2nd amendment rights

A total ban on 1st amendment rights

A total ban on 2nd amendment rights

I support a ban on certain weapons, and it should include those which go well beyond the means of self-defense.

As for the rest... First Amendment rights are already restricted in the U.S. when it comes to prisoners. Their letters are censored and they are not allowed to say certain things within the confines of penitentiaries, especially if they are within the walls of a privately run prison, even though the public sector sent them there.

Judges issue gag orders all the time, often at the behest of corporations that have billions of dollars in assets and can afford expert legal teams to petition the judicial system for its support in silencing dissent.

Freedom of assembly... this is circumvented with restraining orders. You don't have the right to assemble with whomever you please if a court says you are not allowed to meet with such and such person.

Cities issue permits for protests all the time, even though protesting falls under the first amendment. If you don't have a permit, you cannot march.

Essentially, anything deemed a "security risk" can have most rights in the constitution ignored for the sake of the greater public. The key here is a government that is both wise and responsible in honoring the truly necessary cases, and I feel, in the year 2010, that most governments are experts at working around stated constitutional rights. The courts and the media are their accomplices in this.

In this era, with enough money, enough lobbying, enough lawyers, and enough propaganda, most rights can be violated with relative ease.

misterman · Apr 2, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Pal said:
Do you know how to debate?

I'm not saying I don't believe you. I just want to see specifically what you are referring to, the odds of me finding the specific study you're talking about just by typing random words into Google are slim, and even if I found it I wouldn't know it.

When you reference a source in a debate you have to provide that source if you expect it to be taken seriously.

Whenever someone pulls this lame stunt, I simply tell them that I did look, and no such study exists. Then they are back to supporting their argument in order to prove I'm wrong. Works most of the time, except for the truly lazy ones.

Goobieman · Apr 2, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

molten_dragon said:
That's okay, such as holding a public gathering or assembly so as not to disrupt traffic etc.

Yes, you should have to get a license to purchase a firearm.

Given the constitutional basis for the former, what is your argument for the latter?

No, this one's ridiculous.

Yes, you should have to register any firearms you own

Same question

Yes, banning certain uses of the first amendment (shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater and the like) are acceptable.

Yes. Many weapons should remain in the hands of the military/police only

Same question.

Also acceptable. Convicted felons and people who can't pass a basic gun safety course are the first to come to mind.

How about a required course in relevant subject matter for journalists? Voters? Church goers?
Why not?

TurtleDude · Apr 2, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Pal said:
Do you know how to debate?

I'm not saying I don't believe you. I just want to see specifically what you are referring to, the odds of me finding the specific study you're talking about just by typing random words into Google are slim, and even if I found it I wouldn't know it.

When you reference a source in a debate you have to provide that source if you expect it to be taken seriously.

I know how to debate--I won a few major titles in college--and I also know what diversionary tactics are. you are a newbie I have never heard of and it is you who have to establish yourself for me to take you seriously. What I stated is well known to anyone in the field. GIYLF

TurtleDude · Apr 2, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

jacksbrat said:
The Second Amendment reads: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

From this, the NRA and gun lobists have led the country to believe that it's the constitutional right of any Tom Dick and Harry to buy as many guns as they please. Hmmmm. Seems they read the constitution the way wealthy preachers read their bible. They read the parts they like and ignore the rest.

what part of the constitution delegates to the federal government the power to prevent every Tom Dick and Harry the ability to buy as many guns as they want.

You statists seem to labour under the delusions that we need a constitutional grant of a right when in reality it is the government that needs to demonstrate a constitutional delegation of a power

Look it up-The concept of America was a limited federal government wielding only the powers specifically given it by the people and the several states

Goobieman · Apr 2, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

jacksbrat said:
From this, the NRA and gun lobists have led the country to believe that it's the constitutional right of any Tom Dick and Harry to buy as many guns as they please.

The court agrees - the 2nd protects an individual right, regardless of that individual's relationship to the militia.

Given that, how can a limit on the number of guns you can own be Constitutional?

Hmmmm. Seems they read the constitution the way wealthy preachers read their bible. They read the parts they like and ignore the rest.

This is unsupportable.

TurtleDude · Apr 2, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Goobieman said:
The court agrees - the 2nd protects an individual right, regardless of that individual's relationship to the militia.

Given that, how can a limit on the number of guns you can own be Constitutional?

This is unsupportable.

The people who emote on this issue just make stuff up based on how they feel. Your point is based on logic and the law, his is based on psychobabbling emotofactoids

Goobieman · Apr 2, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

TurtleDude said:
The people who emote on this issue just make stuff up based on how they feel. Your point is based on logic and the law, his is based on psychobabbling emotofactoids

Not surpisingly, I do not expect a reasoned response.

molten_dragon · Apr 2, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Goobieman said:
Given the constitutional basis for the former, what is your argument for the latter?

Same question

Same question.

How about a required course in relevant subject matter for journalists? Voters? Church goers?
Why not?

You can't make an apples to apples comparison between the first and second amendments. They simply don't match up that way, and trying to make them is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Goobieman · Apr 2, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

molten_dragon said:
You can't make an apples to apples comparison between the first and second amendments.

Both are fundamental, constitutional rights, and so both are afforded the beneft of strict scrutiny when judging permissible restrictions.
Thus, Apples and apples.

The restrictions on 'free speech' are all based on actions that directly cause harm to others, or place others in a condition of slear, present and immediate danger. This is based on the concept that your rights end when they affect the rights of others.

So, again, given the constitutional basis for the formers, what are your argument for the lattesr?

They simply don't match up that way, and trying to make them is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Support this with something meaningful.

Pal · Apr 2, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

TurtleDude said:
I know how to debate--I won a few major titles in college--and I also know what diversionary tactics are. you are a newbie I have never heard of and it is you who have to establish yourself for me to take you seriously. What I stated is well known to anyone in the field. GIYLF

:roll:

In other words you can't produce the evidence to back up your claims? I may have joined recently, but at least I don't make vague references to studies and refuse to provide a single link.

misterman · Apr 2, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

TurtleDude said:
I know how to debate--I won a few major titles in college--and I also know what diversionary tactics are.

You sure do know what they are - your using one yourself.

Supporting your own argument is the first rule of debate. So either you didn't really debate in college, or you are deliberately being a bad debater.

What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights?