What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights?

repeter · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

misterman said:
18? That'st still teen years. Hell, if you're worried about idiots with hormones, make it 25.

I don't think anyone could justify pushing the age limit that high, past the drinking age even. 18 would be the most moderate view, and would be most agreed upon

misterman · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

repeter said:
I don't think anyone could justify pushing the age limit that high, past the drinking age even. 18 would be the most moderate view, and would be most agreed upon

I know, just making a point. But maybe you should at least think about what I'm saying. If we justify restrictions based on maturity and hormones, 18 is not the best age. Nothing magic about 18, we can change it if we want.

hazlnut · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

jamesrage said:
What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights?

Not sure what the point is, but I'll play along:

A license/permit required to exercise certain or all 1st amendment rights

You need a permit to assemble in a public square? Why? Public safety outweighs your right to hold a protest anytime you want. Neo-nazis and the Westboro family cult are rarely denied permit. The city just wants to have the crowd control in place. No big deal. Get your permit and go scream your head off.

A license/permit required to exercise certain or all 2nd amendment rights

Gun science and gun culture has changed in the last 200 years, has it not?
In the interest of public safety, keeping track of handguns so police can track them after a crime has been committed etc.

The Turner Diaries paranoid delusions about the Government giving two ****s about what legal gun owners are doing is retarded.

Registration requirement of some or all of your books,newspaper and other 1st amendment related things

Not sure what this pertains too. Amazon.com keeps pretty good track of what you're reading. Why do you think they always suggest books you might like.

Registration requirement of some or all of your firearms and other weapons.

I think handguns are what most states track. Shotguns/rifles vary from state to state. Let the states decide what's in best interest of public safety.

A ban on certain books,religions, what the press can report and etc.

Banned books usually become classics and are required reading in most high schools.

The press should not report on anything that could put Americans in jeopardy-- like outing CIA agents.

A ban on certain weapons.

When a certain weapon becomes a threat to public safety. Explosives obviously should be regulated and tracked.

A ban on certain individuals from exercising 1st amendment rights

No. Can't think of any exceptions.

A ban on certain individuals form exercising 2nd amendment rights

The mentally ill.
Felons.

A total ban on 1st amendment rights

A total ban on 2nd amendment rights

No.

And no.

Ikari · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

repeter said:
And people will blame the government for allowing him to have his right to bear arms back. I'd side with those people; if a man/woman has murdered, and has been convicted of such, they have forfeited their right to bear arms.

For the time under which the government can legitimately punish the individual. After all punishment, probation, etc. has been completed, the full rights of the individual must once again be recognized.

hazlnut · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Ikari said:
For the time under which the government can legitimately punish the individual. After all punishment, probation, etc. has been completed, the full rights of the individual must once again be recognized.

Yeah, for running a red light.

But you commit armed robbery... F-you and your rights.

repeter · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

misterman said:
I know, just making a point. But maybe you should at least think about what I'm saying. If we justify restrictions based on maturity and hormones, 18 is not the best age. Nothing magic about 18, we can change it if we want.

Oh okay, I can agree with that, on that basis.

Ikari · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

hazlnut said:
But you commit armed robbery... F-you and your rights.

Just to let you know, I got thread banned once for that exact same phrase. Not that I really take offense to it; but just letting you know.

But I don't care what you think about it, the rights and liberties of the individual are what the government was created to protect, and it is in that light in which you can maximize freedom. I would much rather people have the full of their rights recognized once again than to allow abusive punishments from the government which infringe on the very basics.

repeter · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Ikari said:
For the time under which the government can legitimately punish the individual. After all punishment, probation, etc. has been completed, the full rights of the individual must once again be recognized.

But if the person in question kills someone with a gun after serving his sentence, that could easily have been avoided, by simply not allowing him to procure that firearm in the first place.

Ikari · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

repeter said:
But if the person in question kills someone with a gun after serving his sentence, that could easily have been avoided, by simply not allowing him to procure that firearm in the first place.

Nope. Rights are absolute. And it's not easily avoided. If someone with a criminal record already wants to off someone, they are already in contact with everyone they need to know to go about getting a gun. So it's not really a protection as much as it is draconian law allowing for the expansion of government power against the rights and liberties of the individual.

Goobieman · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

hazlnut said:
You need a permit to assemble in a public square? Why? Public safety outweighs your right to hold a protest anytime you want.

These are time/place/manner restrctiuons and apply to just that event, and only so long as that event is on public property.

For this argument to apply toi guns, it has to be applied in the same manner -- that is, for when you want to use a gun on publis property.

Gun science and gun culture has changed in the last 200 years, has it not? In the interest of public safety, keeping track of handguns so police can track them after a crime has been committed etc.

Except that registraton is a precondition placed on the exercise of a right not inherent to same. This means it is an infringement, just as a requirement to register with the government before you can go to church.

The only way registration is NOT an infringement is if it passes a test of strict scrutiny, where you show a compelling state interest, and that said precondition is the least restrictive means to achieve that interest.

Good luck with that, especilly given the level to which a 'compelling state interest' must rise.

Not sure what this pertains too. Amazon.com keeps pretty good track of what you're reading. Why do you think they always suggest books you might like.

This is not an action taken by the state. Apples and tuna.

When a certain weapon becomes a threat to public safety.

Few, if any, of these weapons fall under the definition of 'arms' as the term is used in the 2nd.

hazlnut · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Ikari said:
Just to let you know, I got thread banned once for that exact same phrase. Not that I really take offense to it; but just letting you know.

But I don't care what you think about it, the rights and liberties of the individual are what the government was created to protect, and it is in that light in which you can maximize freedom. I would much rather people have the full of their rights recognized once again than to allow abusive punishments from the government which infringe on the very basics.

Preventing someone who committed armed robbery from ever owning a gun again is hardly abusive... That person has violated the public trust to such a degree that he has forfeited one of his rights.

In the same way sex offenders should be prohibited from hanging out at arcades or working with kids...

misterman · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

hazlnut said:
Preventing someone who committed armed robbery from ever owning a gun again is hardly abusive... That person has violated the public trust to such a degree that he has forfeited one of his rights.

In the same way sex offenders should be prohibited from hanging out at arcades or working with kids...

Good point. I'd like to see anyone suggest a pedophile can go back to work at the kindergarten when his prison term is up.

Ikari · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

hazlnut said:
Preventing someone who committed armed robbery from ever owning a gun again is hardly abusive... That person has violated the public trust to such a degree that he has forfeited one of his rights.

In the same way sex offenders should be prohibited from hanging out at arcades or working with kids...

Rights aren't about public trust. Rights are about innate abilities to the individual which limit the powers of government. That's what a right is. Thus when you infringe upon the rights of the individual through due process, there is a limitation to how long you can use force of government to infringe upon the exercise of those rights. If it's not life in prison without parole, you're on the clock. And when the clock expires, the full rights and liberties of the individual are once again recognized in full.

misterman · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Ikari said:
Rights aren't about public trust. Rights are about innate abilities to the individual which limit the powers of government. That's what a right is. Thus when you infringe upon the rights of the individual through due process, there is a limitation to how long you can use force of government to infringe upon the exercise of those rights. If it's not life in prison without parole, you're on the clock. And when the clock expires, the full rights and liberties of the individual are once again recognized in full.

So pedophiles should get all their rights back, including the right to work anywhere they want, and the right to privacy (i.e. not being listed on a public registry)?

Goshin · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

repeter said:
But if the person in question kills someone with a gun after serving his sentence, that could easily have been avoided, by simply not allowing him to procure that firearm in the first place.

Why would you want to EVER let someone out of prison who committed armed robbery?

Think about it... if you commit armed robbery you are putting the lives of everyone involved at risk. Even if you do so with no intent of killing anyone, what if the clerk pulls a gun? What if a customer jumps you? What if the cops suddenly show up? In many cases when these things happen, somebody gets killed even if the perp didn't originally intend to murder.

Keep scumbags who do these things in prison for life, and you don't have to worry about it so much.

Ikari · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

misterman said:
So pedophiles should get all their rights back, including the right to work anywhere they want, and the right to privacy (i.e. not being listed on a public registry)?

You don't have a right to work anywhere you want. Where the hell would you get that idea from? The employer has all the say in the matter.

And of course everyone has the right to secure themselves, their effects, their property, and their papers from unreasonable search and seizure. But their crimes are all matter of public record. I wouldn't allow the government to database the list; but it wouldn't stop a private company from doing so.

misterman · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Ikari said:
You don't have a right to work anywhere you want. Where the hell would you get that idea from? The employer has all the say in the matter.

I am speaking of legal or judicial restrictions on employment.

And of course everyone has the right to secure themselves, their effects, their property, and their papers from unreasonable search and seizure. But their crimes are all matter of public record.

Yes, but only sex offenders are required to reveal their current addresses and pictures for a special website in most states AFTER they complete their punishment.

I wouldn't allow the government to database the list; but it wouldn't stop a private company from doing so.

So do you oppose sex offender websites run by the government?

hazlnut · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Goobieman said:
These are time/place.manner restrctiuons and apply to just that event, and only so long as that event is on public property.

For this argument to apply toi guns, it has to be applied in the same manner -- that is, for when you want to use a gun on publis property.

Use a gun? I hope you're talking about hunting?

Because if you bring a gun to a rally with the specific intent to use it...

In the rest of your response you're reading the second amendment through a keyhole... Gun laws have been upheld, gun laws have been struck down. The ones on the books right now are sometimes not being enforced--the gun show loophole is a joke. 400 Mayors have asked the federal government to step in a track guns that cross state lines.... Close the loopholes and crack down the illegal traffic of illegal guns.

No one is taking away any of your precious rights. I'm sure you got a gun for each hand and more ammo than you can shake a stick at. But if you decide to sell one of your guns for some quick cash to a friend who sells it to someone who uses it in crime in which my daughter is shot... I want the cops kicking in your door...

You and your overzealous misreading of the 2nd amendment can be damned. I want every bullet you buy to have a mark on it that we can trance back to you. If you shoot at tin cans and deer all day-- fine. No problem.

But if one of those bullets ends up in my wife while she's standing online at the bank... I want your ass hauled in to answer question so we can catch the person who did it. Get it. What's so hard to understand about that?

The life of every innocent person that has died from a gunshot is more important than you having to fill out paperwork!! Or buy a gun safe, or follow some rules.

Stop pretending that guns are just like words or religion or books.

Public safety vastly outweighs your inconvenience when buying that new model glock. Fill out the paperwork and go blast a cap in a rabbit.

jamesrage · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

repeter said:
And people will blame the government for allowing him to have his right to bear arms back. I'd side with those people; if a man/woman has murdered, and has been convicted of such, they have forfeited their right to bear arms.

I think most reasonable people would blame the government or the judge who gave that individual a slap on the wrist.

jamesrage · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

hazlnut said:
Not sure what the point is, but I'll play along:

You need a permit to assemble in a public square? Why? Public safety outweighs your right to hold a protest anytime you want. Neo-nazis and the Westboro family cult are rarely denied permit. The city just wants to have the crowd control in place. No big deal. Get your permit and go scream your head off..

The permit is over use of property, not the protest.

Gun science and gun culture has changed in the last 200 years, has it not?

Guns have changed alot since the first hand canons in Europe in 1300s to the guns our founding forefathers used. They didn't have computers, Televisions, phones, mass printing devices, Mormons, Scientologist and many other things back in 1700s, but yet no one is going we should required licenses or registrations for those things So the technology argument is not valid.

In the interest of public safety, keeping track of handguns so police can track them after a crime has been committed etc.

How many crimes have been solved this way?What are the statistics of criminals stupid enough to register their firearms? Registrations do not prevent crime nor do they significantly help police solve crimes and registrations are nothing more than a prelude to confiscation. So there is no justifiable reason to require registrations.

Not sure what this pertains too. Amazon.com keeps pretty good track of what you're reading. Why do you think they always suggest books you might like.

I do not buy books online. I pay for everything with cash.

When a certain weapon becomes a threat to public safety. Explosives obviously should be regulated and tracked.

Any weapon is a threat to the public.So I fail to see how the public safety thing is even an issue.

No. Can't think of any exceptions.

What about someone who has committed treason, libel/slander or made threats against someone?

Ikari · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

misterman said:
I am speaking of legal or judicial restrictions on employment.

Background checks are common in jobs, and this sort of thing would come up. I don't see the need for government in this case.

misterman said:
Yes, but only sex offenders are required to reveal their current addresses and pictures for a special website in most states AFTER they complete their punishment.

Much of that is pretty suspect in what they do to sex offenders. There was a place in FL which basically made them live under an overpass. That type of **** is BS.

misterman said:
So do you oppose sex offender websites run by the government?

Yes, the government doesn't need to be compiling the database. Everything that needs to be known is part of the public record and a private company can do it.

misterman · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Ikari said:
Background checks are common in jobs, and this sort of thing would come up. I don't see the need for government in this case.

So you oppose any judges imposing restrictions on where a pedophile can work?

Much of that is pretty suspect in what they do to sex offenders. There was a place in FL which basically made them live under an overpass. That type of **** is BS.

Yes, the government doesn't need to be compiling the database. Everything that needs to be known is part of the public record and a private company can do it.

As long as you're consistent.

Ikari · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

misterman said:
So you oppose any judges imposing restrictions on where a pedophile can work?

I'm pretty sure it said exactly that. A business will be liable for their employees. Any business which deals directly with children will not want to hire pedophiles. Since their criminal record is open public record, a background check will find this. The same would go with any State licensing necessary to start such businesses. It's all pretty well taken care of before hand.

misterman said:
As long as you're consistent.

I always am.

misterman · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

Ikari said:
I always am.

That's a good thing, unless you're consistently bad.

TurtleDude · Mar 31, 2010

Re: What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights

repeter said:
But if the person in question kills someone with a gun after serving his sentence, that could easily have been avoided, by simply not allowing him to procure that firearm in the first place.

how you gonna accomplish that?

someone who is willing to kill is going to be respectful of a gun law?

OH-do you think a ban on guns is gonna work better than a total ban on crack or speed?

What are reasonable restrictions/infringements on 1st and second amendment rights?