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Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

  • Yes, this particular young man is a perfect example

    Votes: 12 20.3%
  • No, never.

    Votes: 31 52.5%
  • The justice system needs another alternative for extremely young, potentially dangerous offenders

    Votes: 11 18.6%
  • Other, please explain

    Votes: 5 8.5%

  • Total voters
    59
First off thanks for the compliment, but you must have a poor opinion of teens if you think I'm particularly mature and intelligent. :mrgreen: Part of the problem teens have is communicating with people because the adult world seldom listens and just thinks we are dumb. It is only on boards like this we can express ourselves, and even then I am reluctant to advertise my age. I am flattered by your confidence in the 11 year old me, but I'm sorry to say it is not justified. I was a very wild kid, and by the time I was 13 I had got into serious trouble - nothing which would have sent me to prison, but pretty serious trouble all the same. The point of telling you this is to demonstrate that not only the terminally dumb get in trouble, but also my experiences have helped me learn about human consequences. That is why I feel so strongly about this subject.

I have two teenage step daughters. I am exposed to more teenagers than I care to and can still say quite honestly you are a breath of fresh air. Unfortunately, you're not doing my country much good unless you immigrate!

Again, I don't know you. I don't know your definition of "wild," though I doubt it includes causing physical harm to anyone. However, if you had intentionally hurt someone, would you have known at the age of 11 that it was wrong and that you would be punished?

Of course I can't be sure about this, but I honestly doubt he had a clear idea of what dying is, and its consequences to those who loved his victim. I was considered a pretty bright kid by everyone - my mum, my relatives, my teachers, etc. when I was his age, but I dunno if I really had much of a handle on death at that time. I have never been around guns (not even my dad's service revolver or his fowling pieces,) but I cannot be certain that I would not have killed someone by accident, or in a rage, if I had access to firearms when I was 11. And I come from a stable, non-abusive home.

No one has a clear idea of what dying is. I can't say my understanding of it has become any more advanced of death has become any more advanced since I was a kid, except perhaps I'm a tad less afraid of it. The point remains though that in sixth grade, I knew I didn't want to die, I knew I didn't want anyone I loved to die and I had the ability to expand that understanding to include the fact that other people wouldn't want their loved ones to die. Possibly I was a genius, though I have the sneak suspicion that I was just a normal kid.

Kids know murder is wrong. They know what death is. They know there are consequences for their actions. That they chose to ignore self control does not change the fact that they are still responsible for their actions. I don't see any other factor that remains for them to avoid being held to the same level of punishment as adults.

And I mean no disrespect to your views when I say that it just seems improper to try this kid, or any kid his age, as an adult. I have discussed this with my uncle who is a Queen's Council in London, and he tells me that would be an impossibility in any civilised jurisdiction. He drew my attention to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and in particular to the articles that say no one under 18 shall be subject to the adult penal code, failing which, the establishment of a minimum age below which children shall be presumed not to have the capacity to infringe the penal law, irrespective of the crime, is mandatory. But the convention specifies 18.

Unfortunately, the only two societies on earth which have refused to ratify this convention are Somalia and the United States of America. :unsure13:

I have no shame for that. You cannot possibly believe that someone that's 17 and 364 days has no idea what they're doing when they kill someone, but someone that's 18 does.

I'll ask you the same thing I asked jallman. What list of criteria do you think should be present that can be applied to ALL offenders to decide if they should be tried as adults or children. Obviously there's some level of comprehension that you believe adults have that children do not. What makes up that comprehension, in your mind?
 
Kelzie, thanks for your long and thoughtful response. Honestly, I respect the patience with which you, as a mum with teenage daughters, are approaching this discussion, and I am trying to explain to you my thoughts on the matter. Again, I mean no disrespect, but I suspect we are not going to convince each other of our respective points of view. But I appreciate the fact that you are not simply dismissive of my views.

I find it disturbing that your society and justice system could view an 11 year old as a fully responsible adult. I think there is the possiblity that the kid did not fully understand the consequences of his actions.

And there is another side of it for me. A couple of years ago I spent a very enjoyable time visiting and travelling around your society. The Americans I met were great, and very friendly and generous, especially to kids (I was like 14 then). I guess I'm disappointed that the same warm friendly society can try an 11 year old kid on a capital crime as an adult. It just doesn't jive with the nice people I met. :unsure13:
 
Kelzie, thanks for your long and thoughtful response. Honestly, I respect the patience with which you, as a mum with teenage daughters, are approaching this discussion, and I am trying to explain to you my thoughts on the matter. Again, I mean no disrespect, but I suspect we are not going to convince each other of our respective points of view. But I appreciate the fact that you are not simply dismissive of my views.

I find it disturbing that your society and justice system could view an 11 year old as a fully responsible adult. I think there is the possiblity that the kid did not fully understand the consequences of his actions.

And there is another side of it for me. A couple of years ago I spent a very enjoyable time visiting and travelling around your society. The Americans I met were great, and very friendly and generous, especially to kids (I was like 14 then). I guess I'm disappointed that the same warm friendly society can try an 11 year old kid on a capital crime as an adult. It just doesn't jive with the nice people I met. :unsure13:

Well, as long as you don't go murdering pregnant women, I imagine all your visits will be just as pleasant!

I find it disturbing that a society would view someone as not responsible simply because of his/her age. Now if it could be shown that they are lacking some quality that makes them not mature enough to understand the nature of their crime, then I agree, they should be charged as a child.
 
I find it disturbing that your society and justice system could view an 11 year old as a fully responsible adult. I think there is the possiblity that the kid did not fully understand the consequences of his actions.

I don't think that anybody views them as a fully responsible adult. Some of us to view their actions (murder) as one that transcends age. Murder requires forethought. A person that is 11 is capable of understanding that killing a person is wrong. It is that simple.
 
I don't think that anybody views them as a fully responsible adult. Some of us to view their actions (murder) as one that transcends age. Murder requires forethought. A person that is 11 is capable of understanding that killing a person is wrong. It is that simple.

Fair enough, I guess. But that body of water that separates us is a lot wider than I first thought. :2wave:
 
Fair enough, I guess. But that body of water that separates us is a lot wider than I first thought. :2wave:

That is possible. I have found that people are more alike than they care to admit, in most cases. Most people agree on the idea of a problem - children murdering is wrong, the separation comes in deciding how to solve the problem. The differences can be small, and lead to so many more damn problems.
 
Fair enough, I guess. But that body of water that separates us is a lot wider than I first thought. :2wave:

Not really. There are some civilized people here in the US who are capable of understanding that children are children and should not be treated as adults.
 
Not really. There are some civilized people here in the US who are capable of understanding that children are children and should not be treated as adults.

So those of us that think that a murdering 11 year old should be treated to the same consequence as an adult are not civilized? Say it ain't so jallman! :lol:
 
Not really. There are some civilized people here in the US who are capable of understanding that children are children and should not be treated as adults.

Because the rest of us by implication are uncivilized and incapable of understanding? That's hardly fair. The most that you could say is we have a different idea of who is reponsible for their own actions.
 
Because the rest of us by implication are uncivilized and incapable of understanding? That's hardly fair. The most that you could say is we have a different idea of who is reponsible for their own actions.

Anyone who would place an 11 year old in the way of facing a capital offense as an adult is not civilized by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Anyone who would place an 11 year old in the way of facing a capital offense as an adult is not civilized by any stretch of the imagination.

What about some green tea, if you can't stomach coffee? Better yet, it's five o'clock somewhere.

I've already gone over my completely logical rational for why they should be treated the same. I won't rehash it just because I don't look at kids with the same fuzzy feeling that you do. If they act like an adult and have the comprehension of an adult in all relevant areas, the only reason to treat them like a child is because our society wants to operate under the illusion that kids are innocent, wide-eyed angels that need our help to live and make decisions. At some ages, that is true. 11 is far past it.
 
What about some green tea, if you can't stomach coffee? Better yet, it's five o'clock somewhere.

Shove off. I am not interested in your snarky comments.

I've already gone over my completely logical rational for why they should be treated the same. I won't rehash it just because I don't look at kids with the same fuzzy feeling that you do.

It has zero to do with fuzzy feelings despite your desperate need to paint it as such.

If they act like an adult and have the comprehension of an adult in all relevant areas, the only reason to treat them like a child is because our society wants to operate under the illusion that kids are innocent, wide-eyed angels that need our help to live and make decisions. At some ages, that is true. 11 is far past it.

The pure sophistry and dishonest spin with which you paint my position is...enlightening when it comes to the genuine nature of your own stance.

Putting an 11 year old in front of a capital offense as an adult is third world, barbaric and brutal. It is anything but civilized.
 
Anyone who would place an 11 year old in the way of facing a capital offense as an adult is not civilized by any stretch of the imagination.

Awwe, no you gone and hurt my feelings. :(

There isn't any logical reason that excludes minors from facing a capital offense. Every person is different, and it is obvious that people mature and understand at different rates. Instead of off-handed indirect and opinionated insults, maybe you will clearly show how such a view as Kelzie's and mine is "uncivilized"?

I can't wait!
 
Shove off. I am not interested in your snarky comments.

It has zero to do with fuzzy feelings despite your desperate need to paint it as such.

The pure sophistry and dishonest spin with which you paint my position is...enlightening when it comes to the genuine nature of your own stance.

Putting an 11 year old in front of a capital offense as an adult is third world, barbaric and brutal. It is anything but civilized.

What on earth is wrong with you?

Okay, if you want to start this all over, what exactly defines a civilized society to you?
 
Awwe, no you gone and hurt my feelings. :(

I don't give a flying **** about your feelings. Who are you, anyway?

There isn't any logical reason that excludes minors from facing a capital offense.

Bull****. The reasons have been given right here in this thread if you were of half a mind to read it.

Every person is different,

So? The law treats everyone equally. Blind justice and all that...

and it is obvious that people mature and understand at different rates.

So? The law treats everyone equally. Blind justice and all that...

Instead of off-handed indirect and opinionated insults,

Buddy, if I throw an insult, it won't be off-handed and indirect and you will KNOW it was an insult. Until then, get over it.

maybe you will clearly show how such a view as Kelzie's and mine is "uncivilized"?

I can't wait!

It's already been shown so you don't have to wait. But please, do us a favor and hold your breath for my response. :2wave:
 
What on earth is wrong with you?

Okay, if you want to start this all over, what exactly defines a civilized society to you?

I don't want to start this all over again, actually. I've heard about all I care to hear out of you people for a while. You and flea enjoy patting each other on the back for being base barbarians. I don't really care anymore.
 
I don't want to start this all over again, actually. I've heard about all I care to hear out of you people for a while. You and flea enjoy patting each other on the back for being base barbarians. I don't really care anymore.

You cared just enough to drop by and insult us? We weren't patting each other on the back. We were having a mature, polite discussion with a teenager, comparing our views and our basis for them. Thank you for so perfectly illustrating that age has nothing to do with maturity.
 
Thank you for so perfectly illustrating that age has nothing to do with maturity.

And thank you for demonstrating exactly why I have no interest in continuing this discussion with you concerning children, your barbarism, and green tea or whatever the **** it was you were trying to say.
 
The law treats everyone the same? Four-year-olds can get the chair now?

:rolleyes:
 
There isn't any logical reason that excludes minors from facing a capital offense.

It's the same logic that keeps mentally retarded and mentally ill people from being charged with a capital offense. :2wave:
 
They know the difference between right and wrong, MM.

I told you to put the gun down by the count of three or you'd go to the electric chair, and get no dessert!
 
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