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Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

  • Yes, this particular young man is a perfect example

    Votes: 12 20.3%
  • No, never.

    Votes: 31 52.5%
  • The justice system needs another alternative for extremely young, potentially dangerous offenders

    Votes: 11 18.6%
  • Other, please explain

    Votes: 5 8.5%

  • Total voters
    59
It becomes subjective when the math teacher decides that Little Kung Pao is smarter at the maths than Little Suzy Q and applies a curve based on that subjective decision. It is only objective when the answer is either right or wrong, or in the case of this discussion when the mean age is established by a baseline and never deviated from based on the feelings of an evaluator.

Unfortunately social sciences can never be completely objective. However, we can make objective standards and hope that all evaluators make an honest effort to examine the offender based off of those standards.

That is a completely different issue and only performed in preparation for a plea of "not guilty by reason of mental defect" or in the case of obvious psychological distress that mitigates culpability even further. It is not a baseline evaluation for whether the subject is an adult or a child and whether the law should be applied differently to that subject.

Except we're essentially declaring them not guilty by reason of age. If a court trusts a psychiatrist to decide when an adult is competent to be charged as an adult, why wouldn't they trust a psychiatrist to decide when a child is comptent to be tried as an adult.
 
Then I don't know what to tell you because I have read exactly what you keep denying a total of 3 times in the last 12 pages.

Can you just retype the standards? Really quick, it can be a list. Look, I'll redo mine too.

-understand what they did was wrong
-acted with intent
-understand the consequences of what they did
-capable of understanding the trial process

I say if anyone meets all those standards, they should be tried as an adult. All I'm looking for as a point of comparison is a set of universal standards from you.
 
Unfortunately social sciences can never be completely objective. However, we can make objective standards and hope that all evaluators make an honest effort to examine the offender based off of those standards.

Hope is not a reliable method of depending on objectivity. And pursuit of justice needs to have as much exact precision as possible, which means removing human judgment where able. That is the only way to apply equal and consistent culpability to the defendant.

Except we're essentially declaring them not guilty by reason of age.

Hold up...we are not declaring anyone "not guilty" yet. That's getting way ahead of the argument concerning which justice system in which to place them. No one here is arguing that this kid is "not guilty" as it appears he clearly is. We are only arguing what mitigations in culpability and what considerations for legal consequence he, or any defendant, should receive at the onset of their trial. I think it's reasonable for an 11 year old to receive certain considerations based on the fact that it appears he was never properly socialized or morally instructed. You don't think something went wrong somewhere that put a loaded gun in the hands of a disturbed 11 year old that might limit his culpability here and indicate that an adult who was responsible for his well being (emotionally and mentally) failed him somewhere?

If a court trusts a psychiatrist to decide when an adult is competent to be charged as an adult, why wouldn't they trust a psychiatrist to decide when a child is comptent to be tried as an adult.

I would trust a panel to do a study and create a baseline from which to determine a standard age based on a statistical mean and go from there. Take, for instance, your example of the math teacher grading the test: the answer is right or wrong with no consideration for the gifted's ability to perform with 100% accuracy or the slow to perform with 20% accuracy. But they are all in the same class together and so they all perform together.
 
Can you just retype the standards? Really quick, it can be a list. Look, I'll redo mine too.

-understand what they did was wrong
-acted with intent
-understand the consequences of what they did
-capable of understanding the trial process

I say if anyone meets all those standards, they should be tried as an adult. All I'm looking for as a point of comparison is a set of universal standards from you.

I would say that we establish a statistically consistent age at which the child:

- Has a reasonable expectation of impulse control
- Has a reasonable expectation to know right from wrong
- Has developed a sense of individuality that allows for personal judgment to override the influence of parental figures
- Has developed emotional stability that allows for the child to be outside the supervision of adults for extended periods without any fear of emotion overriding moral instruction
- Is expected to behave without persistent supervision of adults
- Emotional or mental disturbance would be evident in the child's behavior and not written off as immaturity
- Is capable of understanding the far reaching consequences of his actions, including the permanence of them and a holistic view of how his actions affect others

Let me repeat...these points don't indicate guilt or innocence. They only indicate whether culpability should be mitigated or aggravated.
 
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I would say that we establish a statistically consistent age at which the child:

- Has a reasonable expectation of impulse control
- Has a reasonable expectation to know right from wrong
- Has developed a sense of individuality that allows for personal judgment to override the influence of parental figures
- Has developed emotional stability that allows for the child to be outside the supervision of adults for extended periods without any fear of emotion overriding moral instruction
- Is expected to behave without persistent supervision of adults
- Emotional or mental disturbance would be evident in the child's behavior and not written off as immaturity
- Is capable of understanding the far reaching consequences of his actions, including the permanence of them and a holistic view of how his actions affect others

Let me repeat...these points don't indicate guilt or innocence. They only indicate whether culpability should be mitigated or aggravated.

I'm down with those. So just so I'm not putting words into your mouth, if a child meets those standards, they should be tried as an adult?
 
I'm down with those. So just so I'm not putting words into your mouth, if a child meets those standards, they should be tried as an adult?

No, I am saying that a baseline age that the statistical mean of children sampled meet those criteria should be established and after that no one gets graded on any kind of curve. It becomes THE standard and is never deviated from. Ever.
 
No, I am saying that a baseline age that the statistical mean of children sampled meet those criteria should be established and after that no one gets graded on any kind of curve. It becomes THE standard and is never deviated from. Ever.

That seems a little unfair. Kids develop extremely differently.
 
That seems a little unfair. Kids develop extremely differently.

I am willing to bet a finger on the fact that you wont find 10 percent of 11 year olds that meet all those criteria.

All I am saying is that to give everyone a fair shake and take into account that some move ahead and some fall behind, you got to find that baseline and say "this is it. Cross this line and it becomes a whole different matter". And that line is the line for everyone...no deviation. It's the only consistent, objective, and equitable application of justice.
 
I am willing to bet a finger on the fact that you wont find 10 percent of 11 year olds that meet all those criteria.

All I am saying is that to give everyone a fair shake and take into account that some move ahead and some fall behind, you got to find that baseline and say "this is it. Cross this line and it becomes a whole different matter". And that line is the line for everyone...no deviation. It's the only consistent, objective, and equitable application of justice.

I'd bet more than 50% do. Plus, it's just one finger. You can't feel that strongly about it.

It's consistent, but it's certainly not equitable. If you're going to establish that baseline according to the median of kid's maturity level, that necessarily means half of the kids will have been more mature before that age and half won't be that mature until a later age. I like my way better. Plus, it creates jobs.
 
I'd bet more than 50% do. Plus, it's just one finger. You can't feel that strongly about it.

It's consistent, but it's certainly not equitable. If you're going to establish that baseline according to the median of kid's maturity level, that necessarily means half of the kids will have been more mature before that age and half won't be that mature until a later age. I like my way better. Plus, it creates jobs.

LOL, ok so up the statistic point of importance. Make it 75% or even 80%. The first age marker for a random sampling of kids where they pass the evaluation with 80% consistency becomes the standard for everyone and remove the subjective factor of human judgment and error from the process for everyone regardless of race, class, etc. That might actually be the statistical mode rather than median. I was never very good at statistics anyway.

You know me, I like simplified processes that have black and white answers. :2razz:
 
LOL, ok so up the statistic point of importance. Make it 75% or even 80%. The first age marker for a random sampling of kids where they pass the evaluation with 80% consistency becomes the standard for everyone and remove the subjective factor of human judgment and error from the process for everyone regardless of race, class, etc. That might actually be the statistical mode rather than median. I was never very good at statistics anyway.

You know me, I like simplified processes that have black and white answers. :2razz:

Mmm...I'm a bigger fan of 50%. But at this point, we're just quibbling over details. Unless you have a hookup with someone that can change the legal system for us?
 
Mmm...I'm a bigger fan of 50%. But at this point, we're just quibbling over details. Unless you have a hookup with someone that can change the legal system for us?

Justice Roberts isn't bad looking. ;)
 
No, I am saying that a baseline age that the statistical mean of children sampled meet those criteria should be established and after that no one gets graded on any kind of curve. It becomes THE standard and is never deviated from. Ever.

The whole point of a statistical curve is to measure deviation. If you simply take an average and base your standards on that, you defeat the purpose.
 
The whole point of a statistical curve is to measure deviation. If you simply take an average and base your standards on that, you defeat the purpose.

No, you set a standard and no one gets graded on a curve at all. That's the purpose and you would know that if you had bothered to read the entire discussion. In fact, it states that in plain english in the exact post you quoted.
 
No, you set a standard and no one gets graded on a curve at all. That's the purpose and you would know that if you had bothered to read the entire discussion. In fact, it states that in plain english in the exact post you quoted.

True, and then you said:

LOL, ok so up the statistic point of importance. Make it 75% or even 80%. The first age marker for a random sampling of kids where they pass the evaluation with 80% consistency becomes the standard for everyone

But never mind.
 
I am sure that if someone had an honest discussion with the boy before he killed his stepmother, he would know what dying means to her. He could have told you the effect it would have on his father and on her family. He could have told you want dying means to his unborn sibling and the loss of a life that never got a chance.

Is he as aware of the morality surrounding murder as he will be at 16? Of course not. Just like an 18 year-old doesn't have the same moral maturity as a 25 year-old. And yet (most) of us are comfortably trying an 18 year-old as an adult. The fact that he is still going to develop is not a factor in deciding what court to try him in. As previously mentioned, the brain continues developing until the age of 25.

And I don't know you, but you seem shockingly mature and intelligent for a 16 year-old. I highly doubt you would have murdered someone five years ago.

First off thanks for the compliment, but you must have a poor opinion of teens if you think I'm particularly mature and intelligent. :mrgreen: Part of the problem teens have is communicating with people because the adult world seldom listens and just thinks we are dumb. It is only on boards like this we can express ourselves, and even then I am reluctant to advertise my age. I am flattered by your confidence in the 11 year old me, but I'm sorry to say it is not justified. I was a very wild kid, and by the time I was 13 I had got into serious trouble - nothing which would have sent me to prison, but pretty serious trouble all the same. The point of telling you this is to demonstrate that not only the terminally dumb get in trouble, but also my experiences have helped me learn about human consequences. That is why I feel so strongly about this subject.

Of course I can't be sure about this, but I honestly doubt he had a clear idea of what dying is, and its consequences to those who loved his victim. I was considered a pretty bright kid by everyone - my mum, my relatives, my teachers, etc. when I was his age, but I dunno if I really had much of a handle on death at that time. I have never been around guns (not even my dad's service revolver or his fowling pieces,) but I cannot be certain that I would not have killed someone by accident, or in a rage, if I had access to firearms when I was 11. And I come from a stable, non-abusive home.

And I mean no disrespect to your views when I say that it just seems improper to try this kid, or any kid his age, as an adult. I have discussed this with my uncle who is a Queen's Council in London, and he tells me that would be an impossibility in any civilised jurisdiction. He drew my attention to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and in particular to the articles that say no one under 18 shall be subject to the adult penal code, failing which, the establishment of a minimum age below which children shall be presumed not to have the capacity to infringe the penal law, irrespective of the crime, is mandatory. But the convention specifies 18.

Unfortunately, the only two societies on earth which have refused to ratify this convention are Somalia and the United States of America. :unsure13:
 
Why? So I could be jittery and have the same opinion of you I had before? No thanks.

Not just jittery! You also get coffee breath for a couple hours.
 
Why? So I could be jittery and have the same opinion of you I had before? No thanks.

Good point - maybe you've already had too much coffee.
 
Only nasty if you start breathing on us.

Yeah, I don't do the coffee thing. I am more of a juice guy. Coffee makes me so hyper I can't stand to be around myself.
 
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