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Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

  • Yes, this particular young man is a perfect example

    Votes: 12 20.3%

  • No, never.

    Votes: 31 52.5%

  • The justice system needs another alternative for extremely young, potentially dangerous offenders

    Votes: 11 18.6%

  • Other, please explain

    Votes: 5 8.5%
  • Total voters
    59
Can you imagine killing your child because he was about to kill you? :shock:
 
Catz Part Deux said:
This is a kid living in a rural area. I have a few questions. For instance, how did he get access to a loaded shotgun? What was the family relationship with his dad/stepmom? Does he have a history of mental illness. When you see something like this, it's almost always related to something traumatic. For instance, did the kid feel like he was going to be replaced by his dad's new baby? Was there a history of violence in the home? Was the stepmom abusive?

All of these things play a role in why a kid might do something unthinkable. But, if you look at all the facts, there is usually something there that makes sense in a twisted kind of way.
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Nothing had to happen. As a stepmom myself, I can tell you that we are not favorite people a lot of the time. As as a stepkid, I hated my stepdad, for pretty much no reason from what I can tell now (obviously I have a much better relationship with presently). Step parents are often villified by kids. Sometimes deservingly, but often not.

Kids today suck. I have no sympathy for this little monster and I am very sceptical that something horrible happened in his past that hasn't come out yet. He's just a typical American kid, raised on cheetoes, violent video games and not enough boundries.
 
Kelzie said:
Nothing had to happen. As a stepmom myself, I can tell you that we are not favorite people a lot of the time. As as a stepkid, I hated my stepdad, for pretty much no reason from what I can tell now (obviously I have a much better relationship with presently). Step parents are often villified by kids. Sometimes deservingly, but often not.

Kids today suck. I have no sympathy for this little monster and I am very sceptical that something horrible happened in his past that hasn't come out yet. He's just a typical American kid, raised on cheetoes, violent video games and not enough boundries.
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:shock: Ummm, Kelzie...why do you sound like gunny?
 
Kelzie said:
Kids today suck. I have no sympathy for this little monster and I am very sceptical that something horrible happened in his past that hasn't come out yet. He's just a typical American kid, raised on cheetoes, violent video games and not enough boundries.
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And yet, amazingly enough, most kids manage NOT to kill their stepparents. I'm not saying that the stepmom did anything, though I've certainly seen cases in which they have. It could be that the child (and this is still a child) is mentally ill.

I've seen for myself that fractured families cause damage that you don't see on the surface. My daughter is dealing with major abandonment issues due to her dad that most people who don't know her well would have no idea about. ON the surface she seems like the perfect child...good grades, highly motivated, avoids drugs & alcohol, extremely caring and sweet. She has panic attacks at times and can lash out unpredictably towards the people who love her. She's been in therapy for three months now, and I'm just starting to see how deep it goes. It sucks.
 
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Catz Part Deux said:
And yet, amazingly enough, most kids manage NOT to kill their stepparents. I'm not saying that the stepmom did anything, though I've certainly seen cases in which they have. It could be that the child (and this is still a child) is mentally ill.

I've seen for myself that fractured families cause damage that you don't see on the surface.
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Every murderer has a sob story and they all have a reason for why they did it. This "child" is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong and to understand the consequences of killing someone. That's all the info I need to know that he should be treated like an adult.
 
Kelzie said:
Every murderer has a sob story and they all have a reason for why they did it. This "child" is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong and to understand the consequences of killing someone. That's all the info I need to know that he should be treated like an adult.
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If this is the case, do you also support removing the age of consent for sex? Based upon an 11-year-old knowing right from wrong, can a 30-year-old have sex with an 11-year-old? Should 11 year olds start driving? Can we allow 11-year-olds to drink? Serve in the military? Vote?
 
Catz Part Deux said:
If this is the case, do you also support removing the age of consent for sex? Based upon an 11-year-old knowing right from wrong, can a 30-year-old have sex with an 11-year-old? Should 11 year olds start driving? Can we allow 11-year-olds to drink? Serve in the military? Vote?
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God love the slippery slope.

An 11 year-old knows the consequences of murder. They do not know the consequences of sex to the degree that they can make an informed opinion. They are not physically capable of serving in the military or reaching the gas pedals. Alcohol is also harmful to developing minds to the degree that our govenment regulates it, like it regulates all dangerous substances.
 
Kelzie said:
God love the slippery slope.

An 11 year-old knows the consequences of murder. They do not know the consequences of sex to the degree that they can make an informed opinion. They are not physically capable of serving in the military or reaching the gas pedals. Alcohol is also harmful to developing minds to the degree that our govenment regulates it, like it regulates all dangerous substances.
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You don't think there is a certain blur between fantasy like, say tv and video games, and the realistic permanence of murder in a kid's mind?
 
Kelzie said:
God love the slippery slope.
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It's not a slippery slope. It is an extension of your own argument, that 11 year olds are culpable because they know right from wrong. I'm asking you to test the internal integrity of your argument.

They do not know the consequences of sex to the degree that they can make an informed opinion.
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Why?

They are not physically capable of serving in the military or reaching the gas pedals.
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Plenty of short people drive cars and serve in the military.

Alcohol is also harmful to developing minds to the degree that our govenment regulates it, like it regulates all dangerous substances.
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Wait. I thought an 11-year-old's mind was fully developed...
 
jallman said:
You don't think there is a certain blur between fantasy like, say tv and video games, and the realistic permanence of murder in a kid's mind?
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No. I mean, maybe if you're three, but unless he's mentally handicapped, a sixth grader knows the difference between killing someone on a video game and killing someone in real life. They also know that death is forever and murderers go to jail. Further, every sixth grader I've dealt with was of sufficient awareness to understand that kids aren't punished as hard as adults when they commit crimes. Given all that and the severity of the crime, there's no reason to pretend he didn't know what he was doing.
 
Kelzie said:
No. I mean, maybe if you're three, but unless he's mentally handicapped, a sixth grader knows the difference between killing someone on a video game and killing someone in real life. They also know that death is forever and murderers go to jail. Further, every sixth grader I've dealt with was of sufficient awareness to understand that kids aren't punished as hard as adults when they commit crimes. Given all that and the severity of the crime, there's no reason to pretend he didn't know what he was doing.
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I just hold the belief that in order for a kid to do something like this, the parent had to have failed somewhere.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
It's not a slippery slope. It is an extension of your own argument, that 11 year olds are culpable because they know right from wrong. I'm asking you to test the internal integrity of your argument.


Why?


Plenty of short people drive cars and serve in the military.
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I am 100% certain you are using a slippery slope argument. Do you need a link? I am also not very interested in playing the slippery slope game. I'd really like to focus on the current issues instead of creating ridiculous what if scenarios to waste time. But if you insist, you can open a thread to discuss each of these instances and we can debate the logic of allowing 11 year-olds to serve in the military.


Catz Part Deux said:
Wait. I thought an 11-year-old's mind was fully developed...
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Who said that? Certainly not I. Neither is an 18 year-olds. I guess now you don't want to try them as adults either?
 
jallman said:
I just hold the belief that in order for a kid to do something like this, the parent had to have failed somewhere.
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I am in complete agreeance. Unfortunately, bad parenting isn't a crime. Plus, I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of inmates also have failed parents. Ultimately though, people are responsible for their own actions. Even kids.
 
Kelzie said:
I am in complete agreeance. Unfortunately, bad parenting isn't a crime. Plus, I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of inmates also have failed parents. Ultimately though, people are responsible for their own actions. Even kids.
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No, bad parenting isn't a crime but it is a factor that mitigates the culpability of the child in criminal matters. And that is as it should be.
 
Kelzie said:
No. I mean, maybe if you're three, but unless he's mentally handicapped, a sixth grader knows the difference between killing someone on a video game and killing someone in real life.
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Actually, they don't.

Following each narrative, children were asked to judge whether various bodily and mental processes continue to function after death, and to justify their judgment. Although children often claimed that functioning ceases at death and offered appropriate biological justifications for that judgment, they also claimed that functioning continues after death and offered appropriate religious justifications. The tendency to invoke an afterlife was more frequent among older children than younger children, more frequent in the context of the religious narrative as opposed to the secular narrative and more frequent with respect to mental processes than bodily processes. Particularly among older children, two distinct conceptions of death appear to co-exist: a biological conception in which death implies the cessation of living processes and a metaphysical conception in which death marks the beginning of the afterlife.
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Given all that and the severity of the crime, there's no reason to pretend he didn't know what he was doing.
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He probably knew very well that he wanted her and the baby to go away, perhaps permanently. But children's understanding of the permanency of death, and the future, is very different from ours. They can "understand" things, but they understand it differently than we do. The brain develops a great deal between 14 and 18.

The Understanding of Death
 
Kelzie said:
I am 100% certain you are using a slippery slope argument.
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I'm sure that you wish I were, because you cannot answer the question. Why is an 11-year-old competent to make decisions about death, but not competent to make decisions about sex, using alcohol, or driving a vehicle?

I'm asking you to explain how you can believe they are competent in one situation, but not in other, related situations. I'm asking you to be logically consistent. But I don't think you can be, in this situation.
 
jallman said:
No, bad parenting isn't a crime but it is a factor that mitigates the culpability of the child in criminal matters. And that is as it should be.
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It certainly doesn't mitigate adult criminals. Possibly it is considered in the sentencing, but no one, adult or child is any less guilty cause their parents suck.

A extremely brief google search gave my the following criteria to be declared competent to stand trial:

*understand his present charges,
*understand his overall legal situation,
*understand the roles of courtroom personnel
*distinguish between various pleas
*understand the range of possible verdicts

Most sixth graders understand all of the above. If it's found out that he doesn't, then he should be charged as a child.
 
I don't think children or for that sake teenagers can be held to the same standards of responsibility as adults. Thus they should not be tried as adults.

However something needs to be done if a child is heading down a destructive path. The social authorities needs to step in and help the child to develop in a healthier way.

I would favour a system of special youth courts rather than the social authorities to determine what has to be done. A trial is also meant to be a form of protection and also a child can be accused of something he did not do. These youth courts should work in a way that seems unintimidating to the child and try to find out what the best thing to do for the child would be. In order to do this properly the youth courts should engage the people around the child like family, friends and teachers in the process.
 
jallman said:
No, bad parenting isn't a crime but it is a factor that mitigates the culpability of the child in criminal matters. And that is as it should be.
Click to expand...

It certainly doesn't mitigate adult criminals. Possibly it is considered in the sentencing, but no one, adult or child is any less guilty cause their parents suck.

A extremely brief google search gave me the following criteria to be declared competent to stand trial:

*understand his present charges,
*understand his overall legal situation,
*understand the roles of courtroom personnel
*distinguish between various pleas
*understand the range of possible verdicts

Most sixth graders understand all of the above. If it's found out that he doesn't, then he should be charged as a child.
 
Kelzie said:
It certainly doesn't mitigate adult criminals. Possibly it is considered in the sentencing, but no one, adult or child is any less guilty cause their parents suck.

A extremely brief google search gave me the following criteria to be declared competent to stand trial:

*understand his present charges,
*understand his overall legal situation,
*understand the roles of courtroom personnel
*distinguish between various pleas
*understand the range of possible verdicts

Most sixth graders understand all of the above. If it's found out that he doesn't, then he should be charged as a child.
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So a child is the same thing as an insane person?
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Actually, they don't.





He probably knew very well that he wanted her and the baby to go away, perhaps permanently. But children's understanding of the permanency of death, and the future, is very different from ours. They can "understand" things, but they understand it differently than we do. The brain develops a great deal between 14 and 18.

The Understanding of Death
Click to expand...

I don't understand what part of that quote you were intending on using to support your argument...

Particularly among older children, two distinct conceptions of death appear to co-exist: a biological conception in which death implies the cessation of living processes and a metaphysical conception in which death marks the beginning of the afterlife.
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That's pretty much what death is. What exactly are you basing your assertation that 12 year-olds don't understand death on? It appears the article disagrees with you, regardless.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
I'm sure that you wish I were, because you cannot answer the question. Why is an 11-year-old competent to make decisions about death, but not competent to make decisions about sex, using alcohol, or driving a vehicle?

I'm asking you to explain how you can believe they are competent in one situation, but not in other, related situations. I'm asking you to be logically consistent. But I don't think you can be, in this situation.
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How is it not slippery slope? You know what it is, right? Stating that if you allow one thing, you have to allow others is a slippery slope fallacy.

How is the decision to take someone's life in anyway connected to the ability to drive? Every single sixth grader I know could tell you that it is wrong to kill someone and you will be punished. These same sixth graders could not necessarily make the correct decision about sex. In one instance they know it's wrong and not to do it. In another they do not and must be protected until they can make their own decision.
 
misterman said:
So a child is the same thing as an insane person?
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If we're saying they're not competent enough to understand their actions, what's the difference?
 
Kelzie said:
If we're saying they're not competent enough to understand their actions, what's the difference?
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Understanding isn't the only factor in responsibility. An adult is automatically presumed to be responsible, if he isn't insane. A child may understand just fine but still not have the ability to control himself or make proper decisions.
 
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