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Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

Should an 11 year old ever be tried as an adult?

  • Yes, this particular young man is a perfect example

    Votes: 12 20.3%

  • No, never.

    Votes: 31 52.5%

  • The justice system needs another alternative for extremely young, potentially dangerous offenders

    Votes: 11 18.6%

  • Other, please explain

    Votes: 5 8.5%
  • Total voters
    59
emdash said:
the plot thickens?

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

He also discussed the issues of the nature of the crime and of premeditation: "The evidence presented by the commonwealth showed that the victim, Kenzie Marie Houk, 8 1/2 months pregnant, was in bed at the time she was murdered. She was totally defenseless at the time her life and the life of her unborn fetus was taken by a shotgun blast to the back of her head. There is no indication of any provocation by the victim that led to her killing."

...The judge said the evidence indicated that "the commission of the crime demonstrated a degree of criminal sophistication" on the part of the boy, and that the offense was "necessarily premeditated."
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Thank you, now I have some more data to chew on.

If he's been shrinkologically evaluated and found to have known right from wrong at the time of the crime; and given evidence of serious premeditation and sophisticated planning... well yeah, we might be looking at a justification for trial as an adult, or perhaps a lifetime committment order, depending on his mental state.
 
samsmart said:
While they need to be separated from society because of their potential to be a danger to others, they do not need to be punished because they have that inherent danger within them.

Rather, they need to be secured and properly socialized in a controlled setting so that, if they can, they can live with other in society and, if not, remained secured while still being productive.

I think that doing that would be less expensive than paying to put them in prison.
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I tend to think they need to be punished, though.
 
Partisan said:
No, your scenario is an accident, he never intended to hurt anyone....;)
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Breaking and Entering is a felony in most jurisdictions, if I recall rightly.

If you do something that results in an unjustified death, during the commission of a felony, you may be sentenced to death in many states even it wasn't actually murder.

So, the point stands: it is a scenario that could actually play out that way, at least if the subject were an adult or tried as an adult.
 
Goshin said:
Thank you, now I have some more data to chew on.

If he's been shrinkologically evaluated and found to have known right from wrong at the time of the crime; and given evidence of serious premeditation and sophisticated planning... well yeah, we might be looking at a justification for trial as an adult, or perhaps a lifetime committment order, depending on his mental state.
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It is pretty interesting. Other sources say he hid the gun in a blanket when he took it into the pregnant lady's bedroom.

Anyhow it's not a simple crime of passion or an accident so I can see why he's being tried as an adult. The witness--pregnant lady's 7 year old daughter--is not the most reliable, so he might get off without a conviction.

Edit: not a witness to the actual event, but a witness to him carrying a shotgun-shaped blanket through the house and later discarding the shells in the yard
 
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emdash said:
I tend to think they need to be punished, though.
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Punishment without treating the behaviors that cause that punishment does not end the behaviors that lead to punishment.
 
samsmart said:
Punishment without treating the behaviors that cause that punishment does not end the behaviors that lead to punishment.
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Unless the behavior that caused it is untreatable, or it is because of complete ignorance to social standards.
 
samsmart said:
Punishment without treating the behaviors that cause that punishment does not end the behaviors that lead to punishment.
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Punishment (imprisonment) would end the behavior (shooting people in the back of the head while they're asleep) that led to the punishment (imprisonment).
 
Our system is based on so much hypocrisy.

We don't let children under 18 view "adult films" or smoke cigarettes because he believe their minds are not mature enough to handle it.

Hell, we don't even let "adults" drink alcohol or gamble under they hit the age of 21 for the same reasons.

Yet...he believe that children as young as 11 should be treated the same as adults in the criminal justice system.

Where is the logic in that?
 
disneydude said:
Our system is based on so much hypocrisy.

We don't let children under 18 view "adult films" or smoke cigarettes because he believe their minds are not mature enough to handle it.

Hell, we don't even let "adults" drink alcohol or gamble under they hit the age of 21 for the same reasons.

Yet...he believe that children as young as 11 should be treated the same as adults in the criminal justice system.

Where is the logic in that?
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So, what is your solution? This boy is likely a sociopath with a great potential for future destructive acts.

Putting this type into the juvenile justice system will only turn him into a hardened criminal. Youth Authority Prisons are very rough places with gangs based on racial groupings, and violence. Then, these young people are released in their early 20s at an age when they are most likely to wreck havoc on society.
 
emdash said:
Punishment (imprisonment) would end the behavior (shooting people in the back of the head while they're asleep) that led to the punishment (imprisonment).
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No it wouldn't. All it would tell him is that if he shoots someone again then he'll just get imprisoned again.

And this is when you tell me, "Well, that's why we put murderers to death for killing other people so they won't pursue that behavior again and kill again."

To which I will retort, "That may be the case, but 1) if we treated him properly for the first murder he likely would not have done the second and 2) your solution doesn't work for less severe crimes, such as professional burglary. If all we do is punish burglars for stealing things then all they'll do is steal things with the expectation of getting imprisoned. However, if we find the root cause of why they steal, which is likely because they are uneducated, unskilled, or feel they don't have any promising job opportunities, treat that, help them get educated, help them get job skills, and offer them fair and gainful employment then we take away their reasoning for further pursuing future criminal behavior."
 
MyOwnDrum said:
So, what is your solution? This boy is likely a sociopath with a great potential for future destructive acts.

Putting this type into the juvenile justice system will only turn him into a hardened criminal. Youth Authority Prisons are very rough places with gangs based on racial groupings, and violence. Then, these young people are released in their early 20s at an age when they are most likely to wreck havoc on society.
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My solution is that he should get severe psychological treatment to see if he can be socialized to be a productive and non-harmful member of society. If he can't be, then he should be secured in a place that is far less violent that prisons are.
 
disneydude said:
Our system is based on so much hypocrisy.

We don't let children under 18 view "adult films" or smoke cigarettes because he believe their minds are not mature enough to handle it.

Hell, we don't even let "adults" drink alcohol or gamble under they hit the age of 21 for the same reasons.

Yet...he believe that children as young as 11 should be treated the same as adults in the criminal justice system.

Where is the logic in that?
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For some people, especially preteen kids who premeditate the murder of their mother, there is no hope in redemeption, because the individual sees nothing wrong with their actions, or enjoyed it, or something similar. In those cases, we, as a society, have no choice but to imprison said individual, and in some cases, kill them.
 
samsmart said:
My solution is that he should get severe psychological treatment to see if he can be socialized to be a productive and non-harmful member of society. If he can't be, then he should be secured in a place that is far less violent that prisons are.
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Or a few life sentences, so he doesn't get out. I imagine that it would cost less then a psychological center attempting to make this kid a productive member of society.
 
repeter said:
Or a few life sentences, so he doesn't get out. I imagine that it would cost less then a psychological center attempting to make this kid a productive member of society.
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Having a justice system where we quickly decide cases without much time for deliberating on those cases would speed up the trial process and thus cost less. That doesn't make it right or fair either.

And, in the long run, depending on how it's done, it may wind up being cheaper.
 
samsmart said:
Having a justice system where we quickly decide cases without much time for deliberating on those cases would speed up the trial process and thus cost less. That doesn't make it right or fair either.

And, in the long run, depending on how it's done, it may wind up being cheaper.
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That is true. But thankfully, we can achieve a decision that is fair, just, and relatively inexpensive when you have premeditated murder committed by a minor.
 
repeter said:
That is true. But thankfully, we can achieve a decision that is fair, just, and relatively inexpensive when you have premeditated murder committed by a minor.
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How can you have a fair, just, and relatively inexpensive decision when you've already sentenced this kid for premeditated murder without a trial?
 
samsmart said:
How can you have a fair, just, and relatively inexpensive decision when you've already sentenced this kid for premeditated murder without a trial?
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I'm a layman, and I'm not on a jury, so I can afford to be an arm-chair judge/attorney. When the kid's trial comes around, then I personally expect an adult sentence on him, but that's just me. In any case, this kid killed his mother, and his future brother/sister with premeditated murder.
 
Treating an 11 year old as an adult is the result of a system bent on punishment and little else.
 
He should be tried as an adult as soon as he gains the right to vote, drink, or join the army.
 
repeter said:
I'm a layman, and I'm not on a jury, so I can afford to be an arm-chair judge/attorney. When the kid's trial comes around, then I personally expect an adult sentence on him, but that's just me. In any case, this kid killed his mother, and his future brother/sister with premeditated murder.
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I'm a layman too, I admit. However, I want to see more facts surrounding this case and find out exactly what is going on with this kid to make him kill his pregnant mother. I'm not condoning what the kid did or explaining it away. Rather, I want to first see if this kid can be helped first and, if he can, make sure he gets it before tossing him to the garbage heap.
 
His parents, if any, should be punished as adults.
When I was around that age, I could have done the same as that boy. I remember a gun lieing about - for me to play with..
He and I could have been born with anger management problems - as a guess, or they could be environmentally developed.
This is a reflection on the parents...Safeguards were not taken, and the child may have been disturbed..
 
MyOwnDrum said:
Here's the case: FOXNews.com - Adult Trial for Boy in Death of Pa. Woman, Fetus

They are trying this boy as an adult. If you go to the article, you'll see a photo of the boy.

An 11 year old is very young. At 11 most kids haven't even started puberty. How can a child that young be considered an adult? Is this kid any more unreformable than many young thugs? What he allegedly did was horrible, but he is not anywhere near adulthood.
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No, I'm with Ikari on this one. We have a differentiation in how minors are treated versus how adults are treated for a reason. Actually, several reasons.

  • There is an expectation that the adults in the child's life are more responsible for the child's behavior than the child, itself is responsible for.
  • There is an expectation that children are not mature enough to understand the far reaching ramifications of their actions.
  • Even when a child knows right from wrong, there is still an understanding that they have no concept of varying degrees of right and wrong, especially over crimes that result in permanent injury.
  • Which leads me to the next point; a child does not understand permanence.
  • A child has a certain blurred line between reality and make believe. Yes, even at 11 years old.
  • The brain of a child is not developed in areas that govern impulse and emotion control.
  • The law doesn't grant certain rights and privileges to children because children cannot handle those rights responsibly, which is exactly why they are treated differently when they are responsible for a crime.

There's no reason to treat a child like an adult in the criminal court system just because your emotional response is to abhor the crime due to its severity.
 
samsmart said:
My solution is that he should get severe psychological treatment to see if he can be socialized to be a productive and non-harmful member of society. If he can't be, then he should be secured in a place that is far less violent that prisons are.
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This seems reasonable.
 
While I'm glad to see everyone accepting the premise that the death of a fetus is a crime, I'm left wondering why the father hasn't been charged for leaving his shot gun accessible to a minor.
 
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