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Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous grounds

Should B&B owners be allowed to refuse gay couples?

  • Yes, they should be allowed to refuse anyone for any reason

    Votes: 48 59.3%

  • The should be allowed to refuse if it violates their religious beliefs

    Votes: 2 2.5%

  • They should be fined for discriminating against gays

    Votes: 11 13.6%

  • They should lose their B&B license for discriminating against gays

    Votes: 14 17.3%

  • Other, please explain

    Votes: 6 7.4%
  • Total voters
    81
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

rivrrat said:
No, your "what if" and "this MIGHT happen" statements aren't much of an argument for infringing on the rights of business owners. Hell, even your suggestion that business owners just give them shoddy service violates your "what if" and "this might happen" slippery slopes. Giving them shoddy service could hurt their feelings too, and then piss off the people they tell about it and result in someone throwing a brick through their window. So, we can't allow a business to give shoddy service to someone. I mean, just think of what MIGHT happen if they did.
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Nope! I believe you are intentionally missing the point (hopefully). By disallowing someone the ability to run their business in a bigoted manner, you are not.... I repeat.... you are not impeding their ability to run their business according to the central theme of market orientated entrepreneurship.

It is to max profits. Not to be a bigot if i so chose. You can do that on your own watch if that's what makes you tick.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Ikari said:
I mean, people can keep saying this and I'll keep responding the same way. This thread isn't about the law, it's asked should they be able to.
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And the only reply i have been given (except for LMR) is that firms should deny services because..... drum roll please..... They want to:roll:

Not being able to operate your business in a bigoted manner does not impede your ability to operate your business. Remember Ikari, the premise behind starting a business is profit. Letting your freak flag fly means jack **** in this regard.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Goldenboy219 said:
You argue as though one cannot have property rights without the right to be a bigot. I however do not view the two to be mutually exclusive. Logically, what are reasons not to serve a person(s) when you have a business?
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Point a) If one aspect of your business can be regulated arbitrarily for reasoning other than what is absolutely necessary and proper, then all of them can. b) There is no logical reason to bring bigotry into a business, I have conceded that throughout, however I don't believe in protecting people from themselves. If someone wants to do something ill advised to make a stand for a long dead concept I would advise against it, but still respect their rights to be an idiot.

1.) They do not have the means to pay
2.) By serving them, you are losing out on other more profitable clients
3.) Their presence is disrupting your atmosphere
4.) They are competitors looking to steal your plan/model/idea.
5.) You are liable for the actions they take during or remotely after
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All good reasons, but be careful with (3) bigots are creative when it comes to their prejudices, including how to apply them to any ambiguity in an argument. They may equate their hatred to the "atmosphere".

Are you saying that it is logically acceptable to deny service based on sexuality so that government does not intervene in your ability to conduct business in the manner(s) listed above? If so, good luck making that case.
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I'm not equating the two in any way.



Except if you happen to agree with it;)
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I don't want to empower government period. My concepts are based on my principles, even though bigots make me sick I fully defend their rights to be non-inclusionary and stupid, it's not agreement, it's principle.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

disneydude said:
Its quite simple. The Constitution talks about rights given to individuals, not businesses or corporations (but then again...certain activists on the Supreme Court want to believe that corporations are people)...
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The bolded part shows you aren't ready for a constitutional debate. Businesses are owned by people, guess you've never heard of a sole proprietership. Corporations are owned by a large group of people.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Goldenboy219 said:
And the only reply i have been given (except for LMR) is that firms should deny services because..... drum roll please..... They want to:roll:
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Because that's precisely the answer. It's their business, if they want to refuse service to anyone they wish for whatever reason they wish; they should be free to do so. It's their business.

Goldenboy219 said:
Not being able to operate your business in a bigoted manner does not impede your ability to operate your business. Remember Ikari, the premise behind starting a business is profit.
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I don't care how well their company does. Yes, behind business is profit which is why given the choice most companies wouldn't discriminate in that manner anyway. And the ones that do will not do as well. And if you invoke enough consumer response so they boycott a company with bad business practices such as excluding gays or blacks; the company goes away. Or changes their business model to recapture customers. Problem solved.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Goldenboy219 said:
And the only reply i have been given (except for LMR) is that firms should deny services because..... drum roll please..... They want to:roll:

Not being able to operate your business in a bigoted manner does not impede your ability to operate your business. Remember Ikari, the premise behind starting a business is profit. Letting your freak flag fly means jack **** in this regard.
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Should businesses be allowed to demand that citizens who carry fireamrs legally be denied access to their places of business?
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

VanceMack said:
Should businesses be allowed to demand that citizens who carry fireamrs legally be denied access to their places of business?
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Not comparable. Businesses can put restrictions on their guests in many ways, so long as they are not discriminatory. A theater can say you can't bring in outside food, and a nightclub can keep you out if you're dressed like a farmer, for instance.

You choose whether to bring your weapon; you don't choose whether to be gay or straight or black or white or handicapped or foreign.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Groucho said:
Not comparable. Businesses can put restrictions on their guests in many ways, so long as they are not discriminatory. A theater can say you can't bring in outside food, and a nightclub can keep you out if you're dressed like a farmer, for instance.

You choose whether to bring your weapon; you don't choose whether to be gay or straight or black or white or handicapped or foreign.
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I totally understand. Denying access to a consumer based on them practicing a constitutional right...OK...based on sexual choice? not OK!!!
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

VanceMack said:
I totally understand. Denying access to a consumer based on them practicing a constitutional right...OK...based on sexual choice? not OK!!!
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Ah, why didn't you tell me you were one of those who denied science and pretends people don't choose their sexual orientation? That changes everything.

I have a constitutional right to be naked too, but not in a store.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Goldenboy219 said:
Nope! I believe you are intentionally missing the point (hopefully). By disallowing someone the ability to run their business in a bigoted manner, you are not.... I repeat.... you are not impeding their ability to run their business according to the central theme of market orientated entrepreneurship.

It is to max profits. Not to be a bigot if i so chose. You can do that on your own watch if that's what makes you tick.
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It's a violation of their property rights.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Groucho said:
I have a constitutional right to be naked too, but not in a store.
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Well there's no constitutional right to that, but going from there you certainly can't do so in a store because you're on someone's property.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Ikari said:
Well there's no constitutional right to that, but going from there you certainly can't do so in a store because you're on someone's property.
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Sure there is. You have a right to be naked, just not anywhere you please. (there may not be an amendment saying "the right to be naked" but any law that would allow you to be arrested in your home for being so -- or in a nudist colony -- would be unconstitutional, right?

I'll use a better example.

You have a constitutional right to practice your religion. You do NOT have a right to do it anywhere you damn well please. You cannot come into my store and start singing a hymn or passing out Bibles or trying to convert my customers.

I can set standards for my store so long as they are not discriminatory.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Groucho said:
Sure there is. You have a right to be naked, just not anywhere you please. (there may not be an amendment saying "the right to be naked" but any law that would allow you to be arrested in your home for being so -- or in a nudist colony -- would be unconstitutional, right?

I'll use a better example.

You have a constitutional right to practice your religion. You do NOT have a right to do it anywhere you damn well please. You cannot come into my store and start singing a hymn or passing out Bibles or trying to convert my customers.

I can set standards for my store so long as they are not discriminatory.
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Well by "constitutional right" that would mean one of the rights outlined in the Constitution. Which being naked is not one of them. Regardless, I don't care if your standards are discriminatory; your store your rules. If you don't want Christians in your store, then you should be free to kick their zombie worshiping butts out of your store.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Ikari said:
Well by "constitutional right" that would mean one of the rights outlined in the Constitution. Which being naked is not one of them. Regardless, I don't care if your standards are discriminatory; your store your rules. If you don't want Christians in your store, then you should be free to kick their zombie worshiping butts out of your store.
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Well, fortunately, your views are not the law of the land. :)

I am glad we no longer have stores with signs saying "No Irish" or businesses that refuse to serve blacks or Jews or whatever. And much of that would have never happened without laws.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Groucho said:
Well, fortunately, your views are not the law of the land. :)

I am glad we no longer have stores with signs saying "No Irish" or businesses that refuse to serve blacks or Jews or whatever. And much of that would have never happened without laws.
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Why? You think that couldn't be brought about through proper consumer pressure? Or is it that you just don't want to do the work to create your Equalia, so you'll use government force on people to make it so?
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

VanceMack said:
I totally understand. Denying access to a consumer based on them practicing a constitutional right...OK...based on sexual choice? not OK!!!
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Why are y'all talking about constitutional rights? This thread is about something happening in the UK - no written constitution exists. You can't take anyone to court for violating constitutional rights, just for breaking the law. The law is clear. The owners broke it. They can campaign to change the law but they must face the consequences of breaking it until it's changed. You can't conduct this debate by resorting to constitutional rights.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Ikari said:
Why? You think that couldn't be brought about through proper consumer pressure? Or is it that you just don't want to do the work to create your Equalia, so you'll use government force on people to make it so?
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Damn right it wouldn't have happened without pressure, campaigning, civil disobedience and law change. If it could have done, it would have done. It didn't without intervention. Even Adam Smith didn't claim the invisible hand would deliver justice.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Ikari said:
Why? You think that couldn't be brought about through proper consumer pressure?
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Yes, that's right, based on history. The majority often oppresses the rights of the minority. Wishing that black people would be treated fairly only took 100 years after the Civil War -- until laws were written (and more importantly, enforced).

Ikari said:
Or is it that you just don't want to do the work to create your Equalia, so you'll use government force on people to make it so?
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Strange how people who bitch about "government control" have no problem with control from everyone else. Personally, I think it's a good idea to have laws to prevent the powerful from destroying the very ideals this country is based on.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Groucho said:
Yes, that's right, based on history. The majority often oppresses the rights of the minority. Wishing that black people would be treated fairly only took 100 years after the Civil War -- until laws were written (and more importantly, enforced).
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A lot of that was legal context within the government, some of which is proper. But then to extend it to private property goes a bit too far.

Groucho said:
Strange how people who bitch about "government control" have no problem with control from everyone else. Personally, I think it's a good idea to have laws to prevent the powerful from destroying the very ideals this country is based on.
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HAHAHAHAHA, the powerful have already destroyed many of the very ideals this country was based on.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Ikari said:
HAHAHAHAHA, the powerful have already destroyed many of the very ideals this country was based on.
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Um, yes, that's my point.

You libertarians seem to have some misguided view that if we just leave the powerful alone then they will be nice to us and no bad will ever happen.

I think that a society should do something to prevent that from happening.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Ikari said:
Well by "constitutional right" that would mean one of the rights outlined in the Constitution. Which being naked is not one of them. Regardless, I don't care if your standards are discriminatory; your store your rules. If you don't want Christians in your store, then you should be free to kick their zombie worshiping butts out of your store.
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Hey man, I'm Catholic and on your side. I even agree that a private business has the right to deny me service because of my beliefs, let's just not make it personal please. Just sayin'.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Groucho said:
Um, yes, that's my point.

You libertarians seem to have some misguided view that if we just leave the powerful alone then they will be nice to us and no bad will ever happen.

I think that a society should do something to prevent that from happening.
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Wrong, you advocate that government should do something, libertarians and constitutionalists assert that society should do something. And I know, you want to argue that the two are the same......they are not, government has stopped representing the people years ago, so far we have accepted it, but government is most certainly not the people, although through process it's still technically "of the people" sort of.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Groucho said:
Um, yes, that's my point.

You libertarians seem to have some misguided view that if we just leave the powerful alone then they will be nice to us and no bad will ever happen.

I think that a society should do something to prevent that from happening.
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Nothing in this thread is an affirmation of your claim here.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

LaMidRighter said:
Hey man, I'm Catholic and on your side. I even agree that a private business has the right to deny me service because of my beliefs, let's just not make it personal please. Just sayin'.
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pssst....it's a joke.
 
Re: Should a Bed and Breakfast Owner be allowed to refuse Gay couples on religous gro

Ikari said:
pssst....it's a joke.
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I get that, just wanted to make sure.
 
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