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Is it possible to overthrow the US government

Is it possible?

  • Total voters
    39
Redress said:
Not exactly. The whole logistic problem the British had would not be the case in this, and the military is much better armed compared to the populace than the british where to the Americans.
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Actually I've addressed that. If it ever actually got so bad that armed rebellion was our only recourse to preserve liberty, I'd be surprised if much less than half of the military didn't refuse the orders or actively side with the rebels.

Admittedly, I base this on knowing lots of current and former servicemen, rather than some sourceable study sponsored by Harvard. :mrgreen:
 
Coronado said:
Nah, those are all just a bunch of stupid rednecks. You can tell because they're in the military and have those big, scary guns. [/sarcasm]
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That's actually my squad in Karma Iraq. Many of the people in that picture are civilians now.
 
So, if there were a zombie apocalypse, how many of those 5 million people could be mobilized quickly enough to quell the flesh eaters?
 
Redress said:
That has been the case with all the rest of the presidents assassinated...
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But those were all the result of isolated incidents, not asymmetric warfare.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
So, if there were a zombie apocalypse, how many of those 5 million people could be mobilized quickly enough to quell the flesh eaters?
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Actually studies show that most would desert during a major disaster/epoxyclips, and go home to protect their families.

1/3 would desert on Day 1.
 
Goshin said:
Yup. Basically, our 5 million military-and-police combo might be able to field 500,000 actual fighters (combat arms, SWAT, etc) at the most optimistic... and maybe another million or so half-arse combatants.

If 10% of American gun owners rebelled, that would be 9 million people. Statistically at least a quarter of those would be veterans.

Not looking so good for the forces of Big Government now, is it? :mrgreen:

Now... most of my buddies are current or former Military, or ex-cops. The question comes up sometimes: "what are you going to go if the government orders you to act against the Constitutional rights of American citizens?" Almost everyone I know says "Refuse the orders".
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I suspect most of them throughout the country would say the same thing. Whether they signed up out of patriotism or simply a desire to pound some ***** on all seven continents, one thing they all seem to understand is that they are there to protect the Constitution, not trample on it.
Goshin said:
Granted, it would take a lot to stir up that kind of rebellion... if cable TV went off the air, and Beer were no longer available in the stores and bars, and the government could be made to bear the blame, that would do it. :mrgreen:
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If the government cuts off the beer supply I'll be the first martyr (after I drink up whatever I have left, not that it would have anything to do with my martyrdom).
 
Goshin said:
Actually studies show that most would desert during a major disaster/epoxyclips, and go home to protect their families.

1/3 would desert on Day 1.
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Well, we would be royally buggered then, wouldn't we? THis just reminds me that I need to stock up on ammo.
 
Redress said:
Holy intellectual dishonesty...
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Well, that seems to be the message I'm getting from certain people. Never said it was you or anything, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to accuse me of being intellectually dishonest. Hazlnut, in his infinite wisdom, seems to think an asymmetric campaign would consist of a Specter gunship mowing down fat rednecks...
 
Goshin said:
Actually I've addressed that. If it ever actually got so bad that armed rebellion was our only recourse to preserve liberty, I'd be surprised if much less than half of the military didn't refuse the orders or actively side with the rebels.

Admittedly, I base this on knowing lots of current and former servicemen, rather than some sourceable study sponsored by Harvard. :mrgreen:
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First, try and remember Goshin that I am a vet before you go throwing out those random insults.

Secondly, you have not addressed the logistic problem that the British had that would not be the case here.

Third, if things got bad enough that half the military revolted, there would be no need for a revolt.
 
Ethereal said:
That's actually my squad in Karma Iraq. Many of the people in that picture are civilians now.
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From the looks of the wall behind you I'd say they were right about Karma being a bitch.

Let me guess, you're the guy on the right with the ****-eatin' grin?
 
Ethereal said:
But those were all the result of isolated incidents, not asymmetric warfare.
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We have never given in to terrorism before, I don't see that changing. There is no evidence it would. Sorry, but we are not a country of cowards.
 
Goshin said:
Yup. Basically, our 5 million military-and-police combo might be able to field 500,000 actual fighters (combat arms, SWAT, etc) at the most optimistic... and maybe another million or so half-arse combatants.

If 10% of American gun owners rebelled, that would be 9 million people. Statistically at least a quarter of those would be veterans.

Not looking so good for the forces of Big Government now, is it? :mrgreen:

Now... most of my buddies are current or former Military, or ex-cops. The question comes up sometimes: "what are you going to go if the government orders you to act against the Constitutional rights of American citizens?" Almost everyone I know says "Refuse the orders".

Granted, it would take a lot to stir up that kind of rebellion... if cable TV went off the air, and Beer were no longer available in the stores and bars, and the government could be made to bear the blame, that would do it. :mrgreen:
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More than likely, nothing like that would happen.
That is why a successful insurgency is mostly psychology.

If anything started it would most likely be a smaller situation which I'm guaranteed the government already has a 'quarantine' protocol, to make sure nothing spreads.

Of course they would deny that it was some sort of rebellion and assert that it was a terrorist attack, gang violence, etc.
They want to make sure that no military or law enforcement would turn on them.

You have to also remember that police and military wouldn't necessarily do as they say they would.
They would weigh that against losing pay, their own freedom and possibly making their families destitute by doing so.
 
Ethereal said:
Well, that seems to be the message I'm getting from certain people. Never said it was you or anything, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to accuse me of being intellectually dishonest. Hazlnut, in his infinite wisdom, seems to think an asymmetric campaign would consist of a Specter gunship mowing down fat rednecks...
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No one has mentioned anything about banning guns in this thread that I saw, and you are the only one being insulting. Gunships in fact would be used, and I think you know that. He may not be entirely accurate, but he is not as far off as you have been.
 
Goshin said:
Actually studies show that most would desert during a major disaster/epoxyclips, and go home to protect their families.

1/3 would desert on Day 1.
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I think that was the case for Hurricanes Katrina and Rita. I really wouldn't think too much of a man who deserted his family to go to his job in the face of a disaster.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
More than likely, nothing like that would happen.
That is why a successful insurgency is mostly psychology.

If anything started it would most likely be a smaller situation which I'm guaranteed the government already has a 'quarantine' protocol, to make sure nothing spreads.

Of course they would deny that it was some sort of rebellion and assert that it was a terrorist attack, gang violence, etc.
They want to make sure that no military or law enforcement would turn on them.

You have to also remember that police and military wouldn't necessarily do as they say they would.
They would weigh that against losing pay, their own freedom and possibly making their families destitute by doing so.
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I think the LA riots are a perfect example of how things can get out of hand so quickly, the government cannot react fast enough to really do anything. Same with the situation during Katrina.

The Feds probably have all kinds of contingency plans. Unfortunately you can't just throw Federal troops into any state you want without approval.
 
Redress said:
First, try and remember Goshin that I am a vet before you go throwing out those random insults.

Secondly, you have not addressed the logistic problem that the British had that would not be the case here.

Third, if things got bad enough that half the military revolted, there would be no need for a revolt.
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Redress, if I said something you took as insulting, I assure you it was not intended as such.

How much of our military is stationed overseas at any given moment? Especially our combat arms troops? How hard would it be to move them all back home quickly?
 
Blackdog said:
I think the LA riots are a perfect example of how things can get out of hand so quickly, the government cannot react fast enough to really do anything. Same with the situation during Katrina.

The Feds probably have all kinds of contingency plans. Unfortunately you can't just throw Federal troops into any state you want without approval.
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There are "other" Federal troops that can go in immediately.

FBI, CIA people like that.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
There are "other" Federal troops that can go in immediately.

FBI, CIA people like that.
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Allot of good they did during the riots and Katrina? They are small and don't have anywhere near the man power to do anything. They are not military, they are relatively small Federal agency's tasked with specific jobs.
 
Blackdog said:
Allot of good they did during the riots and Katrina? They are small and don't have anywhere near the man power to do anything.
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They were very effective at quickly and decisively crushing the armed civilians at Ruby Ridge and Waco though.

Oh, wait a minute... no, they weren't actually. :mrgreen:
 
Goshin said:
Redress, if I said something you took as insulting, I assure you it was not intended as such.

How much of our military is stationed overseas at any given moment? Especially our combat arms troops? How hard would it be to move them all back home quickly?
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In this scenario? A pain, but doable in a fairly quick way. Ships can load and make the trip in under 2 weeks, C-5's can bring surprising amounts of people and equipment. Unless the rebels could interdict ports and airstrips, which would be hard for a rebel force since it would play to their weakness, it would be doable.
 
Blackdog said:
Allot of good they did during the riots and Katrina? They are small and don't have anywhere near the man power to do anything.
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Those are different scenarios thought, one was civil unrest that most likely wouldn't spread and the other was a natural disaster.

Something to note about Katrina was that Federal troops went door to door confiscating firearms.
 
Goshin said:
They were very effective at quickly and decisively crushing the armed civilians at Ruby Ridge and Waco though.

Oh, wait a minute... no, they weren't actually. :mrgreen:
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I think ATF did more than the others combined, lol.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Those are different scenarios thought, one was civil unrest that most likely wouldn't spread and the other was a natural disaster.

Something to note about Katrina was that Federal troops went door to door confiscating firearms.
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AFTER it was calmed down and with the military.

They are small agencys that do not have the man power, period.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
So, if there were a zombie apocalypse, how many of those 5 million people could be mobilized quickly enough to quell the flesh eaters?
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I used to fantasize about the zombie apocalypse when I was sitting behind a fifty cal or mark-19. Every grunt's wet dream...
 
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