Do you support an National ID?

Arcana XV · Mar 12, 2010

Harry Guerrilla said:
Don't take this the wrong way but your country is the size of one of our states.
It's more or less the equivalent to a state ID.

I don't see how size matters in any way. Switzerland may be small, but it's got 26 "states" that are sometimes as different as night and day and a federal government much like yours. It's the exact same thing on a smaller scale. :shrug:

Harry Guerrilla · Mar 12, 2010

Arcana XV said:
I don't see how size matters in any way. Switzerland may be small, but it's got 26 "states" that are sometimes as different as night and day and a federal government much like yours. It's the exact same thing on a smaller scale. :shrug:

Well most people in each state, stay in their respective state.
That's not to say they don't travel outside but in all they shop in live in their state.
Their state ID serves it purpose for that.

There is no reason for a Federal ID, I don't travel to various states regularly and even if I do my state ID is sufficient.
It's mostly the scale of implementation, which costs tons of money and it's unneeded.

The Feds want to put their hand in another cookie jar.

Arcana XV · Mar 12, 2010

Harry Guerrilla said:
Well most people in each state, state in their respective state.
That's not to say they travel outside but in all they shop in live in their state.
Their state ID serves it purpose for that.

There is no reason for a Federal ID, I don't travel to various states regularly and even if I do my state ID is sufficient.
It's mostly the scale of implementation, which costs tons of money and it's unneeded.

The Feds want to put their hand in another cookie jar.

We don't have state IDs, I suppose if we did and each state recognized other states IDs I wouldn't see the need for a federal ID either. You may have a point.

molten_dragon · Mar 12, 2010

No, I don't support the idea. I'm not afraid of the government having my biometric data or whatever, I just don't think that a national ID program would be effective at stopping the hiring of illegals and it would cause problems for businesses, so it seems wasteful to me.

PeteEU · Mar 12, 2010

jamesrage said:
A national ID hurts American workers while pretending to help them.

Coming from a country that has had a national ID system in place for 50 or so years, I can say it helps workers and employers big time.

First, every worker would have to ask permission from the federal government to get a job. American workers shouldn’t have to beg or plead to anybody to get permission to work. Being employed should be a private agreement between an employer and employee. Period. The government should get out of the way.

Well if it is specifically designed for that then sure, but if it is just an ID.. then :rofl no. The only reason I have ever given my ID to my employer was for tax purposes and bank verification details. Government never told me if I could work for a company or not lol.

Second, carrying around government papers with biometric identification on it conjures up images of a more technologically savvy Oceania or East Germany. No thanks.

Yes the classic fear mongering tactic. You carry a drivers license, does that conjure up the same fears?

Third, the system will exclude millions of legal workers by accident and fail to catch the majority of undocumented immigrants. For instance, if E-Verify were instituted nation-wide 3.6 million Americans would be denied employment each year and have to visit the Social Security Administration to correct their records. The employer either fires them or delays training. Will a biometric ID card make this system better? How does that help American workers?

Eh? If a national ID is issued to every citizen and legal resident and the ID is required to get things like bank accounts, or even jobs (for paying taxes), then how on earth can it exclude legal workers (unless by mistake.. **** happens). If anything it helps fight illegal workers and immigration, since they cant function in society without the ID.

Fourth, it will cost businesses up to $800 to buy a scanner. Or as Senator Chuck Schumer says, employers can just go down to the DMV. Senator Schumer doesn’t know squat about running a business. The last thing an employer wants to do is spend time at the DMV when he could be spending it improving his business. And all this during an economic slump!

Those costs would be minimal and the ability to streamline administration procedures in government, companies and intra companies would far far out weigh the minimal cost.

Fifth, it would treat every American like a criminal by requiring them to enter their most intimate and personal data into a government database. One of the benefits of not having committed any crimes is that my information is not in a government record office. I’d like to keep it that way.

You already do.. drivers license, tax, birth, bank details, and so and so on. And that is just the stuff they legally have.. just think the amount of info that the NSA has.

Andalublue · Mar 12, 2010

Laila said:
It would all be in one place (the National ID introduced in UK has all data stored in one place)

Whereas now, various rubbish bureaucracies have a hold of different parts of data about me and because I know UK quangos are so **** and disorganised, it works to my advantage.

The UK government is about to scrap the plan for an ID scheme.

Ikari · Mar 12, 2010

PeteEU said:
Yes the classic fear mongering tactic. You carry a drivers license, does that conjure up the same fears?

It doesn't currently have implanted biometric data or RFID. When CO starts to try to include those in the license, then I shall rally against it.

PeteEU said:
Eh? If a national ID is issued to every citizen and legal resident and the ID is required to get things like bank accounts, or even jobs (for paying taxes), then how on earth can it exclude legal workers (unless by mistake.. **** happens). If anything it helps fight illegal workers and immigration, since they cant function in society without the ID.

It will hardly do anything against illegal workers. They're not exactly on the payroll to be counted towards taxes and such anyway (employers tend not to really keep paper work). They are paid cash under the table and as for interaction in society....they have cash, why couldn't they? Maybe they don't get a bank account and keep their money in a mattress, but they still have cash. That's all you need. Everything else, Credit Cards, Checks, etc. are all just representations of cash.

Cephus · Mar 12, 2010

I support the idea of a national ID, I don't necessarily support this specific plan. There are too many downsides that need to be addressed. Fix those problems, make it cheap and easy to use, require it across the board and you've got my vote.

Phantom · Mar 12, 2010

jamesrage said:
Do you support an National ID?

I'm 100% opposed to a national identification card, but 2 years ago I talk about this to other people I got shouted down as a conspiracy theorist. Some people get angry for some reason :neutral:

jamesrage · Mar 12, 2010

PeteEU said:
Coming from a country that has had a national ID system in place for 50 or so years, I can say it helps workers and employers big time.

How does a national ID stop those who already break the law from hiring illegals?

Well if it is specifically designed for that then sure, but if it is just an ID.. then :rofl no. The only reason I have ever given my ID to my employer was for tax purposes and bank verification details. Government never told me if I could work for a company or not lol.

So you can get a job at a company without ID?

Yes the classic fear mongering tactic. You carry a drivers license, does that conjure up the same fears?

My driver's license does not have biometric data.

Eh? If a national ID is issued to every citizen and legal resident and the ID is required to get things like bank accounts, or even jobs (for paying taxes), then how on earth can it exclude legal workers (unless by mistake.. **** happens). If anything it helps fight illegal workers and immigration, since they cant function in society without the ID.

Illegals are usually paid cash under the table. So how is it going to stop a scumbag who hires illegals?

You already do.. drivers license, tax, birth, bank details, and so and so on. And that is just the stuff they legally have.. just think the amount of info that the NSA has.

So giving them a few more things won't matter?

Cephus · Mar 12, 2010

jamesrage said:
How does a national ID stop those who already break the law from hiring illegals?

It doesn't, that takes immigration and employment enforcement. Who ever claimed it would magically make it happen?

So you can get a job at a company without ID?

I've never gotten a job in my life where I didn't need to provide the company with ID. How is this any different?

My driver's license does not have biometric data.

And I'm sure it's quite easy to duplicate too. Licenses have started getting more data encoded on them for years, mine used to just be a piece of plastic with a picture, now it's got a magnetic strip on the back containing who knows what information. It won't be too long until they have embedded smart chips too.

Illegals are usually paid cash under the table. So how is it going to stop a scumbag who hires illegals?

ICE officials making spot-checks to every employer? After all, the fire department does it already, so does the health inspector. Existing solution to an existing problem.

jamesrage · Mar 12, 2010

Cephus said:
It doesn't, that takes immigration and employment enforcement. Who ever claimed it would magically make it happen?

Those who are pushing for the Real ID/national ID claim it would.Which is one of the reasons why it is being pushed in the first place.

I've never gotten a job in my life where I didn't need to provide the company with ID. How is this any different?

So in other words you do need permission from the government to get a job.

And I'm sure it's quite easy to duplicate too. Licenses have started getting more data encoded on them for years, mine used to just be a piece of plastic with a picture, now it's got a magnetic strip on the back containing who knows what information. It won't be too long until they have embedded smart chips too.

I would rather that ID/ dirvers's license be just a piece plastic with a photo in it and nothing.The thing that makes incrementation so successful is that people do not notice **** when it is little steps,however all those little steps usually lead to something big. I would think that if order for biometic data of ID cards to be successful then that means the government would have to have a database with the finger prints,dna and other **** on ever American, I do not want to give the government a chance.

ICE officials making spot-checks to every employer?

Not that I know of.

After all, the fire department does it already, so does the health inspector. Existing solution to an existing problem.

These people usually do not look into the employment records or ask employees if there are here legally.

Maximus Zeebra · Mar 12, 2010

jamesrage said:
Do you support an National ID?

I do not want the government having my biometric data, it is not none of their business.

Do you have a passport? How many Americans do you think have one? Those are biometric.
Another thing is the corporations themselves starting to introduce more and more biomtetric "security"..

jamesrage said:
A national ID hurts American workers while pretending to help them.

An ID card other than a passport is a good thing.

jamesrage said:
First, every worker would have to ask permission from the federal government to get a job.

But America is not free anymore, this is the way its been for a long time. Social security number is a government permission to work. Anyone "new"(immigrants) needs a work permission.

jamesrage said:
American workers shouldn’t have to beg or plead to anybody to get permission to work. Being employed should be a private agreement between an employer and employee. Period. The government should get out of the way.

Agreed.

jamesrage said:
Second, carrying around government papers with biometric identification on it conjures up images of a more technologically savvy Oceania or East Germany. No thanks.

Same.. And aside from biometrics being unfortunate in general, it is also a security risk in my opinion. Biometric passports with RFID chips on them compromises the whole system and will in the end making faking and stealing of IDs far easier.

Imagine when such data as fingerprints, DNA and iris patterns are available all over(including the internet). We all know how vulnerable data is.
How the heck anyone thinks it is more difficult to copy and paste data the correct way than fiddle around with a passport to make it look real when its fake, is beyond me.

Imagine the grudge of the future when someone just wants to pay back at you, they steal your hair, copy your fingerprints, kills someone and plants evidence against you, voila, rest of your life in jail(in the US).

jamesrage said:
Fifth, it would treat every American like a criminal by requiring them to enter their most intimate and personal data into a government database. One of the benefits of not having committed any crimes is that my information is not in a government record office. I’d like to keep it that way.

Agreed. But these days the governments are tightening the grip around the people and treating everyone like criminals and scum, and surveiling everyone. Thats the way forward, another way forward is more government, and them controlling our lives, without the people having any say.

Imagine politicians with biometric data how they can easily stop people who are against them. Planting evidence, blackmails and so fourth..

We are developing the wrong ways.

Cephus · Mar 12, 2010

jamesrage said:
Those who are pushing for the Real ID/national ID claim it would.Which is one of the reasons why it is being pushed in the first place.

Certainly, it would probably help, at least for those who aren't aware that their employees are using stolen ID, etc. I've known of people who "borrowed" ID so they could work, having a national database that could identify the same ID being used in different areas would help crack down on those people. It's not a complete solution, but it can be one part of a comprehensive plan.

So in other words you do need permission from the government to get a job.

Yup, welcome to reality.

Not that I know of.

The point is, they ought to be. Every single employer out there ought to be checked at least bi-annually to make sure the legal documents are proper and the tax documents are filed correctly. Those that consistently do not do these things get large fines. Those who are major offenders lose their business licenses.

These people usually do not look into the employment records or ask employees if there are here legally.

No, they just make sure that all of the paperwork within their particular pervue are properly filled out. What's wrong with having immigration do the same thing?

Ethereal · Mar 12, 2010

I'm absolutely against it. The Federal government is far too large and intrusive as it is.

jamesrage · Mar 12, 2010

Cephus said:
Certainly, it would probably help, at least for those who aren't aware that their employees are using stolen ID, etc. I've known of people who "borrowed" ID so they could work, having a national database that could identify the same ID being used in different areas would help crack down on those people.

Wouldn't that need a national database of dna,hair samples and finger prints?

It's not a complete solution, but it can be one part of a comprehensive plan.

If they are already not verifying the legal status of their employees, already hiring illegals why would this help? A compromise only meaningful if both ends of the deal are held up. I do not see the government using this to verify the legal status of employees but rather an excuse to get all or least most people's personal info and DNA stored in a database.

No, they just make sure that all of the paperwork within their particular pervue are properly filled out. What's wrong with having immigration do the same thing?

Nothing is wrong with having immigration do the same thing.We still do not need a national ID for that.

Toothpicvic · Mar 12, 2010

No I don't. But I think that fear of "teh big bad gubberment" is grossly over-exaggerated. If they made me do it I'd hate it, but I wouldn't feel afraid of my life either.

PeteEU · Mar 13, 2010

jamesrage said:
How does a national ID stop those who already break the law from hiring illegals?

You cant stop it, but you can make it much harder.

So you can get a job at a company without ID?

A legal job? No, since you need to give your employer tax data which include the ID for identification purposes.

My driver's license does not have biometric data.

Nor does my ID.. it is 50 years old. But Biometric data is the future. My ID does not even have a picture, that is how old it is

. But it does have a unique number that is mine and only mine.

Illegals are usually paid cash under the table. So how is it going to stop a scumbag who hires illegals?

It aint. But it will make it harder to hirer, the more places you need your ID to function in society. A national ID will never get rid of the "shadow market" or what ever you call it. People will still hire a guy under the table for simple tasks because they can get away with it. That has nothing to do with a national ID... more to do with tax evasion.

So giving them a few more things won't matter?

Nope not really, especially if results in massive cost cutting in administrative costs... which it does if you do it right.

Andalublue · Mar 13, 2010

I think that the issue isn't about whether an ID scheme is good idea or not. Every country has an ID system, if not a compulsory national ID card. The UK has no national ID card but if people need to prove their identity they can do with passport, driving licence, whatever.

The problem with National ID card schemes is if it becomes compulsory. To my Quixotic, lefty standpoint, the government has no right to demand I identify myself on the spot, whenever they choose. If I'm getting on with my business, bothering no one, getting on with life, the government has got no business demanding I identify myself. I am a citizen, not a subject.

Here in Spain there is an ID scheme and it is compulsory. It is also discriminatory. I am an EU national, legally resident in Spain. I am registered as a resident, tax payer and home-owner. I do not get issued with a National ID card, but a certificate with my NIE (ID number for foreign residents). I am legally obliged to carry this A4 paper certificate as well as my passport wherever I go. I resent being asked and resent having to carry impractical documents that no one else is being required to do.

earthworm · Mar 13, 2010

jamesrage said:
I do not want illegals getting jobs periodYou would prefer to see them starve???. I just do not trust the government to uphold their end of the deal,nor do I want national ID.Besides why would people who already knowingly break the law by hiring illegals somehow give a rats ass about a national ID card?

James has some good points, believe it or not..
I have doubts that we have the quality of men to implement this national ID system, at least now, maybe in the future..
Our government must be doing, at all times, everything possible to instill trust..
A thousand page document(when 10 pages should suffice) does not do this..
Congress - wake up.
I think its a good idea and should work in controlling the so-called illegal immigrants...If Mexico were not so much an open sewer, maybe this problem would go away...If America were to be non-racist and tolerant, maybe this problem would go away...
As far as the medical records go...These should be much easier for medical personnel to access...This area is a mess.
How is the German system working?? Or the French system..
And why not have just a state only system??

earthworm · Mar 13, 2010

Andalublue said:
I think that the issue isn't about whether an ID scheme is good idea or not. Every country has an ID system, if not a compulsory national ID card. The UK has no national ID card but if people need to prove their identity they can do with passport, driving license, whatever.

The problem with National ID card schemes is if it becomes compulsory. To my Quixotic, lefty standpoint, the government has no right to demand I identify myself on the spot, whenever they choose. If I'm getting on with my business, bothering no one, getting on with life, the government has got no business demanding I identify myself. I am a citizen, not a subject.

Here in Spain there is an ID scheme and it is compulsory. It is also discriminatory. I am an EU national, legally resident in Spain. I am registered as a resident, tax payer and home-owner. I do not get issued with a National ID card, but a certificate with my NIE (ID number for foreign residents). I am legally obliged to carry this A4 paper certificate as well as my passport wherever I go. I resent being asked and resent having to carry impractical documents that no one else is being required to do.

I might feel the same way, I have no love for paperwork, nor do I like being treated as a suspect by the police or so-called authorities..
But, we do have problems, and because of this the people suffer.
Our government must improve itself, and the police must learn that not all men are criminals..
If I were a policeman, I might believe this, that all men are criminals..
So there must be a system in place that allows for the chaff to be separated from the wheat..

jamesrage · Mar 13, 2010

earthworm said:
James has some good points, believe it or not..
I have doubts that we have the quality of men to implement this national ID system, at least now, maybe in the future..
Our government must be doing, at all times, everything possible to instill trust..
A thousand page document(when 10 pages should suffice) does not do this..
Congress - wake up.
I think its a good idea and should work in controlling the so-called illegal immigrants...If Mexico were not so much an open sewer, maybe this problem would go away...If America were to be non-racist and tolerant, maybe this problem would go away...
As far as the medical records go...These should be much easier for medical personnel to access...This area is a mess.
How is the German system working?? Or the French system..
And why not have just a state only system??

Mexico is not our problem.The people who should worry about Mexico are its citizens.Allowing Mexico to dump their citizens here in the US is not fixing Mexico. If you are worried about them starving then start a charity that feeds poor starving Mexicans.

Cephus · Mar 13, 2010

jamesrage said:
Wouldn't that need a national database of dna,hair samples and finger prints?

Why would it? Right now, if there was a national employment database that checked every single social security number used, it would pick up that the same person with the same SSN is working for 4 different employers in 4 different states. That ought to raise some red flags and all four of those employees ought to be examined to find out which one is the real one and which ones, if illegal, ought to be deported.

If they are already not verifying the legal status of their employees, already hiring illegals why would this help? A compromise only meaningful if both ends of the deal are held up. I do not see the government using this to verify the legal status of employees but rather an excuse to get all or least most people's personal info and DNA stored in a database.

You're looking for a single solution that's going to solve all problems and that's just not realistic. A national ID and employment database will stop a lot of identity theft issues. For people who are getting paid under the table, that might require a different tactic, the ICE spot-checks I mentioned for instance. Stop being paranoid.

Nothing is wrong with having immigration do the same thing.We still do not need a national ID for that.

Immigration cannot do what the national ID does. Stop looking for a single all-encompassing solution for every problem under the sun and stop acting like the government is some big, bad boogieman. It's ridiculous on the face of it.

jujuman13 · Mar 13, 2010

jamesrage posted(I say no, I think this is just a an excuse to nationalize IDs with the hollow promises of enforcement. I do not want the government having my biometric data, it is not none of their business)

This particular piece is what is called a double negative, which becomes an affirmative.

(it is not none of their business)

Perhaps you would be kind enough to clarify your position?

obvious Child · Mar 13, 2010

While there are obvious benefits to such a card, the government's history with data privacy is about as reassuring as having a squirt gun during a Zombie Infestation.

So No.

Do you support an National ID?

Do you support an National ID?

Yes

No

maybe/other/I do not know

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Arcana XV

Harry Guerrilla

Arcana XV

molten_dragon

Anti-Hypocrite

PeteEU

Andalublue

Hello again!

Ikari

Cephus

Phantom

John Schnatter 2012

jamesrage

Cephus

jamesrage

Maximus Zeebra

MoG

Cephus

Ethereal

jamesrage

Toothpicvic

PeteEU

Andalublue

Hello again!

earthworm

earthworm

jamesrage

Cephus

jujuman13

obvious Child

Equal Opportunity Hater