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Miracle Marijuana

Should Medical Marijuana Be Legal?

  • Yes

    Votes: 40 78.4%

  • No

    Votes: 5 9.8%

  • Other

    Votes: 6 11.8%
  • Total voters
    51
CaptainCourtesy said:
I COMPLETELY AGREE. That video is idiotic... and read my post. Any anti-legalizer who claims that marijuana will make you crazy or kill you is LYING and presenting propaganda, not facts, and I will challenge anyone who makes those claims. Just as I have challenged the fallacious claims made by pro-legalizers, too.
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Good morning Cap'n.:2wave:
 
spud_meister said:
for those who want it legalised, how would you then regulate it, would you keep it as it is, with gangs growing/selling it, and private individuals growing it, or make it more similar to tobacco, with the whole thing done in farms for profit and such?
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You are confusing decriminalization with legalization.

Decriminalization is merely making it so possession of small quantities is a civil infraction comparable to a parking ticket. The inherent flaw with decriminalization is it does not do anything to address the already established black market distribution. Due to international treaty this is the best that can be done, and a necessary first step that may eventually lead to a softening of attitudes and viewpoints and ultimately to legalization. decriminalization is a flawed concept it does nothing to deal with the elephant in the room (black market), and is only minimally effective in a very small scope, but it at least does not ruin countless live for mere possession..

Legalization is establishing control over the entire market, from production to distribution, it is taking the black market out of the equation, much like the current situation for for alcohol.

It is establishing control, Controls such as NOT having it sold in schools or to school kids, not smuggled across our borders, not grown in our national forests, and not having distribution rights determined as a result of gang violence and which ruthless criminals can kill their way to the top (Q. when is the last time you saw commonplace drive by shootings over alcohol distribution?).

In order to establish control over the market, we need to assume control from beginning to end in the manufacture/distribution process (and no this does mean government run marijuana farms - look at alcohol distribution, it is controlled, yet companies such as Jack Daniels and Sam Adams are involved, not gangs and NOT our government).

One follow up question/objection is often asked, and yuo already mention it in your question, that is what do we do about those who want to just grow their own at home?

The answer to that is to allow it, but only with a permit, and appropriate tax paid (reasonable cost and readily available, unlike the Harrison stamp tax of yesteryear). If someone is growing privately without a permit, then they are guilty of tax evasion, and can face the penalties for that (this is what those running illegal shine stills get busted for.. off the top of my head I think it carries 10 yrs/$10k).

Since a major reason for legalization is to eliminate distribution/availability to children, there also must be safeguards to make sure a minor cannot just stroll onto a pot field or a home garden and pluck a bud at will. So outdoor gardens will be costly, and will inevitably move almost all of the private grows indoors, or to greenhouses.

Private growers cannot sell to third parties, and all products from sanctioned distributors are to be sold in a controlled environment much like alcohol is currently.

We have a model in place already, we saw the positive effects of ending prohibition of alcohol and reestablishing control, yet when we see the same problems inherent in a black market that were there during prohibition, we continue to pursue policy which created this black market, and created the criminals, the cartels, and the gangs in the first place. We have failed to learn from our past mistakes and are repeating failed policy.

almost 40 years into this "War on Drugs", and drugs are cheaper, stronger, and easier to get than when this all began, so too is violence and crimes committed as a result of the black market. Prohibition is a failed policy, and we are in a failed war that has had an astronomical cost both monetarily, and socially.

As a result of prohibition, not only do we still have a drug problem as bad or worse than we began, but we have also compounded it by creating a monster of criminal problem as well.
 
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reefedjib said:
****ing hell. Look, why should we legalize marijuana if it causes those kinds of problems?
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see my post above for partial reasons.

We need to legalize it because the lions share of the problems have been CREATED by prohibition and the "war on drugs". Problems such as:

Gang violence
Distribution to kids
inaccessibility of treatment
lack of education, and the spread of propaganda/misinformation

your arguments ignore the elephant in the room while focusing on acts and actions which are problematic independent of legality.

a quote for you:
Drug legalization is NOT to be construed as an approach to our drug problem, drug legalization is about our crime and violence problem.

Once we legalize drugs we have got to then buckle down and start dealing with our drug problem
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unfortunately I cannot find the name to give proper credit for the speaker who said this- I believe I linked to the vid it is contained in earlier in this thread though.

Edit to add the link to my post containing vid this quote is from (it is well worth the watch):

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/67825-miracle-marijuana-15.html#post1058616519
 
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marduc said:
see my post above for partial reasons.

We need to legalize it because the lions share of the problems have been CREATED by prohibition and the "war on drugs". Problems such as:

Gang violence
Distribution to kids
inaccessibility of treatment
lack of education, and the spread of propaganda/misinformation

your arguments ignore the elephant in the room while focusing on acts and actions which are problematic independent of legality.
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Thank you!! At long last, an answer to my question. Well done. Some people were having problems answering a simple question.

Actually, this is what I said:

reefedjib said:
Here is the answer I came up with. I think it has to do with that it doesn't increase an existing problem, but it legitimizes the use that occurs anyway. People will still use and cause problems. The difference is that legalizing prevents the creation of criminal enterprise.
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So I agree that legalization addresses the criminal problem of black market deals and gang violence and sale to minors. I didn't put it as well as you. I especially like your simple observation that "We need to legalize it because the lions share of the problems have been CREATED by prohibition and the "war on drugs"".

a quote for you:
Drug legalization is NOT to be construed as an approach to our drug problem, drug legalization is about our crime and violence problem.

Once we legalize drugs we have got to then buckle down and start dealing with our drug problem
Click to expand...

unfortunately I cannot find the name to give proper credit for the speaker who said this- I believe I linked to the vid it is contained in earlier in this thread though.

Edit to add the link to my post containing vid this quote is from (it is well worth the watch):

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/67825-miracle-marijuana-15.html#post1058616519
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This is a good quote. Legalize to remove the criminal problem, then deal with the drug problem. I like it.
 
reefedjib said:
****ing hell. Look, why should we legalize marijuana if it causes those kinds of problems?
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I've been answering that question for the last 4 posts.

Marijuana use alone doesn't cause any problems for anyone else. Period. Your question assumes that it does and that's just plain wrong. However, marijuana use followed by certain actions can cause problems for others. So those actions while intoxicated are what should be illegal, not marijuana use by itself.

It's like you're asking why should we legalize knives when they can be used to stab innocent people. Well knives aren't the problem, irresponsible use of knives is the problem. Just like marijuana isn't the problem, irresponsible use of marijuana is the problem. So the irresponsible use of marijuana is what should be illegal, not the entire substance altogether.
 
LiberalAvenger said:
The propaganda knife slices in both directions, Cap'n.
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And you can bet that if people were flooding in here stating such hugely exaggerated propoganda for the anti-legailization side that CC, myself, and others would dcall them on it equally as much. Propoganda and inaccurate exaggerations are bad regardless of which side is using it.
 
Binary_Digit said:
I've been answering that question for the last 4 posts.

Marijuana use alone doesn't cause any problems for anyone else. Period. Your question assumes that it does and that's just plain wrong. However, marijuana use followed by certain actions can cause problems for others. So those actions while intoxicated are what should be illegal, not marijuana use by itself.

It's like you're asking why should we legalize knives when they can be used to stab innocent people. Well knives aren't the problem, irresponsible use of knives is the problem. Just like marijuana isn't the problem, irresponsible use of marijuana is the problem. So the irresponsible use of marijuana is what should be illegal, not the entire substance altogether.
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You cannot get intoxicated from knives. Marijuana, like alcohol, intoxicates one whereby you cannot perform a normal activity like driving without causing risk for others injury. Marijuana, like alcohol, is a contributing factor to the crime. Why should we legalize a substance that intoxicates? It is a danger.
 
reefedjib said:
You cannot get intoxicated from knives.
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You can't smoke knives either, but that's beside the point. Just like drugs, the misuse of knives can cause problems for other people and yet that's not a good reason to outlaw the responsible use of knives. Just like the misuse of drugs is not a good reason to outlaw the responsible use of drugs. It's the same thing.

reefedjib said:
Marijuana, like alcohol, intoxicates one whereby you cannot perform a normal activity like driving without causing risk for others injury.
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Then driving under the influence should be illegal. What have I been saying this whole time?

reefedjib said:
Marijuana, like alcohol, is a contributing factor to the crime.
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No, it's a prerequisite not a contributing factor. A contributing factor would be the poor judgment required to drive while intoxicated. That's like saying the car is a contributing factor. It's not.

reefedjib said:
Why should we legalize a substance that intoxicates? It is a danger.
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Because it's not a danger to get stoned and watch MTV by yourself. Assuming it is a danger is a mischaracterization of the issue. There's a huge difference between using drugs in the privacy of your own home and using drugs followed by driving under the influence of them. I'm trying really hard to make that point.
 
Binary_Digit said:
You can't smoke knives either, but that's beside the point. Just like drugs, the misuse of knives can cause problems for other people and yet that's not a good reason to outlaw the responsible use of knives. Just like the misuse of drugs is not a good reason to outlaw the responsible use of drugs. It's the same thing.


Then driving under the influence should be illegal. What have I been saying this whole time?


No, it's a prerequisite not a contributing factor. A contributing factor would be the poor judgment required to drive while intoxicated. That's like saying the car is a contributing factor. It's not.


Because it's not a danger to get stoned and watch MTV by yourself. Assuming it is a danger is a mischaracterization of the issue. There's a huge difference between using drugs in the privacy of your own home and using drugs followed by driving under the influence of them. I'm trying really hard to make that point.
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Whether you can smoke knives is meaningless. My point is intoxication impairs your ability to do things like driving, making them dangerous. Intoxication impairs judgment: smoking weed is a contributing factor. It is a danger, like consuming alcohol.

Your reason for making marijuana legal is a bad one. A better reason is that it eliminates the criminal problem associated with drugs. It leaves the problem of DUI.
 
reefedjib said:
Whether you can smoke knives is meaningless. My point is intoxication impairs your ability to do things like driving, making them dangerous.
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The fact that intoxication impairs the ability to drive is meaningless unless the person actually drives. Driving while intoxicated should be illegal. Simply getting intoxicated should not be.

reefedjib said:
Intoxication impairs judgment: smoking weed is a contributing factor. It is a danger, like consuming alcohol.
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It's still a danger whether smoking weed is legal or not. Since you agree that legalization would not lead to increased use, why do you assume that legalization would lead to increased danger? That makes no sense whatsoever.

reefedjib said:
Your reason for making marijuana legal is a bad one. A better reason is that it eliminates the criminal problem associated with drugs. It leaves the problem of DUI.
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I'm not arguing this to support legalization, I'm arguing this because your question falsely assumed that legalizing weed would legalize driving while intoxicated. That's a leap of logic you have not supported, especially since you agree that legalization would not lead to increased use.
 
Binary_Digit said:
The fact that intoxication impairs the ability to drive is meaningless unless the person actually drives. Driving while intoxicated should be illegal. Simply getting intoxicated should not be.
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The point of the argument is that smoking weed makes you intoxiccated, so that if you were to break the DUI law you could kill someone. Alcohol already does this. Why should we legalize something else that does this?


It's still a danger whether smoking weed is legal or not. Since you agree that legalization would not lead to increased use, why do you assume that legalization would lead to increased danger? That makes no sense whatsoever.
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I did not say it led to increased danger, only that we were legalizing something that does lead to this danger.


I'm not arguing this to support legalization, I'm arguing this because your question falsely assumed that legalizing weed would legalize driving while intoxicated. That's a leap of logic you have not supported, especially since you agree that legalization would not lead to increased use.
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Bull****. Show me where I said that legalizing weed would legalize driving while intoxicated. Nowhere did I say this. The premise to my question is why should we legalize pot if... It is inherently an argument for/against legalization.
 
reefedjib said:
The point of the argument is that smoking weed makes you intoxiccated, so that if you were to break the DUI law you could kill someone. Alcohol already does this. Why should we legalize something else that does this?
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Why shouldn't we? Legalization would not increase the number of DUIs because legalization would not increase the number of users.

reefedjib said:
I did not say it led to increased danger, only that we were legalizing something that does lead to this danger.
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Marijuana use does not "lead" to DUIs or any other "danger" for non-users, any more than pencils "lead" to mispelled words.

reefedjib said:
Bull****. Show me where I said that legalizing weed would legalize driving while intoxicated. Nowhere did I say this.
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Your question was this:

reefedjib said:
Their question was why should we legitimize the problem?
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And you defined the "problem" as this:

reefedjib said:
But the risk is there that a legal substance can affect other people. This is a problem with alcohol, already legal.
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So once again, the question as it stood falsely assumed that legalizing weed would also legalize subsequent irresponsible behaviors that can affect other people. If you didn't mean it that way then the question was poorly worded.

reefedjib said:
The premise to my question is why should we legalize pot if...
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Because, like hundreds of thousands of other things in existence, by itself marijuana use doesn't cause any problems for non-users. It's only certain subsequent behaviors while intoxicated that can cause problems for other users, and that's what should be illegal. Contrary to this wide-sweeping, monolithic, ban-the-whole-substance because some people might use it irresponsibly B.S. that's been shoved down everyone's throats by the drug warriors.
 
reefedjib said:
The point of the argument is that smoking weed makes you intoxiccated, so that if you were to break the DUI law you could kill someone. Alcohol already does this. Why should we legalize something else that does this?
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Because people drive while high regardless of whether or not pot is/was legal, it is a zero sum factor, unless there is a valid argument that legalizing pot would change the rate of that which is already occurring.

Earlier you used the term "legitimize". Would legalizing pot legitimize driving while high? I would say no, pot would be legal, driving while stoned would remain illegal, just as is currently the case with alcohol.

Is driving while drunk legitimized by alcohol being available? Alcohol consumption is accepted and tolerated, driving while drunk is not.
What is different between that and marijuana? -hell you can even work that message into the current commercials with the guy in the ambulance saying "I was just buzzed"

It is not the substance that is the problem, it is the lack of judgment that is, legalizing pot does not mean legitimizing stupidity while stoned. Why different rules and inconsistencies for different substances? It is mixed messages like that that produce a lack of respect for the laws of the land.
 
Binary_Digit said:
Why shouldn't we? Legalization would not increase the number of DUIs because legalization would not increase the number of users.
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Well, that's a weak ass argument.

So once again, the question as it stood falsely assumed that legalizing weed would also legalize subsequent irresponsible behaviors that can affect other people. If you didn't mean it that way then the question was poorly worded.
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In no way does that mean we would legalize driving under the influence.

Because, like hundreds of thousands of other things in existence, by itself marijuana use doesn't cause any problems for non-users. It's only certain subsequent behaviors while intoxicated that can cause problems for other users, and that's what should be illegal. Contrary to this wide-sweeping, monolithic, ban-the-whole-substance because some people might use it irresponsibly B.S. that's been shoved down everyone's throats by the drug warriors.
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But it is their best argument and it has some merit - why legalize something that leads to harming others if used irresponsibly?
 
reefedjib said:
But it is their best argument and it has some merit - why legalize something that leads to harming others if used irresponsibly?
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ANYTHING used irresponsibly can be a factor in harming others. That is not, and has never been, a good reason to ban it altogether. Nobody has explained why drugs are any different.
 
marduc said:
Because people drive while high regardless of whether or not pot is/was legal, it is a zero sum factor, unless there is a valid argument that legalizing pot would change the rate of that which is already occurring.

Earlier you used the term "legitimize". Would legalizing pot legitimize driving while high? I would say no, pot would be legal, driving while stoned would remain illegal, just as is currently the case with alcohol.

Is driving while drunk legitimized by alcohol being available? Alcohol consumption is accepted and tolerated, driving while drunk is not.
What is different between that and marijuana? -hell you can even work that message into the current commercials with the guy in the ambulance saying "I was just buzzed"

It is not the substance that is the problem, it is the lack of judgment that is, legalizing pot does not mean legitimizing stupidity while stoned. Why different rules and inconsistencies for different substances? It is mixed messages like that that produce a lack of respect for the laws of the land.
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I guess I did poorly word it and it was a spur of the moment correction from an earlier complaint. Driving DUI is DUI, pot or alcohol or whatever.

What I meant is why legalize something that impairs judgement and may lead to harming others if used irresponsibly? It is the best argument against legalization.
 
Binary_Digit said:
ANYTHING used irresponsibly can be a factor in harming others. That is not, and has never been, a good reason to ban it altogether. Nobody has explained why drugs are any different.
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They get you high, alter your state of consciousness and impair your judgment.
 
reefedjib said:
But it is their best argument and it has some merit - why legalize something that leads to harming others if used irresponsibly?
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Because the harms done by keeping it illegal outweigh what harms are done by the drug itself. One can be altered with a change in legality, the other remains constant regardless of legality.

Remove the criminal problem, then address the drug problem, educate people on the harms of driving while stoned, just as we do with alcohol, educate people on the harms of marijuana.. just like we have done with tobacco, removing the criminal problem will allow the government to establish credibility and rapport with those who use, instead of ostracizing them.

The current situation is one where someone will think "well I already am breaking the law, and will be going to jail if I get caught with this pot, what harm is there if I drive after I smoke a little, the end result is the same - why the **** not"
 
marduc said:
why legalize something that leads to harming others if used irresponsibly?
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Because the harms done by keeping it illegal outweigh what harms are done by the drug itself. One can be altered with a change in legality, the other remains constant regardless of legality.

Remove the criminal problem, then address the drug problem, educate people on the harms of driving while stoned, just as we do with alcohol, educate people on the harms of marijuana.. just like we have done with tobacco
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That nails it right there. Thank you.
 
reefedjib said:
I guess I did poorly word it and it was a spur of the moment correction from an earlier complaint. Driving DUI is DUI, pot or alcohol or whatever.

What I meant is why legalize something that impairs judgement and may lead to harming others if used irresponsibly? It is the best argument against legalization.
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Because there will be irresponsible actions by some regardless of its legal status, legalizing it would not change this. Legalizing will allow the focus to shift to the irresponsible actions that do occur instead of lumping every single drug user and every single person who gets high while sitting on their couch into one big conglomerate that fails to make the distinction between responsible and irresponsible actions.

The best argument for legalization is a circumstance that will be relatively unchanged regardless of whether or not actions are took? It remains unchanged, it is a zero sum argument it is neither a pro nor a con, but is instead an illogical emotional hangup. The potential benefits to be had in eliminating a black market far outweigh this "argument", after all this is what the whole issue is about.. Harm reduction.
 
marduc said:
Because there will be irresponsible actions by some regardless of its legal status, legalizing it would not change this. Legalizing will allow the focus to shift to the irresponsible actions that do occur instead of lumping every single drug user and every single person who gets high while sitting on their couch into one big conglomerate that fails to make the distinction between responsible and irresponsible actions.

The best argument for legalization is a circumstance that will be relatively unchanged regardless of whether or not actions are took? It remains unchanged, it is a zero sum argument it is neither a pro nor a con, but is instead an illogical emotional hangup. The potential benefits to be had in eliminating a black market far outweigh this "argument", after all this is what the whole issue is about.. Harm reduction.
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Yeah, I liked your phrasing in the previous message better, where you started out with the assertion that the harm done with marijuana illegal outweighs the harm done by irresponsible use of the drug alone.

The additional point, or rather the preliminary point, is that the level of use and abuse will not change whether it is legal or not.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
When you post false and inaccurate information like this you completely hurt the credibility of the pro-legalization side.
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That's exactly what I was thinking when I read your anecdote on how you could die from not being able to throw up excessive alcohol while high on pot. :doh
 
You guys still talking about legalizing pot?

Didn't this thread start, like, 11-12 years ago?

It seems to never end.

Has anybody said anything different?

No? Well, ok.

If anyone does, somebody come get me. :2wave:
 
NoJingoLingo said:
That's exactly what I was thinking when I read your anecdote on how you could die from not being able to throw up excessive alcohol while high on pot. :doh
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Except YOU would be wrong about that. It is wholly possible to die from alcohol intoxication. Throwing up alleviates alcohol intoxication. I hope that logic clears it up for you.
 
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