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Are Rights Natural?

Are Rights Natural?


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Lol, you might actually be the most angry person I have ever debated with. I guess this isn't exclusive to religion. I attempted to explain my reasoning after the comment you quoted. I'll try to be a little more descriptive.

I like how Thomas Paine broke it down in "Rights of Man." How at creation, or at man's beginning, however you want to look at it, man was completely unrestricted. Do you disagree with that? Also, how would this limitless freedom be considered different from rights? If you think it differs, I would love an explanation. Perhaps in this is where the confusion between our two lines of thinking lies.

There was no structure to support and enforce those rights. They had lots of freedoms, yes, but no rights since a right is a legal construct.

At least that's my take on it.

hmm... yeah, I see the right to free speech as natural. Governments before decided this should be restricted. Our Government decided to protect it.

How would a complete lack of government impact your right to free speech?

Voting rights would be a different matter. Of course those rights aren't natural.

If I was alone in the woods, yes I could say anything I wanted to, but I don't see how it would become a right, since at that point the distinction is irrelevant. I do agree that it would be a freedom.
 
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I have asked this question MANY times of those who believe in natural rights and have never gotten an answer. How would YOU define rights?

I believe rights are associated with freedom. In our most natural state we are free to do exactly as we please. We are restricted only by our personal morality, or our ability to protect ourselves from the unrestricted rights of others.

I don't believe that the Constitution creates the right for American's to have free speech, I believe it protects it. A law against it would restrict it.

When creating a government you determine which rights should be protected, and which should be restricted.

So my definition of Rights would be whatever an individual was free to do.



On a side note- For some reason I always thought Thomas Paine was a favored source among the left. I guess it was because of the person who showed it to me, and the leftist website named after him... I'm a little surprised to hear so much opposition to the ideas of natural rights. Interesting debate.
 
I believe rights are associated with freedom. In our most natural state we are free to do exactly as we please. We are restricted only by our personal morality, or our ability to protect ourselves from the unrestricted rights of others.

I don't believe that the Constitution creates the right for American's to have free speech, I believe it protects it. A law against it would restrict it.

When creating a government you determine which rights should be protected, and which should be restricted.

So my definition of Rights would be whatever an individual was free to do.



On a side note- For some reason I always thought Thomas Paine was a favored source among the left. I guess it was because of the person who showed it to me, and the leftist website named after him... I'm a little surprised to hear so much opposition to the ideas of natural rights. Interesting debate.

To me, what you are talking about are not rights. They are desires or values. I desire to speak about whatever I want. Doesn't mean I can. My values say that I can speak about whatever I want. But if the society in which I live has different values, I do not have the right to act on that desire or value. A "right" is something that is permitted or allowed. There is nothing inalienable about them. They are relative based on a society, just as those individual desires or values are based on and individual... or society.

And the natural rights position is more of a libertarian position.
 
There was no structure to support and enforce those rights. They had lots of freedoms, yes, but no rights since a right is a legal construct.

At least that's my take on it.



If I was alone in the woods, yes I could say anything I wanted to, but I don't see how it would become a right, since at that point the distinction is irrelevant. I do agree that it would be a freedom.

So if you would define a right as a legal guarantee, would you not consider a law against speech as a restriction of rights? And if you saw such law as a restriction of rights, from what base do you consider a right?
 
To me, what you are talking about are not rights. They are desires or values. I desire to speak about whatever I want. Doesn't mean I can. My values say that I can speak about whatever I want. But if the society in which I live has different values, I do not have the right to act on that desire or value. A "right" is something that is permitted or allowed. There is nothing inalienable about them. They are relative based on a society, just as those individual desires or values are based on and individual... or society.

And the natural rights position is more of a libertarian position.

Desires and values do determine rights within a society or government. Basically, it determines which ones should be protected, and which should be restricted.

Values and desires have nothing to do with freedoms. It deals purely with ideas.

A "right" is something that is permitted or allowed.

This in no way conflicts with what I claimed about rights. If anything, it supports it.

If society and government ceased to exist what would we be permitted or allowed to do? Only from there can we determine what our values and desires are, and only from that can we determine what our rights should be as a society. Society does not create permission or allowance, it only determines what should be so.
 
So if you would define a right as a legal guarantee, would you not consider a law against speech as a restriction of rights? And if you saw such law as a restriction of rights, from what base do you consider a right?

I would consider it a restriction of freedoms. However, I may or may not care depending on how much I valued that freedom. In the case of speech, I greatly value it, so I would probably find it immoral. However morals and desires aren't rights, so I may or may not be successful in my effort to change society into a form I consider best.

The base is rights is law.
 
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Desires and values do determine rights within a society or government. Basically, it determines which ones should be protected, and which should be restricted.

This supports my position. The society determines what desires and values BECOME rights. The rights are not inalienable. They are given by the society.

Values and desires have nothing to do with freedoms. It deals purely with ideas.

As an idea, your freedoms depend on what the society allows.

This in no way conflicts with what I claimed about rights. If anything, it supports it.

If society and government ceased to exist what would we be permitted or allowed to do? Only from there can we determine what our values and desires are, and only from that can we determine what our rights should be as a society. Society does not create permission or allowance, it only determines what should be so.

If society or government ceased to exist, we would EACH do what our INDIVIDUAL desires and values dictated. Since this is relative to the individual and can vary between individuals, these desires and values are not universal. Once a society would be created, that society would determine which of these desires and values would become rights. Those that did not could remain desires or values, but would NOT be rights.
 
I have asked this question MANY times of those who believe in natural rights and have never gotten an answer. How would YOU define rights?

You never got an answer? You sure about that?
 
This supports my position. The society determines what desires and values BECOME rights. The rights are not inalienable. They are given by the society.

Not exactly supportive of your statement. The way I see it rights pre-exist a society. A society, or government determines which they value, and which they need to restrict under the concept of civility. I maintain the same concept of rights as you do only after the creation of a society, only before it do we differ on opinion.



As an idea, your freedoms depend on what the society allows.

This is only true once a society exists. Your freedoms are limitless before that.


If society or government ceased to exist, we would EACH do what our INDIVIDUAL desires and values dictated. Since this is relative to the individual and can vary between individuals, these desires and values are not universal. Once a society would be created, that society would determine which of these desires and values would become rights. Those that did not could remain desires or values, but would NOT be rights.[/QUOTE]

So under your reasoning would you claim that the first amendment creates the right to free speech?
 
Jray573 said:
I like how Thomas Paine broke it down in "Rights of Man." How at creation, or at man's beginning, however you want to look at it, man was completely unrestricted. Do you disagree with that? Also, how would this limitless freedom be considered different from rights? If you think it differs, I would love an explanation. Perhaps in this is where the confusion between our two lines of thinking lies.

Any man, living alone, is completely unrestricted even today. Once you start to add other people, their "rights" become limited inherently, there are things they cannot do as part of a society, regardless of size. Your rights are restricted even if there's only one other person you interact with.

The point is, you're using the term "rights" indistinguishably from "ability". I have the ability to do "X", that doesn't mean I have the right to do "X". As I said to someone else, if I go to my favorite restaurant and they're out of prime rib, should I complain because I had a "right" to have prime rib? There are many different things being talked about here. First, you have the ability to do something, which is always controlled in any societal situation. I have the ability to murder others, I could pick up a brick and smash the head of the person next to me if I really wanted to. However, because of social custom, I do not have the right to do that, in fact I'll be severely punished for doing it or even making the attempt whether or not it succeeds. Rights are those things which society has agreed everyone ought to be able to do with or without specific restrictions. You have, at least in the United States, the right to free speech, but that right is not unlimited. There are lots of things that you are not free to say, like it or not. That's true of every single right set forth in the founding documents.

The second you put yourself into a social context, you voluntarily give up some of the things you are capable of doing. Don't like it? Go find yourself a nice deserted island somewhere. Then you can have all the "rights" you want to give yourself.

Personally, I'm not interested in what Thomas Paine had to say, I'm not debating Thomas Paine. I care about what *YOU* have to say and how *YOU* justify your beliefs. Appealing to authority doesn't mean jack squat.

Yeah, I agree 100% with this statement. Which is why I claim that civilization restricts and protects the rights they desire. All laws restrict freedom, society chooses which rights should be protected, and which should be restricted. Libertarians tend to believe that rights should be extended to the greatest extent that allows the rights of others to be protected. So if what you are doing doesn't hurt someone else, you should have the right to do so.

But it doesn't "restrict and protect the rights they desire", it "creates and grants the rights they desire". You are asserting that the rights exist separate from the society. I am saying that the society itself generates these rights and absent society, rights don't have any objective meaning.

Yeah, wow, I don't even know how to respond to this. I think I provided enough perspective that we don't need to resort to insult, but feel free to debate as you like. I don't believe that I stated anything was true because it was true.

Whether you personally have or not doesn't change the fact that lots of people, including in this very thread, have done so. They still cannot answer where these claimed "rights" come from and how they were objectively discovered. It's just not a question that they want to answer, outside of the idea that it supports their preconceived conclusion, this it must be true. But that's backwards thinking, it's not making a logical case that leads to a conclusion, it's taking a conclusion and finding evidence or claims that support it. That's just not a credible case that can be made.
 
Not exactly supportive of your statement. The way I see it rights pre-exist a society. A society, or government determines which they value, and which they need to restrict under the concept of civility. I maintain the same concept of rights as you do only after the creation of a society, only before it do we differ on opinion.

This is only true once a society exists. Your freedoms are limitless before that.

So under your reasoning would you claim that the first amendment creates the right to free speech?

I find it interesting that you seem to use the words freedoms and rights interchangeably.
 
Any man, living alone, is completely unrestricted even today. Once you start to add other people, their "rights" become limited inherently, there are things they cannot do as part of a society, regardless of size. Your rights are restricted even if there's only one other person you interact with.

I agree 100%

The point is, you're using the term "rights" indistinguishably from "ability". I have the ability to do "X", that doesn't mean I have the right to do "X". As I said to someone else, if I go to my favorite restaurant and they're out of prime rib, should I complain because I had a "right" to have prime rib? There are many different things being talked about here. First, you have the ability to do something, which is always controlled in any societal situation. I have the ability to murder others, I could pick up a brick and smash the head of the person next to me if I really wanted to. However, because of social custom, I do not have the right to do that, in fact I'll be severely punished for doing it or even making the attempt whether or not it succeeds.


No, ability doesn't determine rights. I have the right to walk, even if I lack the ability.

I don't really understand the point behind the prime rib comment. You do have a right to prime rib, but with that comes a responsibility of finding it. If they are unable to provide you that prime rib it doesn't restrict your right. In restricts their ability to provide it.

Right, the concept of civilization is founded on ideas like your point with murder. That's what makes Libertarians different than anarchists. Reasonable people don't believe rights should be limitless, and we prefer a society that would restrict the right of life to others.

Rights are those things which society has agreed everyone ought to be able to do with or without specific restrictions. You have, at least in the United States, the right to free speech, but that right is not unlimited. There are lots of things that you are not free to say, like it or not. That's true of every single right set forth in the founding documents.

Right, post society that is correct. Society does determine which rights you should, or should not have. We seriously aren't going to disagree on this aspect of rights, though we may disagree on which rights should be granted or restricted.

The second you put yourself into a social context, you voluntarily give up some of the things you are capable of doing. Don't like it? Go find yourself a nice deserted island somewhere. Then you can have all the "rights" you want to give yourself.

Agree 100%

Personally, I'm not interested in what Thomas Paine had to say, I'm not debating Thomas Paine. I care about what *YOU* have to say and how *YOU* justify your beliefs. Appealing to authority doesn't mean jack squat.

Thanks for caring, I just tend to think he said it better than I am capable of. I thought his description was fascinating, and because it was a leftist on a debate forum that introduced me to him and the site named after him I made the mistake of thinking he was a respectable source for the left. I don't see him as an authority, just an excellent writer.

But it doesn't "restrict and protect the rights they desire", it "creates and grants the rights they desire". You are asserting that the rights exist separate from the society. I am saying that the society itself generates these rights and absent society, rights don't have any objective meaning.

Right, we understand where each of us are coming from. I would also agree that rights would lack objective meaning without society. Since typically a right is useless without the ability to protect them.


Whether you personally have or not doesn't change the fact that lots of people, including in this very thread, have done so. They still cannot answer where these claimed "rights" come from and how they were objectively discovered. It's just not a question that they want to answer, outside of the idea that it supports their preconceived conclusion, this it must be true. But that's backwards thinking, it's not making a logical case that leads to a conclusion, it's taking a conclusion and finding evidence or claims that support it. That's just not a credible case that can be made.

That's a bit of a strawman. Where do trees come from originally? Nature, regardless of how it's created is as old as time. Rights would have been created at the same time as the first creature. Morality would be created at the same time as the first creature with a conscious. Whatever the motive was for the first society would determine how others would like to live together. Which rights they should and should not have.

The only difference in our thinking is when rights were created. You think each individual society or government creates it. And I guess I just don't understand what the big deal is. I'm guessing it's important, but what impact does your difference in opinion of rights have that is different from mine? Because at the end of the day when you factor in society we both agree that they determine what is and isn't right, and from there they determine what should and should not be allowed. At the creation of society our debate becomes almost pointless.
 
I find it interesting that you seem to use the words freedoms and rights interchangeably.

Not exactly, though they are closely related. If you restrict a freedom you take away rights. I'm pretty sure you would agree on that though. From what I see the debate is based around origin and validity.
 
Not exactly, though they are closely related. If you restrict a freedom you take away rights. I'm pretty sure you would agree on that though. From what I see the debate is based around origin and validity.

Cool. I was making a stab in the dark to see if that was the basis for your concept.
 
You never got an answer? You sure about that?

Not that I recall in regards to a definition of rights. It's possible I might have forgotten if it occurred on another thread recently. As of late, natural rights has been a popular topic at DP, and I've been involved in several threads about it.
 
Not exactly supportive of your statement. The way I see it rights pre-exist a society. A society, or government determines which they value, and which they need to restrict under the concept of civility. I maintain the same concept of rights as you do only after the creation of a society, only before it do we differ on opinion.

Prior to societal formation, one only has their desires, instincts and values. Since they are individual, each person models their behavior after their own set of rules. Once a society is formed, that society will determine what behaviors will be rights or not... and that society will decide if they can be taken away or not. It doesn't change what someone may want, but what they can DO is determined by societal rules. It is what a person can DO that I would define as "rights". And this is solely governed by society or government.





This is only true once a society exists. Your freedoms are limitless before that.

Your desires are limitless.


So under your reasoning would you claim that the first amendment creates the right to free speech?

Yes. Without the First Amendment, if so enacted, one could receive consequences for saying the word, "pork" or for discussing the concept of evolution.
 
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Jray573 said:
No, ability doesn't determine rights. I have the right to walk, even if I lack the ability.

See, that's where the whole concept of "rights" as you're using it becomes absurd. It's like saying you have the right to breathe underwater or flap your arms and fly, even if you lack the ability. Should you have the right to leap buildings with a single bound like Superman? At this point, the whole point of "rights" becomes diluted to the point of absurdity. What's the point of rights at all?

I don't really understand the point behind the prime rib comment. You do have a right to prime rib, but with that comes a responsibility of finding it. If they are unable to provide you that prime rib it doesn't restrict your right. In restricts their ability to provide it.

But it restricts my "right" to find it in their particular establishment which was the point. Rights, defined as you seem to be doing it, are pointless and meaningless. The whole concept that you have a "right" to eat prime rib if you happen to find it is as absurd as saying you have the "right" to fly if you happen to grow wings. Great, but so long as those things don't happen, your "right" is utterly worthless.

Right, the concept of civilization is founded on ideas like your point with murder. That's what makes Libertarians different than anarchists. Reasonable people don't believe rights should be limitless, and we prefer a society that would restrict the right of life to others.

Reasonable people would come at a concept logically and rationally. The whole idea that rights are something that everyone has and cannot be taken away, except that they can be and are routinely taken away by society, really does away with the whole concept of rights to begin with. It just doesn't make any rational sense, any more than saying that we have a right to fly, but reality has restricted our right to fly.

Thanks for caring, I just tend to think he said it better than I am capable of. I thought his description was fascinating, and because it was a leftist on a debate forum that introduced me to him and the site named after him I made the mistake of thinking he was a respectable source for the left. I don't see him as an authority, just an excellent writer.

That's fine and I agree, I've read him, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a debate forum, not a literary reading club. Ideas are debated based on what the individual debaters can do, not on what books they can suggest.

Since typically a right is useless without the ability to protect them.

The right wouldn't exist in the first place without the society itself putting forward the effort to protect them, yes. But that's at the core of the question, do the rights come from society itself as I assert, or from another source, as other libertarians assert. We both seem to agree on the former. For those who assert the latter, I ask them to back it up.

Where do trees come from originally? Nature, regardless of how it's created is as old as time.

I agree, but that's because it's demonstrably true that trees actually exist and actually come from "nature". The same is not demonstrably true of "rights" which are nothing more than a philosophical construct, played out in social situations.

Rights would have been created at the same time as the first creature.

Says who? It's an assertion without a shred of support.

Morality would be created at the same time as the first creature with a conscious.

Says who? Again, another unsupported assertion.

The only difference in our thinking is when rights were created. You think each individual society or government creates it. And I guess I just don't understand what the big deal is.

It's a big deal when people assert that they have the "official list" of rights and therefore, it ought to apply to everyone, everywhere and those who do not stack up to their "official list" are judged to be somehow in error. It's a difference between the obvious subjective rights and morality that we see every day and claiming that there is some unseen, non-demonstrable authoratative version of rights and morality that everyone ought to be held accountable to, even though nobody can back up what this list is or where it actually comes from.
 
Prior to societal formation, one only has their desires, instincts and values. Since they are individual, each person models their behavior after their own set of rules. Once a society is formed, that society will determine what behaviors will be rights or not... and that society will decide if they can be taken away or not. It doesn't change what someone may want, but what they can DO is determined by societal rules. It is what a person can DO that I would define as "rights". And this is solely governed by society or government.


Your desires are limitless.

Yes. Without the First Amendment, if so enacted, one could receive consequences for saying the word, "pork" or for discussing the concept of evolution.

So can we agree to disagree? Or is their some major significance to our difference of opinions? I hold what I view as natural as also sacred. I believe the concept of liberty should be considered at least as sacred as our country's forefathers believed, and that it should be held to a higher model than the will of a present society. Beyond that, I see very little significance to this debate. If for some reason you believe there is a great significance to the debate I would love to debate that angle. If you think I'm the idiot Cephus does simply for holding a different opinion than his own then I will also entertain you for awhile. I just don't see it. I don't believe society creates anything, I believe they agree on concepts of ideals and morality to determine what would best fit their desires.
 
See, that's where the whole concept of "rights" as you're using it becomes absurd. It's like saying you have the right to breathe underwater or flap your arms and fly, even if you lack the ability. Should you have the right to leap buildings with a single bound like Superman? At this point, the whole point of "rights" becomes diluted to the point of absurdity. What's the point of rights at all?

Right, I like your direction with this. However, if you are born in the US without the ability to speak do you also lose your right to it? My point is simply that ability is not a limiter of rights.


But it restricts my "right" to find it in their particular establishment which was the point. Rights, defined as you seem to be doing it, are pointless and meaningless. The whole concept that you have a "right" to eat prime rib if you happen to find it is as absurd as saying you have the "right" to fly if you happen to grow wings. Great, but so long as those things don't happen, your "right" is utterly worthless.

You are speaking from an angle of entitlement, which is not a realistic factor of rights either. You have the right to eat prime rib, and a restaurant has the right to not serve it. At the end of the day we have to live in this world together, and when you involve others you stand at the mercy of their rights as well.

Reasonable people would come at a concept logically and rationally. The whole idea that rights are something that everyone has and cannot be taken away, except that they can be and are routinely taken away by society, really does away with the whole concept of rights to begin with. It just doesn't make any rational sense, any more than saying that we have a right to fly, but reality has restricted our right to fly.

Sometimes I wonder why I'm not more picky about who I debate with. I suppose I feel that all of my thoughts should be subject to even the oddest of critics, and I find narcissism from others amusing. Especially since it is one I tend to suffer from. The difference is that while I also find my thoughts superior to others, I can accept a difference of opinion as reasonable. The lack of reason comes from the inability to even attempt at seeing where another person is coming from. Your angle isn't honest to an intellectual debate.

A society determines which rights should be protected, and which ones should be restricted in an attempt to create a civil environment. A government provides the protection necessary to defend those rights.

That's fine and I agree, I've read him, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a debate forum, not a literary reading club. Ideas are debated based on what the individual debaters can do, not on what books they can suggest.

Hey man, I live under a philosophy repeated by Newton in that if I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants. If that leaves me inferior to you then I'm sorry, but the thousands of years it's taken to develop our science and philosophy leaves me believing that going at it alone is far inferior than understanding the concepts of the geniuses before me.

The right wouldn't exist in the first place without the society itself putting forward the effort to protect them, yes. But that's at the core of the question, do the rights come from society itself as I assert, or from another source, as other libertarians assert. We both seem to agree on the former. For those who assert the latter, I ask them to back it up.

I only agree that rights are subject to society. I disagree that society is a creator of anything. The society itself is at the mercy of philosophy and ideals before them. History will always influence to ideas of others.

I agree, but that's because it's demonstrably true that trees actually exist and actually come from "nature". The same is not demonstrably true of "rights" which are nothing more than a philosophical construct, played out in social situations.

Yes, now imagine the honesty in an attempt at debate if I were to suggest that you prove that the origin of a tree was natural, and called you illogical or unreasonable because you couldn't provide the evidence.

Says who? It's an assertion without a shred of support.

Says who? Again, another unsupported assertion.

It's a big deal when people assert that they have the "official list" of rights and therefore, it ought to apply to everyone, everywhere and those who do not stack up to their "official list" are judged to be somehow in error. It's a difference between the obvious subjective rights and morality that we see every day and claiming that there is some unseen, non-demonstrable authoratative version of rights and morality that everyone ought to be held accountable to, even though nobody can back up what this list is or where it actually comes from.

Says me, I thought you wanted my opinions. Are you asking for references now? I can debate by your rules, but it would be nice if you remained consistent.

I don't claim to have an official list of rights, I have a set of ideals that I hold sacred in what's right or wrong. From there I determine what it is that I believe a person's rights should or should not be. The majority of rights are subject to morality. What I believe to be moral is liberty, and believe it should be preserved at the maximum level while still protecting the rights of others. These are my societal goals for rights, and with my understanding of rights means that I understand you come with your own, and for us to belong in the same society we have to agree on a set of ideals. I am not at all under the misconception that it is my right to set the ideals of society, as you seem to want to argue with your prime rib example.
 
So can we agree to disagree? Or is their some major significance to our difference of opinions? I hold what I view as natural as also sacred. I believe the concept of liberty should be considered at least as sacred as our country's forefathers believed, and that it should be held to a higher model than the will of a present society. Beyond that, I see very little significance to this debate. If for some reason you believe there is a great significance to the debate I would love to debate that angle. If you think I'm the idiot Cephus does simply for holding a different opinion than his own then I will also entertain you for awhile. I just don't see it. I don't believe society creates anything, I believe they agree on concepts of ideals and morality to determine what would best fit their desires.

To me, this is a basic difference in one's personal philosophy. I am fine with agreeing to disagree. You have been civil and debated this topic reasonably. Is this topic of any great significance? Is any? I like debating the topic. It's a good philosophical debate. The only significance I see with it is when some folks use it to be inflexible. Other than that, just something interesting. I'd be happy to debate it with you... or to just agree to disagree.
 
To me, this is a basic difference in one's personal philosophy. I am fine with agreeing to disagree. You have been civil and debated this topic reasonably. Is this topic of any great significance? Is any? I like debating the topic. It's a good philosophical debate. The only significance I see with it is when some folks use it to be inflexible. Other than that, just something interesting. I'd be happy to debate it with you... or to just agree to disagree.

I'm not opposed to debate, but after debating multiple people who seemed to be very passionate about the subject, I realized the debate at hand seemed very insignificant. Maybe it's the stuff going on in my personal life right now, but I really don't think so. From where I stand it shouldn't matter. From what I've found here is what I believe we can all agree on.

Originally we were entirely free. While this may sound great, it also leaves us vulnerable.

In an effort to seek out protection and live amongst others we learn of morality, and try to create a system of right and wrong. This would be a society in it's most simplistic form.

To maximize our protection we resort to government.

So here is how it comes back to the nature of rights. An effort to embrace our most natural state. Within a society this has to be sacrificed, and most willing to live in such an environment would agree that cuts need to be made. We have to acknowledge the others around us, though we still prefer the maximum amount of freedoms available while maintaining the rights of others. This is why we have statements that claim inalienable rights such as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

So ultimately the debate of rights within a society shouldn't be inflexible, but the model of our most ancient self is. It's held onto as an ideal to show a reference of where our society is under the scope of liberty. To keep it subjective only to the current rulers leaves us uneducated of potential. If we find ourselves sacrificing massive amounts of liberty we can raise a flag and change direction.

So I don't know who debates it as inflexible, unless of course you are talking of the ideal, but I would be surprised if you disagreed with any of this statement. And I would love to be a part of a debate that deals strictly with the real subject at hand. Agreeing on a definition seems meaningless.
 
"In the true Natural World, that few actually live in. All there are, are rights. A truly Free individual does exactly what he pleases, and exactly when He pleases to do it. He has no concern for the status qua, nor popular opinion. He is is own King, and will live free till long after he is dead." From, "the Drunk at the end of the Bar"
 
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OK but where did the right come from? Who gave us rights in the first place? I don't understand if they cannot be given or taken away, why do they even matter?

Good question, BD. And I hope to answer it adequately, but first, I must state that the following is purely a self-derived philosophy, and as such, cannot be classified as anything more than my opinion on the matter.

In my way of viewing things, rights are a natural ability to engage one's own will in order to pursue a specific behavior and/or goal.

For example: One has a natural right to imbibe intoxicants, seek a mate, or even kill another human being. Other rights include the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness as described by Jefferson in the DoI.

These rights are natural, and cannot actually be removed from a living being, as they are determined by the individual's will. They are not "granted" by anyone in particular, they merely exist.

The reason they matter is because the entire purpose of society is to add consequences to the pursuit of certain rights. The society dictates which rights are moral and can be pursued without consequence, and which one's are immoral and cannot be pursued without consequence.

This, IMO, is a product of humanity being a social creature, and the evolutionary benefits of morality are such that a shared morality in an intelligent social creature increases the overall likelihood that the species will survive as well as the likelihood that people within a social group will pass on their genes (or have those who have similar genetic structures, such as relatives, pass on theirs).

So, essentially humans are pre-wired to develop morality, and these moral concepts should be shared by the group in order to increase the evolutionary benefits of that morality.

This means that individuals who do not display the same moral inclinations they receive consequences for this non-conformity, such as removal from the group (which I theorize is the rudimentary foundation for laws as they would be found in a tribal society). This can only be determined by the actions a person performs, so when someone engages in a right that has been deemed immoral by the group, they receive consequences of some sort.

The group cannot take away the ability from the individual, but they can add consequences to their behavior. As the size of the groups increased when we became an agricultural creature, the informal rules became more formalized and society was formed, primarily existing to define these moral rules that differentiate people within the group form those outside the group.

Unfortunately, since all laws exist to add consequences to the exercise of a right, they naturally act as a sort of "deterrent" to the exercise of certain rights.

The reason we need to consider the way that rights work is so that we can define the parameters we use to add consequences to the exercise of certain rights. Every society does this, but for a society that has a shared morality where a maximization of personal freedom is considered a positive, the parameters are such that they specifically limit the addition of consequences to the exercise of those rights that can only be exercised in a fashion that have a negative effects on other people within that society.

For example: while making a law against murder cannot stop someone form exercising that right, it will add consequences for the purpose of trying to deter people from exercising that right.

Adding consequences to the exercise of certain rights is beneficial to the society as a whole, but adding consequences to other rights can have a detrimental affect on the society as a whole.

The unimpeded rights of a society should reflect the shared morality of that society to prevent discord within that society.

This works in two directions. When the exercise of a right is believed to deserve consequences, but doesn't, people become unhappy with the fact that it doesn't receive consequences. Conversely, if the exercise of a right receives consequences, when the people believe it shouldn't, they will become unhappy as well.

Since there exists a high degree of variation about which rights should receive consequences (which directly correlates to the variation of morality within that society), the only rights that should be universally receive or not receive consequences are those rights that are universally agreed upon at a moral level by the society as a whole. The addition or exclusion of consequences for any other rights should become as localized as possible to encompass only those who conform to the moralistic basis for the consequences and/or lack of consequences for certain rights.

This is the foundational philosophy to my anti-federalist views, and it is what I feel is the basis for our governmental system (where the bill of rights acts as a limitation on the federal government's ability to add consequences to rights, while allowing the states and local governments to be able to add consequences at their choice and in reflection of the moral beliefs within that small region.

Thus, for my personal philosophy, they are of the utmost importance. Ironically, I'm one of the few people I know who approaches the issue from a pure view of moral relativism.

I view the ability to add consequences to the exercise of right as a shared right of it's own. I feel that all legislation is, at it's most basic level, legislating morality. Thus, I feel that it should, in all cases, reflect the shared morality of those who are directly effected by it.

I hope that answers all of your questions. As I said, this is a personal philosophy. It's entirely based on my opinions and my own logical deductions.
 
Jray573 said:
Right, I like your direction with this. However, if you are born in the US without the ability to speak do you also lose your right to it? My point is simply that ability is not a limiter of rights.

Freedom of speech goes beyond vocalization. Doing what we're doing right now falls under freedom of speech. However, let's assume for a moment that you're talking about someone who is a head in a jar, who cannot talk, who cannot write, who cannot communicate with the outside world in any way, shape or form. The concept of a "freedom of speech" becomes entirely irrelevant for said individual. It means nothing. A "right" that you cannot exercise is entirely empty and other than academically, what's the point of it in the first place?

You are speaking from an angle of entitlement, which is not a realistic factor of rights either. You have the right to eat prime rib, and a restaurant has the right to not serve it. At the end of the day we have to live in this world together, and when you involve others you stand at the mercy of their rights as well.

I am speaking from an angle of applicability. If I have the "right" to fly naturally, but nothing I can do will actually gain me the ability to grow wings, then what's the point of the right? Where is the application? Why claim I have the right at all if it's inherently impossible to actually practice said right? You can't go sue the owners of a tall building because they won't let you go to the top and jump off so you can fly, that's absurd. Why even bother talking about rights that have no application?

Sometimes I wonder why I'm not more picky about who I debate with.

Uncomfortable when people point out your unjustified assertions, huh?

A society determines which rights should be protected, and which ones should be restricted in an attempt to create a civil environment. A government provides the protection necessary to defend those rights.

Then in practice, a society determines which rights you have, period. That takes us back to step one. You still have not justified why you think rights exist outside of society at all, you've just functionally acknowledged what I've said all along. You're just holding onto the nebulous idea that there are these rights that are just floating around in the ether somewhere, you don't know how they got there, you don't know why they exist, you don't know under what authority they matter or now you've actually determined their existence or their qualifications, you just think they're there and nothing anyone says will change your mind.

Sorry, that's not rational, that's faith. Worse, it's entirely blind faith, based on nothing more than wishful thinking. You want it to be true, therefore you're just demanding that it's true without justifying that statement with anything approaching evidence or critical thinking. Ultmately, because you want this to be true, you're just asserting it into existence because it helps your overall worldview. You haven't demonstrated that your overall worldview is credible in the least.

I think that's why the specific questions I ask of libertarians go entirely unanswered, because they can't answer them so they don't even try. It all becomes very vague and "I know because I know" nonsense. Just because you want something to be true doesn't make it true. You have to be able to actually defend your claims.

Hey man, I live under a philosophy repeated by Newton in that if I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants. If that leaves me inferior to you then I'm sorry, but the thousands of years it's taken to develop our science and philosophy leaves me believing that going at it alone is far inferior than understanding the concepts of the geniuses before me.

Newton was speaking in regard to human knowledge, how each new generation builds upon the knowledge gained by previous generations, but what you're actually making are unsupported claims, not based on anything but previous unsupported claims. No one has yet demonstrated that any of your claims have any rational validity to them whatsoever. This has nothing to do with inferiority, it has to do with the ability to take a claim, disassemble it to it's compontent parts and examine each part to see if it's valid. Unfortunately, you're doing exactly what the religious do, you're starting with a conclusion that appeals to you, then working backward, desperately trying to find elements that support your preconceived conclusion. Ikari is particularly blatant about it, he says openly that natural rights must exist because his conclusion requires that they do. Well here's a novel idea, maybe the conclusion is wrong because there's no evidence for the natural rights actually existing in the first place!

Yes, now imagine the honesty in an attempt at debate if I were to suggest that you prove that the origin of a tree was natural, and called you illogical or unreasonable because you couldn't provide the evidence.

It could be done very easily. Trees grow in natural forests all the time. We can also go back through the fossil record and find evidence of tree evolution, from the earliest proto-plants to modern-day redwoods. That's not even a challenge. Now let's see you do the same thing, go find "rights" that exist in nature, outside of man. Find how these supposed rights originated. Where did they come from? How can you differentiate what is an actual right and what is not? These are questions you people have dodged since day one.

I don't claim to have an official list of rights, I have a set of ideals that I hold sacred in what's right or wrong.

Then you're already admitting that your idea of rights is entirely subjective. As such, you're also admitting that everyone can come up with their own list of subjective rights. So why do you think your list of subjective rights is objectively better than anyone else's? Certainly you act like yours is the only list that matters and everyone ought to be following it to the exclusion of all others. Is that rational? I don't think so.

I am not at all under the misconception that it is my right to set the ideals of society, as you seem to want to argue with your prime rib example.

Of course you are. You assert that your subjective list of rights exist for everyone and anyone not getting your subjective list of rights is somehow having their rights taken away. You haven't demonstrated that your list of rights are true, accurate, applicable across social or cultural lines, etc. What makes your set of rights any demonstrably better than Hitler's set of rights, or Joe Blow, of Madison, Wisconsin's set of rights? The fact is, you've got an opinion, you want your opinion to be true but instead of actually defending your opinion through rational debate and well-reasoned examination, you've just claimed that somehow, your claims are valid because you think they are.

It's as absurd as claiming that blue is everyone's favorite color, just because it happens to be yours.
 
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