• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Where did the Universe come from?

Where did the Universe come from?


  • Total voters
    82
Look, don't treat me like this! ;-) Matter is only energy in a bound state. They are the same. However, you can't have matter that is not energy, while you can have energy that is not matter. Therefore, matter is subordinate to energy.

There is no such unit in physics as matter.

You cannot have anything without motion, neither energy, no mass.
 
i was under the impression c was the speed of light

Indeed, but speed is expressed in terms of space and time, eg. 300.000 km per second...
 
No option for other?

I don't think the universe was ever created.
 
No option for other?

I don't think the universe was ever created.

I think the same. Couldn't it just have always "been"? Why must it have been 'created'?

None of the poll choices even closely match what I believe, so I am voting "other''.
 
So why do you believe god/universe is intelligent?
What reason do you have to believe so?
Or is it just blind belief or what you "feel" is true?

I didn't mean to say that if I did. I don't know if God is intelligent, or possesses intelligence as we understand it. It may, It may not. What my faith does tell me is that every man must strive to reach goodness/godliness/holiness. And this is the purpose the major religious traditions serve. To assist man in rising above his self-centered nature in order to benefit community or society. Unfortunately, religious people naturally fail, and many non-religious people are eager to point it out.

So, while God as a "intelligent entity" may not actually exist, it is my belief that goodness does exist and it is best if every human can make it a deep part of our lives. I refer to this goodness as God (some also call it Love), and that can confuse most "non-believers".
 
I'm reminded of the South Park episode where God finally revealed himself. Some tiny green lizardy thing. "Well, what did you think I'd look like?"

"I don't know... but not like that!"
 
Don't feel like reading 26 pages...

So, I go with the previously mentioned "Option 7".

I don't know.

As that is what I believe, I cannot say which of the other 6 possible answers is closer to what I believe.

In short, I believe that I do not know where the Universe came from. Or, for that matter, if it even exists at all.

Edit: Or anything, really.
 
Indeed, but speed is expressed in terms of space and time, eg. 300.000 km per second...

You are correct. This is exactly what I said. Are you be surprised that it had to be explained by you to some who thinks that they are educated? Do you think they understood?

I have not been to France. All friends of mine are negative in their experience. But you make me think… – in the US they teach only atheism in schools and colleges. Do they still teach how to count in France? Or it is just somewhere from your family, when France used to be a center of culture?
 
No option for other?

I don't think the universe was ever created.

Sure, it is just your dream. You are dreaming of me too. Actually I am not even typing, I am only in your personal imagination.

I think the same. Couldn't it just have always "been"? Why must it have been 'created'?

None of the poll choices even closely match what I believe, so I am voting "other''.
No option for other?.
The answer is – the OP was written by a very intelligent man. reefedjib provided me with joy to seeing a man who has abilities to think and think independently and quite brilliantly. My original intent was to compliment him, but I was too tired and couldn’t get to those few posts which gave the joy of observing human intelligence.

Obviously he did expect a conversation on intelligent level somewhat close to his level. I just wanted to tell him that he should get used to the fact that it will not happen any time when he wants to mention God. One indeed has to have a hell of patience talking to atheists, when atheists do not understand a simple thought, phrase, and sentence. So, he shouldn’t start swearing and coursing.I know it takes a hell of patience, but I for instance remind to myself that I also used to be an atheist when my mind and intellect was not developed.

Obviously he did not think about including option which could come to minds of people with undeveloped intellect and infant comprehension of reality. He covered all even slightly reasonable options.
.
I think the same. Couldn't it just have always "been"?
This exactly what my dog thinks and comprehends about reality around him.
Why did the author of OP have to count in this level of comprehension of reality?


Let me ask you a simple question. If you think that the universe… I wouldn’t even ask you to explain how one can think so… let’s say it always has been, - then who made it start heading to the end, to death, non-existence all over suddenly?
 
Don't feel like reading 26 pages....



I would say that you have missed some of most brilliant an deep thoughts expressed on DP, I should take time and find them again, but the fact is that atheists did not comprehend them anyway and made reefedjib loose his patience. I just wanted to comment that he shouldn’t expect atheists to comprehend most simple sentences, to answer most simple questions. I wanted to tell him that I enjoyed, appreciated and learned . He should learn not to let atheists to bring him back to clichés and standard thinking. It does not matter, he or she or it at the moment, there is no need to get involved into sidetracks. He should learn that scourge only wants to exhaust one’s patience. Also when he goes into non-Christian BS – energy, matter etc, he looses brilliance and follows BS, I just wanted to remind him that his Hindu beliefs contradict physics, go against physics, in all of all who did make physics- Christians or Hindu? He actually showed a natural thinking of a physicist, of Newton and Einstein type. I enjoyed and learned. Then he lost to Hindu…

So, I go with the previously mentioned "Option 7".

I don't know.

As that is what I believe, I cannot say which of the other 6 possible answers is closer to what I believe.

In short, I believe that I do not know where the Universe came from. Or, for that matter, if it even exists at all.

Edit: Or anything, really.
Anyway, I like when atheists think that they need to show up on a debate and make this intellectual statement – ‘’I don’t care’’. What a misery.
 
I would say that you have missed some of most brilliant an deep thoughts expressed on DP, I should take time and find them again, but the fact is that atheists did not comprehend them anyway and made reefedjib loose his patience. I just wanted to comment that he shouldn’t expect atheists to comprehend most simple sentences, to answer most simple questions. I wanted to tell him that I enjoyed, appreciated and learned . He should learn not to let atheists to bring him back to clichés and standard thinking. It does not matter, he or she or it at the moment, there is no need to get involved into sidetracks. He should learn that scourge only wants to exhaust one’s patience. Also when he goes into non-Christian BS – energy, matter etc, he looses brilliance and follows BS, I just wanted to remind him that his Hindu beliefs contradict physics, go against physics, in all of all who did make physics- Christians or Hindu? He actually showed a natural thinking of a physicist, of Newton and Einstein type. I enjoyed and learned. Then he lost to Hindu…

Anyway, I like when atheists think that they need to show up on a debate and make this intellectual statement – ‘’I don’t care’’. What a misery.
I'm not an atheist.

I think the closest would be agnostic.

I don't know, and know I probably can't know something unknowable, but I can't bring myself to commit to something I don't know, even though I know I can't know anything.

Is that clearer?

I was brought up Christian, so don't know if it is lingering "indoctrination" or my own thoughts (or a combination of the two) that bring me to the position of believing that a god of some sort may exist, but not knowing, and thus...being stuck somewhere in the middle.
 
I would say that you have missed some of most brilliant an deep thoughts expressed on DP, I should take time and find them again, but the fact is that atheists did not comprehend them anyway and made reefedjib loose his patience.

You are aware that the Oscars are over and you didn't win any prizes for lamest comedy, aren't you?

Let me ask you a simple question. If you think that the universe… I wouldn’t even ask you to explain how one can think so… let’s say it always has been, - then who made it start heading to the end, to death, non-existence all over suddenly?

See, if you had the ability to understand the arguments, and because you have "religion", you can't understand them, you wouldn't have been able to make the above blisteringly ignorant response after reading twenty six pages of dialogue that put reefedjib in his place. For example, you're confusng the entropic cycle of this observed bubble of space-time with the "universe", either deliberately or ignorantly assuming that our arguments about what Philip Jose Farmer neatly termed the "pluriverse" were directly applicable to the single "universe" that we are able to percieve with our evolved senses.

Since it was clearly pointed out that since this "universe" had a clearly definable origin in time, it must exist as a subset of some other more eternal space and time coordinate frame. The complete lack of evidence of intelligent origin or operation of this observed space we occupy presents no basis for assuming the larger pluriverse has any intelligence driving it's course. Indeed, absolutely nothing is observable about the course, or lack thereof, of the greater space-time continuum of which we theorize must exist.

To presume that greater space-time has an intelligent aspect is merest hubris on your part.

This universe came into existence, it will die, at absolute zero, in the far future. There is no reason to suspect that it has any reason for existing whatsoever. And books written by neolithic sheep herders intent on imbuing their patriarchal societies with their God's Approval don't count as evidence.
 
Last edited:
You are correct. This is exactly what I said. Are you be surprised that it had to be explained by you to some who thinks that they are educated? Do you think they understood?

I have not been to France. All friends of mine are negative in their experience. But you make me think… – in the US they teach only atheism in schools and colleges. Do they still teach how to count in France? Or it is just somewhere from your family, when France used to be a center of culture?

No... Yes...

Yes... No...

PS: Im an atheist by the way:)
 
I always wondered why (for instance) the Christian religion feels threatened by the thought of the Big Bang or Evolution. Couldn't these be a result of actions by God? I believe so. I mean no one REALLY knows how we came into being... not even those who wrote they Testaments in the Bible. They weren't there when Earth was created after all. And history could easily be changed with writing on paper. Why is the bible the final say?

For all we know the people at South Park got it right ("Canceled" episode) :rofl
 

Well "time" would essentially be just a label we have given something right?

Its a damn good question though. The idea of "time" exists because we humans are perceptive beings, if we were not that perceptive or introspective, or what have you, then time would not have been an idea in the first place.

Wait ... what? :2brickwal
 
Sure, it is just your dream. You are dreaming of me too. Actually I am not even typing, I am only in your personal imagination.



The answer is – the OP was written by a very intelligent man. reefedjib provided me with joy to seeing a man who has abilities to think and think independently and quite brilliantly. My original intent was to compliment him, but I was too tired and couldn’t get to those few posts which gave the joy of observing human intelligence.

Obviously he did expect a conversation on intelligent level somewhat close to his level. I just wanted to tell him that he should get used to the fact that it will not happen any time when he wants to mention God. One indeed has to have a hell of patience talking to atheists, when atheists do not understand a simple thought, phrase, and sentence. So, he shouldn’t start swearing and coursing.I know it takes a hell of patience, but I for instance remind to myself that I also used to be an atheist when my mind and intellect was not developed.

Obviously he did not think about including option which could come to minds of people with undeveloped intellect and infant comprehension of reality. He covered all even slightly reasonable options.
.This exactly what my dog thinks and comprehends about reality around him.
Why did the author of OP have to count in this level of comprehension of reality?


Let me ask you a simple question. If you think that the universe… I wouldn’t even ask you to explain how one can think so… let’s say it always has been, - then who made it start heading to the end, to death, non-existence all over suddenly?

In other words - because people here have stated or tried to state their own thoughts on the topic, you feel justified in coming forth and insulting and belittling these people.

So we don't believe as you do, therefore we are stupid and not capable of intelligent thought.

How nice and open minded of you. For being familiar with the OP and stating that he is an intelligent person that would love an intelligent debate, you single handedly killed the topic.

Congratulations on your*own* lack of intelligent contribution - exactly doing what you've accused others here of - at least the rest of us came to the thread with some sort of on-topic relevance.

Love,
An Atheist
 
Last edited:
thats like saying theres no such thing as distance because we use human methods to measure it, or that if every being on earth closed its eyes at the same time, light would not exist.

That isn't what I understood the articles to be saying. My understanding is that these people are theorizing that time is an emergent property rather than a fundamental one. As an example, its theorized that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain as opposed, for example, that a mind can exist independent of the brain.
 
Last edited:
That isn't what I understood the articles to be saying. My understanding is that these people are theorizing that time is an emergent property rather than a fundamental one. As an example, its theorized that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain as opposed, for example, that a mind can exist independent of the brain.

oh yeah, you're right, i misread the article
 
In other words - because people here have stated or tried to state their own thoughts on the topic, you feel justified in coming forth and insulting and belittling these people.

So we don't believe as you do, therefore we are stupid and not capable of intelligent thought.

How nice and open minded of you. For being familiar with the OP and stating that he is an intelligent person that would love an intelligent debate, you single handedly killed the topic.

Congratulations on your*own* lack of intelligent contribution - exactly doing what you've accused others here of - at least the rest of us came to the thread with some sort of on-topic relevance.

Love,
An Atheist
I just asked the most simple question:'' Let me ask you a simple question. If you think that the universe… I wouldn’t even ask you to explain how one can think so… let’s say it always has been, - then who made it start heading to the end, to death, non-existence all over suddenly?''

I just asked the most simple question exactly addressing the OP and your beleif...

And I got some burst, such a burst,.... like you are having a menopause?... or something... hormons...

And of course I got no reply to the simple question. And the fact that I got no reply to the simple question proves each and every word of my post to be true.

And then you call such a burst love?

try this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian_(herb) No kidding. It has been working for milleniums.
 
Last edited:
You are aware that the Oscars are over and you didn't win any prizes for lamest comedy, aren't you?

An attempt of a little personal attack. Atheists. I just commended a poster for the posts I liked, I gave him the Oscar. It is not like I claimed anything for myself, not at all. You just pervert it because atheists pervert everything. Thank you for another demonstration of intellectual perversion of atheists.

See, if you had the ability to understand the arguments, and because you have "religion", you can't understand them, you wouldn't have been able to make the above blisteringly ignorant response after reading twenty six pages of dialogue that put reefedjib in his place.

A little personal insult. Thank you for another demonstration of intellectual misery of atheists.

For example, you're confusng the entropic cycle of this observed bubble of space-time with the "universe", either deliberately or ignorantly assuming that our arguments about what Philip Jose Farmer neatly termed the "pluriverse" were directly applicable to the single "universe" that we are able to percieve with our evolved senses.


As usual atheists never address my words but produce some absurd not even knowing what they are talking about.

What the entropic cycle of what this observed bubble of what space time? And where I did make any statement about all the listed, and how should I comment on you spitting at your own strawmen?

What are you talking about throwing words with no sense, no definition, no application to any reality?

Let me look up Farmer. science fiction and fantasy novels… - are you serious? Well I guess you are. I have proved many time that atheists live by fantasies. How did senses evolve? Oh my, oh my…


Since it was clearly pointed out that since this "universe" had a clearly definable origin in time, it must exist as a subset of some other more eternal space and time coordinate frame.

What is definable origins in time? By what logic, by what observation, by what calculations it must exist as a subset? If it must exist as a subset of some other more eternal space and time coordinate frame, then a subset of some other more eternal space and time coordinate frame must exist as a subset of some other more eternal space and time coordinate frame, and subset of other subset which in its turn is subset of another subset of a subset..

What the hell is ‘more eternal space’’? What the hell is ‘’more eternal time’’? You must be sent to France where they still teach how to count. It is amazing and amusing how people who have never learned how to count jump into a conversation which generally requires even more then ability of simple counting. Please go to France, learn mathematical meanings of more and less, then try again.

The complete lack of evidence of intelligent origin or operation of this observed space we occupy presents no basis for assuming the larger pluriverse has any intelligence driving it's course.

What, what? What is large and what is pluriverse and what is course of the larger pluriverse, and what are boundaries of the ‘’observed space’’ and who are “we” who “occupies’’? Who is assuming what? Why each and every time do atheists come up with some kind of total delirium and I have to try to make out some rational meaning in it? I just pointed to reefedjib that it is a sure way to loose it when you try to make sense out of total nonsense.

Indeed, absolutely nothing is observable about the course, or lack thereof, of the greater space-time continuum of which we theorize must exist.

To presume that greater space-time has an intelligent aspect is merest hubris on your part.

To presume that I ever presumed greater space-time or to presume that I even can see any meaning in such a presumption is merest hubris on your part.

This universe came into existence, it will die, at absolute zero, in the far future.

It is very awkwardly expressed, but OK.

There is no reason to suspect that it has any reason for existing whatsoever.

Did I ever claim that the universe has reason or any ability of reasoning?

There are certain rules. I play by the rules. In these rules all effects have causes and all causes have one or more effects. All things and phenomena in our only universe do. This is the rule. Atheists play with no rules. Anything goes – and they call it science. If the universe came to existence there was a reason for such an effect or speaking correctly there was a cause of such an effect. One has to be mentally retarded to suggest the opposite because we conceive the reality through our senses; and the only fact our senses know is that ‘’in the world of sensible things we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible.’’


RULE II.
Therefore to the same natural effects we must, as far as possible, assign the same causes.
RULE III.
The qualities of bodies, which admit neither intension nor remission of degrees, and which are found to belong to all bodies within the reach of our experiments, are to be esteemed the universal qualities of all bodies whatsoever.

Atheists know no rules, they have no sense of reality.


You see, if the one follows rules of reasoning and if one’s senses are not retarded, a proof that the universe (everything we can sense around us including ourselves) came to existence is a sufficient proof of God.


And books written by neolithic sheep herders intent on imbuing their patriarchal societies with their God's Approval don't count as evidence.

Did reefedjib or for the same matter I ever invoke or refer to books written by neolithic sheep herders in the scientific proof of God? reefedjib is not even a Christian he believes in the same things as you do, that’s why he was destined to loose. He believes in some kind of a startsutra, that’s why he was destined to loose. Yet he made some very good and genius posts. Very elegant. He honestly tried to have a conversation. You just spew hatred at your own strawmen.

neolithic sheep herders created the perfect system of proofs. I don’t know any other system which could even try to reach their level. I would think about Principia quoted above as of the only good resemblance… but it is another subject. So far we have not revoked the Bible and we are on opposite sides of the spectrum, reefedjib is not a Christian when I am, and the fact is that that you're attacking your own strawmen.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom