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Where did the Universe come from?

Where did the Universe come from?

  • From the Big Bang, not sure what was before. God does not exist and was not involved.

    Votes: 33 40.2%

  • Not the Big Bang, but some other physical event. God does not exist and was not involved.

    Votes: 2 2.4%

  • God created the Universe without a Big Bang. Earth was especially created.

    Votes: 2 2.4%

  • God created the Universe with a Big Bang and then the universe evolved.

    Votes: 29 35.4%

  • Some other mechanism created the Universe, without God...

    Votes: 7 8.5%

  • God created the Universe in some other fashion...

    Votes: 9 11.0%
  • Total voters
    82
reefedjib said:
Just because God knows in advance what choices will be made, this does not change the fact the the people make those choices out of freewill.
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Oh my god. That wasn't an explanation. It was an assertion!!! The same one you make over and over again.

Do you not understand the difference between an explanation and an assertion???

I think we are done here reef. You've shown that you do NOT have an explanation. You only have the assertion that freewill can coexist with predetermination. Nothing more.
 
reefedjib said:
Just because God knows in advance what choices will be made, this does not change the fact the the people make those choices out of freewill.
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You mean except for the fact that God built the universe to do exactly what She wanted it to do, your statement that God's advance knowledge doesn't invalidate freewill works just fine.
 
scourge99 said:
Actually there are theories on how something can come from nothing. Virtual particles and the like.
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Virtual particles borrow energy from the universe and give it back through either particle pair annihilation or Hawking radiation.
 
scourge99 said:
Oh my god. That wasn't an explanation. It was an assertion!!! The same one you make over and over again.

Do you not understand the difference between an explanation and an assertion???

I think we are done here reef. You've shown that you do NOT have an explanation. You only have the assertion that freewill can coexist with predetermination. Nothing more.
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I really don't know what you want beyond an assertion that omniscience, creation and freewill are compatible. I've given you an explanation. God has knowledge, creates the universe and still leaves freewill to the people. You claim to have disproven this and you have NOT. See ya later...
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
You mean except for the fact that God built the universe to do exactly what She wanted it to do, your statement that God's advance knowledge doesn't invalidate freewill works just fine.
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Even if She had fine tuned the result to maximize the number of souls liberated, it still would not invalidate that people act with freewill, they make their own choices. I think it is clear that people DO have freewill. The question is reconciling that with an omniscient creator. I have done so through the difference between predetermination and predestination.
 
reefedjib said:
Never wrong. Perfect omniscience. I'll just leave it at Predetermination, not Predestination.
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Never wrong? Have you read the bible AT ALL? :rofl I'll help point out some of it if you're having trouble.
 
reefedjib said:
Even if She had fine tuned the result to maximize the number of souls liberated, it still would not invalidate that people act with freewill, they make their own choices. I think it is clear that people DO have freewill. The question is reconciling that with an omniscient creator. I have done so through the difference between predetermination and predestination.
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Does god or does god not, know what I am going to type next? If god knows, then it's already been determined. If god doesn't know then it is not omniscient.

Omniscience means that I cannot fool god by typing something other than what god knows I am going to type.

As an exercise in learning your religion could you please direct us to the part of the bible that says god is omniscient?
 
NoJingoLingo said:
Never wrong? Have you read the bible AT ALL? :rofl I'll help point out some of it if you're having trouble.
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Not really. I am not a Christian.

NoJingoLingo said:
Does god or does god not, know what I am going to type next? If god knows, then it's already been determined. If god doesn't know then it is not omniscient.
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God knows. Still you use freewill.

Omniscience means that I cannot fool god by typing something other than what god knows I am going to type.
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Correct, but you type it, not God.

As an exercise in learning your religion could you please direct us to the part of the bible that says god is omniscient?
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Again, I am not familiar with the Bible.
 
reefedjib said:
Even if She had fine tuned the result to maximize the number of souls liberated, it still would not invalidate that people act with freewill, they make their own choices. I think it is clear that people DO have freewill. The question is reconciling that with an omniscient creator. I have done so through the difference between predetermination and predestination.
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Hello?

"fine tuned" does not equal "Omniscient". Doesn't even equal "Omnipotent".

It means, too incompetent to do it right, and when you admit your God has the ability to pick and choose among his creatiosn, you're admitting your God doesn't love everyone, which begs the question why anyone would respect It?
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Hello?

"fine tuned" does not equal "Omniscient". Doesn't even equal "Omnipotent".

It means, too incompetent to do it right, and when you admit your God has the ability to pick and choose among his creatiosn, you're admitting your God doesn't love everyone, which begs the question why anyone would respect It?
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What!? You are off your rocker. It doesn't mean any of that. I don't think this fine tuning occured anyway, ignore I brought it up.
 
NoJingoLingo said:
Oh, what god do you believe in then?


It can't be both. You simply don't understand logic.


You simply don't understand logic.


Right, I'm waiting to hear which god you believe in then.
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I believe in a monotheistic God, whether the Abrahamic God or the Vedantic God. I generally follow Advaita Vedanta.
 
I am tired of arguing about this. Good bye.
 
reefedjib said:
What!? You are off your rocker. It doesn't mean any of that. I don't think this fine tuning occured anyway, ignore I brought it up.
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"Fine" tuning is only necessary when the first guess at what the value should be doesn't work.

It means the engineer is poking around in the dark with too many uncontrolled variables.

It's why testing of nuclear weapons is essential to any reliable arsenal.
 
reefedjib said:
Several interesting discussions have led me to do a poll, asking this important question. After voting, leave a comment on how you voted and what led you to think this way.
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You don't have a poll option that applies to what I think...

God didn't so much create the Universe because God is the Universe. This is not to say God has to be some diety as described by the major religions of man. God/Universe is life and the Holiness we should all strive towards. Man has been able to grasp some basic aspects of the Holy, but we get all hung up on details that don't matter to God. So, in many different forms, the Universe always was and always changes or evolves.

I am led to think this way purely on faith because I cannot fathom the vastness that is the Universe (or God).
I live by the addage; God will not punish me for not having Him/It figured out.
 
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Telecaster said:
You don't have a poll option that applies to what I think...

God didn't so much create the Universe because God is the Universe. This is not to say God has to be some diety as described by the major religions of man. God/Universe is life and the Holiness we should all strive towards. Man has been able to grasp some basic aspects of the Holy, but we get all hung up on details that don't matter to God. So, in many different forms, the Universe always was and always changes or evolves.

I am led to think this way purely on faith because I cannot fathom the vastness that is the Universe (or God).
I live by the addage; God will not punish me for not having Him/It figured out.
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So why do you believe god/universe is intelligent?
What reason do you have to believe so?
Or is it just blind belief or what you "feel" is true?
 
reefedjib said:
I believe in a monotheistic God, whether the Abrahamic God or the Vedantic God. I generally follow Advaita Vedanta.
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It sounds like you are searching for some divine truth or wisdom. I have been there too and after having been involved in various Christian cults, Hinduism, Paganism, Buddhism as well as limited exposure to Daoism/Taoism, Totem, Islam... I was toying with deism but now I'm back to atheism. You don't need a religion to be spiritual and you don't need to be spiritual to be happy. You can just meditate for it's benefits and find some internal peace without all the baggage. Good luck on your journey.
 
NoJingoLingo said:
It sounds like you are searching for some divine truth or wisdom. I have been there too and after having been involved in various Christian cults, Hinduism, Paganism, Buddhism as well as limited exposure to Daoism/Taoism, Totem, Islam... I was toying with deism but now I'm back to atheism. You don't need a religion to be spiritual and you don't need to be spiritual to be happy. You can just meditate for it's benefits and find some internal peace without all the baggage. Good luck on your journey.
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I am not really searching anymore. Advaita Vedanta tends to have had the answers to my questions. It is not cultish at all and is very philosophical. One aspect that I like about it is that it recognizes that all other religions or interpretations are also equally valid for the people that practice them. They are all ways of seeing the divine. Of course, Vedanta observes one God, Brahman. I am into it's spirituality and not its church, although there are some Vedanta temples here in the US (Seattle and DC at least). I am happy because of the medication I take!

Thanks!
 
rivrrat said:
But then where did 'god' come from? It had to come from somewhere, right? So where did it come from?

You have an infinite loop going here with that kind of logic.
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It is not like you would speak about logic. God, by definition is the source and cause of all things. It did not have to come from somewhere. By definition.
 
reefedjib said:
Physics is still applicable at the moment of the singularity and it must have the energy that is expressed in the bang. Where does it come from?
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Singularity - nothing is appalicable. It is the break of all functions. The state is not determined.
Physics describes things in numbers, there are no numbers in singularity.
 
Ikari said:
All current data points towards a Big Bang. Whether or not there was a god involved is something science will not be able to say. It's all personal opinion at that point.
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Something caused the BB. There would be no decent scientist denying the cause and effect. It is not the matter of personal opinion. It is the matter of fact, of the fact denyied by atheists due to intellectual dishonesty.

We Christians call that Something - God.
 
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