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Where did the Universe come from?

Where did the Universe come from?

  • From the Big Bang, not sure what was before. God does not exist and was not involved.

    Votes: 33 40.2%

  • Not the Big Bang, but some other physical event. God does not exist and was not involved.

    Votes: 2 2.4%

  • God created the Universe without a Big Bang. Earth was especially created.

    Votes: 2 2.4%

  • God created the Universe with a Big Bang and then the universe evolved.

    Votes: 29 35.4%

  • Some other mechanism created the Universe, without God...

    Votes: 7 8.5%

  • God created the Universe in some other fashion...

    Votes: 9 11.0%
  • Total voters
    82
I suggest everyone in the current argument about free will read this [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination]Predestination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
megaprogman said:
I suggest everyone in the current argument about free will read this Predestination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Just like reef's claims, I didn't see any explanation on how freewill can exist if god is omniscient and created everything.
I just saw the assertion that "freewill can exist""predestination is not required".

The best attempt to address this was to claim that god doesn't know the future and only knows the "now". This does resolve theproblem instead it redefines omniscience to deal with the problems. I wouldn't label a god that doesn't know the future as omnisciennt because he doesn't know everything.
 
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scourge99 said:
Please explain how everything is not determined if God knows exactly how, when and where everything in the universe will turn out before he made it and then he makes it.

Please, do not just assert "because of freewill". That is not an explanation.
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Quoting from the subsequent post on Predestination:
Discussion of predestination usually involves consideration of whether God is omniscient, or eternal or atemporal (free from limitations of time or even causality). In terms of these ideas, God may see the past, present, and future, so that God effectively knows the future. If God in some sense knows ahead of time what will happen, then events in the universe are effectively predetermined from God's point of view. This is a form of determinism but not predestination since the latter term implies that God has actually determined (rather than simply seen) in advance the destiny of creatures.
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and specifically:
A contrasting Christian view maintains that God is completely sovereign over all things but that he chose to give each individual free will, which each person can exercise to accept or reject God's offer of salvation and hence God allows man's choice to determine his future.
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reefedjib said:
Quoting from the subsequent post on Predestination:


and specifically:
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And they offer NO explanation. They simply assert that freewill can exist.

They also did not include our other assumption: that god created the universe.

I don't see how things cannot be predetermined if God knows exactly how everything will be determined before he creates everything and then creates everything.

If we want to redefine omniscience to mean that God doesn't know everything before it happens then I agree that this leaves wiggle room for freewill.
 
scourge99 said:
And they offer NO explanation. They simply assert that freewill can exist.

They also did not include our other assumption: that god created the universe.

I don't see how things cannot be predetermined if God knows exactly how everything will be determined before he creates everything and then creates everything.

If we want to redefine omniscience to mean that God doesn't know everything before it happens then I agree that this leaves wiggle room for freewill.
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No, the argument goes that God predetermined the universe, in that he had foreknowledge of what would occur. However, he allowed for freewill by not implementing predestination. Man's choices are his own.
 
reefedjib said:
No, the argument goes that God predetermined the universe, in that he had foreknowledge of what would occur. However, he allowed for freewill by not implementing predestination. Man's choices are his own.
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That doesn't address the issue. Its just an assertion that freewill exists despite the presented reasoning why it cannot!!!

I have explained this 5 or six times and you just keep asserting "freewill exists" as though it explains away the problem. It doesn't.

It would be like us agreeing that God has made playing baseball impossible and then you asserting that someone has won the world series of baseball. This is EXACTLY what you do everytime you assert "freewill exists". You make a blatant contradiction. Its not possible unless you redefine what the world series of baseball is or some other understanding of the assumptions made.
 
scourge99 said:
That doesn't address the issue. Its just an assertion that freewill exists despite the presented reasoning why it cannot!!!

I have explained this 5 or six times and you just keep asserting "freewill exists" as though it explains away the problem. It doesn't.

It would be like us agreeing that God has made playing baseball impossible and then you asserting that someone has won the world series of baseball. This is EXACTLY what you do everytime you assert "freewill exists". You make a blatant contradiction. Its not possible unless you redefine what the world series of baseball is or some other understanding of the assumptions made.
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Negative. The universe allows for omniscience, creation and freewill. You are the one who is trying to use such a strict definition for omniscience that it excludes freewill. It doesn't work that way, buddy!
 
reefedjib said:
No, the argument goes that God predetermined the universe, in that he had foreknowledge of what would occur. However, he allowed for freewill by not implementing predestination. Man's choices are his own.
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If god is omnscient and made everything thus predetermining everything, then how can there not be predestination??

I don't see how unless you redefine omniscience or predetermine.
 
reefedjib said:
On principle, I have faith that God is ALL. God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. God created the Universe. I believe that God did this using mechanisms of science so he used a Big Bang to create the energy of the Universe, which evolved into the galaxies and stars we know today.
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Which god?
 
reefedjib said:
Well of course we don't know. I left that off on purpose. It's an invalid response as I am asking what you believe to be the likely case. Additionally, I included options 5 and 6 which state that it is general scientific formation or general creationism. You must be able to answer your belief from the options given.
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The problem is that the 2 answers that atheists might choose says "...god does not exist". Atheists don't make that pronouncement but rather "there is no evidence for the existence of any deity". So your choices are incomplete, hence that addendum of option #7.
 
scourge99 said:
If god is omnscient and made everything thus predetermining everything, then how can there not be predestination??

I don't see how unless you redefine omniscience or predetermine.
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I have the feeling that that is a very deep question and I certainly don't have the answer to it.

I am not a Christian, and I know very little about the debates within christiandome and freewill and predestination seems to be a central debate issue. The article linked on Predestination goes into some detail on the Christian debate. I am more a philosophical Hindu and there really isn't much of a section on it although they connect freewill to Karma.
 
megaprogman said:
Astonishingly enough, I agree with American on something. My personal view is that God probably didn't see the need to explain the minute details of physics to ancient people since they did not have any formal scientific education. The science in the first few chapters of Genesis was probably simplified and tailored to their frame of reference, however, the main point was not the science of the matter, but the moral understanding of the fall.
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Or it could be that without scientific knowledge the writers used the most popular story among the adherents of the god of abraham. Just like all the other religions have a creation story of their own. :2wave:
 
reefedjib said:
I love how worked up non-believers get trying to disprove the existence of God and her act of creation.

I am off to bed.
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No one is trying to disprove the existence of that which hasn't been shown to exist. At least, I am not. I mean, what's the point?
 
reefedjib said:
Negative. The universe allows for omniscience, creation and freewill. You are the one who is trying to use such a strict definition for omniscience that it excludes freewill. It doesn't work that way, buddy!
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Hmmm...you have no evidence to support your claim, and you have no logic supporting your claim.

Religious piety on display at it's finest!


Hint: If it ain't "strict" omniscience, it ain't "omniscience", it's "knowledgeable and sometimes wrong".
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Hmmm...you have no evidence to support your claim, and you have no logic supporting your claim.

Religious piety on display at it's finest!


Hint: If it ain't "strict" omniscience, it ain't "omniscience", it's "knowledgeable and sometimes wrong".
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Never wrong. Perfect omniscience. I'll just leave it at Predetermination, not Predestination.
 
NoJingoLingo said:
Or it could be that without scientific knowledge the writers used the most popular story among the adherents of the god of abraham. Just like all the other religions have a creation story of their own. :2wave:
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That would work too.
 
reefedjib said:
Never wrong. Perfect omniscience. I'll just leave it at Predetermination, not Predestination.
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Fine. Both Predetermination and Predestination deny freewill.

Neither denies that God knows exactly what you're going to do at every instant. And God only knows this because free will doesn't exist in an Omniciently created universe. It's what "omniscient" means.
 
scarecrow akhbar said:
fine. Both predetermination and predestination deny freewill.

Neither denies that god knows exactly what you're going to do at every instant. And god only knows this because free will doesn't exist in an omniciently created universe. It's what "omniscient" means.
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fail! Predetermination allows for freewill.



.​
 
reefedjib said:
fail! Predetermination allows for freewill.



.​
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HOW???? You keep glossing over how it does.

You just keep asserting that it does but won't explain it.

We have both explained why freewill and predetermination with a creator god cannot allow freewill.
 
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spud_meister said:
the universe came from the big bang, and as i got told by an astrophysicist, what was before is irrelevant as there was nothing, no space or time
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If there were nothing, then the bang never happened.
Nothing + nothing = nothing.
There had to be something....so how did this "something" come about?
 
scourge99 said:
HOW???? You keep glossing over how it does.

You just keep asserting that it does but won't explain it.

We have both explained why freewill and predetermination with a creator god cannot allow freewill.
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Just because God knows in advance what choices will be made, this does not change the fact the the people make those choices out of freewill.
 
earthworm said:
If there were nothing, then the bang never happened.
Nothing + nothing = nothing.
There had to be something....so how did this "something" come about?
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Actually there are theories on how something can come from nothing. Virtual particles and the like.
 
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