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Where did the Universe come from?

Where did the Universe come from?

  • From the Big Bang, not sure what was before. God does not exist and was not involved.

    Votes: 33 40.2%

  • Not the Big Bang, but some other physical event. God does not exist and was not involved.

    Votes: 2 2.4%

  • God created the Universe without a Big Bang. Earth was especially created.

    Votes: 2 2.4%

  • God created the Universe with a Big Bang and then the universe evolved.

    Votes: 29 35.4%

  • Some other mechanism created the Universe, without God...

    Votes: 7 8.5%

  • God created the Universe in some other fashion...

    Votes: 9 11.0%
  • Total voters
    82
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
If it's predetermined, it's not a choice. A rock tossed off a roof doesn't choose to hit the ground, it just does. If it hit's the neighbor in the head first, it didn't make that choice, either, that was the Holy Thrower's option.
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But it was the neighbor's choice to take a walk. Freewill.
 
reefedjib said:
You are missing the last part about God having created everything with foreknowledge:

Because God knows exactly what choice you will make and because God created everything, how do you have an option to choose differently then God foresaw at creation?

If you can't choose differently then what God foresees you choosing then how have you made a choice?
Click to expand...
You have freewill so you have the option to choose differently, but if you do then God will know, so you can never choose differently that what God forsees. However, God is not making the choice, you are.



You still have freewill and you still make a choice.
Click to expand...


I really can't help you any more reefedjib. You completely failed to address my last post and simply re-asserted your claim even though I've repeatedly shown it is contradictory with an omniscient, omnipotent, God who created the universe.

You are just ignoring what I have said and merely reiterating that "you have freewill so it just works".

Like I said before, I explained the problems with freewill and an omnipotent, omniscient God who created everything but then you promptly ignore them by asserting "I have freewill so I can choose". You aren't addressing the contradictions. You are merely asserting you have freewill every time a contradiction comes up.
 
reefedjib said:
Here is what I wrote:


I assume you have an issue with the third statement? What is so surprising about having knowledge but not planning? The universe evolves. I create it with XYZ initial conditions. It evolves and I am aware of what it does and will do, but I did not plan it I just gave initial conditions.
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Yes, exactly wrong, since the Creatorthingy we're discussing has perfect knowledge of what It's doing.

You're now assuming it lacks perfect knowledge. Ie, you're now claiming it is not omniscient, which is consistent with my claim that freewill cannot exist in a universe created by an omniscient omnipotent being. You concur, and remove the being's omniscience.

reefedjib said:
Furthermore, the universe is an indeterminant place. Quantum mechanics dictate randomness and it relies on the observer. So, again, God did not plan, yet God has knowledge.
Yes, the Universe IS indeterminate from our viewpoint. Are you now claiming your omnipotent Goddess is limited to our human point of view?

reefedjib said:
Not at all. God still knows what happens.
Click to expand...

You keep making the assertion so devoutly.

I'm going to go eat.
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Click to expand...
 
scourge99 said:
I really can't help you any more reefedjib. You completely failed to address my last post and simply re-asserted your claim even though I've repeatedly shown it is contradictory with an omniscient, omnipotent, God who created the universe.

You are just ignoring what I have said and merely reiterating that "you have freewill so it just works".

Like I said before, I explained the problems with freewill and an omnipotent, omniscient God who created everything but then you promptly ignore them by asserting "I have freewill so I can choose". You aren't addressing the contradictions. You are merely asserting you have freewill every time a contradiction comes up.
Click to expand...

It is not the only contradiction in the world. How can we be a nation of peace and go to war every 10-20 years?

These things are true:
God is omniscient
God is omnipotent
God is omnipresent
God created the universe
We each have freewill

Just because God knows what decision we will make doesn't mean that we did not make it with freewill.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
You're now assuming it lacks perfect knowledge. Ie, you're now claiming it is not omniscient, which is consistent with my claim that freewill cannot exist in a universe created by an omniscient omnipotent being. You concur, and remove the being's omniscience.
Click to expand...

Ha! I said no such thing.

reefedjib said:
Furthermore, the universe is an indeterminant place. Quantum mechanics dictate randomness and it relies on the observer. So, again, God did not plan, yet God has knowledge.
Click to expand...

Yes, the Universe IS indeterminate from our viewpoint. Are you now claiming your omnipotent Goddess is limited to our human point of view?
Click to expand...

Nope.


You keep making the assertion so devoutly.

I'm going to go eat.
Click to expand...

I love how worked up non-believers get trying to disprove the existence of God and her act of creation.

I am off to bed.
 
reefedjib said:
It is not the only contradiction in the world. How can we be a nation of peace and go to war every 10-20 years?

These things are true:
God is omniscient
God is omnipotent
God is omnipresent
God created the universe
We each have freewill

Just because God knows what decision we will make doesn't mean that we did not make it with freewill.
Click to expand...
If God knows what decision we will make & is the creator of the universe that means that we cannot make a decision without her already knowing since creation, what we will choose.

Thus all our actions and all the events of the universe were predetermined by God when he created everything.

Reiterating that "we still decide" or "we still have freewill" isn't an argument and does nothing to invalidate the logic above. Its just denial.
 
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scourge99 said:
If God knows what decision we will make & is the creator of the universe that means that we cannot make a decision without her already knowing since creation, what we will choose.

Thus all our actions and all the events of the universe were predetermined by God when he created everything.
Click to expand...

But all you have to do is trick God by deciding to do something, and then at the last second do the opposite!

Oh, wait, God knew you were going to change your mind. Foiled by the Omniscient Being again!
 
scourge99 said:
I'm curious as to why you think the origin of the universe is intelligent.

Are you aware of the fatal flaws of the watchmaker argument?

If you believe that the origin of the universe isn't necessarilly intelligent then you should probably describe it with some other label than God. God implies some sort of intelligence or conscious entity. It would be like describing natural causes like the flowing of water as divine. Perhaps you are a pantheist.
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Human can not conceptualize what came before the universe, if there was anything.
All I can do is ascribe everything I see to "God."

As I said before, I can't be an atheist it doesn't feel right with me.
I don't feel whole trying to be one, which means I probably was never one in the first place.

Modern religions, to me, seem like nothing but shallow husks of what they were probably meant to be.

At this point I don't care if it sounds illogical because I can't explain it.
 
No vote
The universe always was and will forever be. Time is irreverent, its only an invention of man.
A big bang may have occurred; there is still so much that we do not know.
God and Mother Nature could be one and the same.
 
reefedjib said:
It is not the only contradiction in the world. How can we be a nation of peace and go to war every 10-20 years?

These things are true:
God is omniscient
God is omnipotent
God is omnipresent
God created the universe
We each have freewill

Just because God knows what decision we will make doesn't mean that we did not make it with freewill.
Click to expand...
If god knows all and sees all and also created everything, is it possible that he regrets or feels sorry for anything that he has made or does? Just curious as to what you think.
 
earthworm said:
No vote
The universe always was and will forever be. Time is irreverent, its only an invention of man.
A big bang may have occurred; there is still so much that we do not know.
God and Mother Nature could be one and the same.
Click to expand...

the measurement of time is a human invention, time would flow regardless of life
 
earthworm said:
No vote
The universe always was and will forever be. Time is irreverent, its only an invention of man.
A big bang may have occurred; there is still so much that we do not know.
God and Mother Nature could be one and the same.
Click to expand...

Does this describe your beliefs? Probably not perfectly but close?
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism]Pantheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Human can not conceptualize what came before the universe, if there was anything.
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I wouldn't go that far. You are making the positive claim that we can not know and never will. However, all we know is that we don't know now. We don't know what came "before" the big bang in the same way ancient man did not know what caused lightening and thunder.

To proclaim that we will never know would be like ancient man claiming we would never understand the skies and the stars.

We must accept our ignorance and simply live based on what we do know. That is all we can do.

Harry Guerrilla said:
All I can do is ascribe everything I see to "God."
Click to expand...
I'm curious as to why you think the origin of the universe is intelligent? Its a big jump from believing the universe had a specific cause to believing that the universes cause is an intelligence of some type. I'm curious to know why you came to the conclusion you did.

Harry Guerrilla said:
As I said before, I can't be an atheist it doesn't feel right with me.
I don't feel whole trying to be one, which means I probably was never one in the first place.
Click to expand...
I'm not an atheist by choice. I don't choose my beliefs. My view and understanding of reality dictates what I believe.

To put it simply, I cannot stop being an atheist anymore than I can stop believing the sky is blue.

Harry Guerrilla said:
At this point I don't care if it sounds illogical because I can't explain it.
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That is, of course, your choice.:)
 
scourge99 said:
I wouldn't go that far. You are making the positive claim that we can not know and never will. However, all we know is that we don't know now. We don't know what came "before" the big bang in the same way ancient man did not know what caused lightening and thunder.

To proclaim that we will never know would be like ancient man claiming we would never understand the skies and the stars.

We must accept our ignorance and simply live based on what we do know. That is all we can do.
Click to expand...

I mean to say, I'll probably never know.

scourge99 said:
I'm curious as to why you think the origin of the universe is intelligent? Its a big jump from believing the universe had a specific cause to believing that the universes cause is an intelligence of some type. I'm curious to know why you came to the conclusion you did.
Click to expand...

I have no other answer.

I don't feel that everything was placed as it is(God specifically set it up) and I feel right not believing that there is a higher power.

scourge99 said:
I'm not an atheist by choice. I don't choose my beliefs. My view and understanding of reality dictates what I believe.

To put it simply, I cannot stop being an atheist anymore than I can stop believing the sky is blue.
Click to expand...

That is true but I have come to understand and deal with things I used to think were uncomfortable being ok with.
Like death, violence, etc.

This one particular thing, I can not determine completely.
 
scourge99 said:
If God knows what decision we will make & is the creator of the universe that means that we cannot make a decision without her already knowing since creation, what we will choose.
Click to expand...

Yes.

Thus all our actions and all the events of the universe were predetermined by God when he created everything.
Click to expand...

God having knowledge of the choices and consequences of freewill versus predetermination are two separate things. God is not creating the universe to select the outcome of individuals.
 
earthworm said:
No vote
The universe always was and will forever be. Time is irreverent, its only an invention of man.
A big bang may have occurred; there is still so much that we do not know.
God and Mother Nature could be one and the same.
Click to expand...

I believe that God and the concept of Mother Nature being one and the same is true.
 
roughdraft274 said:
If god knows all and sees all and also created everything, is it possible that he regrets or feels sorry for anything that he has made or does? Just curious as to what you think.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I reach to Buddhism on this issue, even though I believe in a God and Buddhism does not. The Buddhists believe that life is suffering, including the attachments to pleasurable activities. I believe this to be true and I feel that God understands this suffering. But it must be to bring people to transcend this suffering and work out their karma.
 
scourge99 said:
Does this describe your beliefs? Probably not perfectly but close?
Pantheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

Yes. Except I believe that God is also the creator. I do not think God is a personal God.

You link states:
  • Monist physicalist or Naturalistic Pantheism holds that there is only one type of substance, and that substance is physical, i.e. energy and matter. Historically this version was held by Stoics such as Zeno of Citium or Marcus Aurelius, and in modern times by John Toland, Ernst Haeckel, D.H. Lawrence and Paul Harrison. This version is represented today by the World Pantheist Movement. In this version, the term god - if used at all - is basically a synonym for Nature or Universe, seen from the point of view of reverence.
  • Monist idealist Pantheism holds that there is only one type of substance, and that substance is mental or spiritual. Ultimate reality consists of a single consciousness. This version is uncommon in modern times but is represented in the Eleatic school of Xenophanes and Parmenides and by Consciousness-Only schools of Buddhism.
  • Dualist Pantheism holds that there are two major types of substance, physical and mental/spiritual. Dualistic pantheism is very diverse, and may include beliefs in reincarnation, cosmic consciousness, and paranormal connections across Nature. It is represented most widely today in literal versions of Paganism.
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I am not any of these. I am a mixture of Monist idealist Pantheism and Dualist Pantheism.

Your link goes on to state:
Hinduism
It is generally asserted that Hindu religious texts are the oldest known literature that contains Pantheistic ideas. In Hindu theology, Brahman is the unchanging, infinite, immanent, and transcendent reality which is the Divine Ground of all things in this Universe, and is also the sum total of all that ever is, was, or ever shall be. "poornamadah poornamidam" which in Sanskrit means "That is whole, this is whole." This idea of pantheism is traceable from some of the more ancient Vedas and Upanishads to later Advaita philosophy. All Mahāvākyas (Great Sayings) of the Upanishads, in one way or another, seem to indicate the unity of the world with the Brahman. Chāndogya Upanishad says "All this Universe indeed is Brahman; from him does it proceed; into him it is dissolved; in him it breathes, so let every one adore him calmly". It further says "This whole universe is Brahman, from Brahman to a clod of earth. Brahman is both the efficient and the material cause of the world. He is the potter by whom the vase is formed; He is the clay from which it is fabricated. Everything proceeds from Him, without waste or diminution of the source, as light radiates from sun. Everything merges into Him again, as bubbles bursting mingle with air – as rivers fall into the ocean. Everything proceeds from and returns to Him, as the web of the spider is emitted from and retracted into itself." In the hymns of the Rig-veda, a pantheistic strain of thought may be discernible in the tenth book (10-121).

This concept of God is of one unity, with the individual personal gods being aspects of the One; thus, different deities are seen by different adherents as particularly well suited to their worship. As the sun has rays of light which emanate from the same source, the same holds true for the multifaceted aspects of God emanating from Brahman, like many colors of the same prism. Also Hindus worship Nature by offering prayers to sacred trees, groves and also to animals. It's believed widely among Hindus that God lives in all, a very pantheistic belief. Vedanta, specifically, Advaita, is a branch of Hindu philosophy which gives this matter a greater focus. Most Vedantic adherents are monists or "non-dualists" (i.e. Advaita Vedanta), seeing multiple manifestations of the one God or source of being, a view which is often considered by non-Hindus as being polytheistic.
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So specifically, I believe 99.999% in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta"]Advaita Vedanta[/ame].
 
scourge99 said:
Hollow assertions and tough talking may convince your friends and family, but here its understood as an admission of defeat.

If you'd like to explain where I was playing word games then I'd be more than happy to address your concerns. But huffing and puffing is simply ignored.
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Funny...speaking of hollow and things ignored...so are you. Like I said...people that cant see past their own insecurities...you just arent worth the effort. Im a fairly quick learner...Ive seen enough of you to understand you for who and what you are.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Oh, religious discussions can be a real hoot.

I see someone argued that their God is omnipotent, perfect, and omniscient.

That means he either doesn't believe in free will or he doesn't understand the meaning of the words "omniscient", "omnipotent", and "perfect".
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I dont really find them all that interesting. People have their own set of belief systems...very few people actually put any independent thought into them. They then become 'converted' to their belief system and regadless of the fact that there is no way possible to PROVE or KNOW...they become blindly dogmatic. Just not interesting.
 
reefedjib said:
The universe was created. It was created with a certain amount of energy. It's creation defined the beginning (and end) of time. There is conservation of energy so energy lasts the length of time of the universe. God created the universe and time. "Everlasting" is longer than the time of the universe, we just have no way of measuring it.
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WOuldnt it be better to begin your statement with something like "I believe that the universe was..." or "I think"...or..."Current theory holds that..."

We dont know what 'was' or how it 'was'...
 
reefedjib said:
Yes. Except I believe that God is also the creator. I do not think God is a personal God.

You link states:


I am not any of these. I am a mixture of Monist idealist Pantheism and Dualist Pantheism.

Your link goes on to state:


So specifically, I believe 99.999% in Advaita Vedanta.
Click to expand...
Sounds complicated.
 
reefedjib said:
Yes.



God having knowledge of the choices and consequences of freewill versus predetermination are two separate things. God is not creating the universe to select the outcome of individuals.
Click to expand...

Please explain how everything is not determined if God knows exactly how, when and where everything in the universe will turn out before he made it and then he makes it.

Please, do not just assert "because of freewill". That is not an explanation.
 
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