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Where did the Universe come from?

Where did the Universe come from?

  • From the Big Bang, not sure what was before. God does not exist and was not involved.

    Votes: 33 40.2%

  • Not the Big Bang, but some other physical event. God does not exist and was not involved.

    Votes: 2 2.4%

  • God created the Universe without a Big Bang. Earth was especially created.

    Votes: 2 2.4%

  • God created the Universe with a Big Bang and then the universe evolved.

    Votes: 29 35.4%

  • Some other mechanism created the Universe, without God...

    Votes: 7 8.5%

  • God created the Universe in some other fashion...

    Votes: 9 11.0%
  • Total voters
    82
reefedjib said:
She will make it with freewill for the people. It is still the people's choice and not determined by God, but God knows what will happen because She is omniscient.
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Choose your own adventure!!

1) Before god created everything did he know exactly how it would turn out?

If no) then god is not omniscient. End here.
If yes) continue

2) Did god create the universe?
If no) then god is not the creator of all the universe. End here
If yes) continue

Conclusions) If god created everything and knew how everything would turn out then you have no "choice". You are merely doing what god foresaw you would do when he created everything at the beginning.
End.
 
reefedjib said:
No, where have I done this?
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You've redefined "omniscient" to mean "He knows exactly what's going to happen except when He doesn't know".

Freewill on the part of the creation, given the boundary conditions of a perfect creation, means the Creator either HAS to know what the Creation is going to do, at all times, or know nothing about future events. There's no inbetween.

She's either loading the dice or peeking, or not looking at all.

But you've redefined "omniscient" to mean something else, because your preconceptions of what freewill is override your desire to use words properly in context.

God, if She's going to know that Antoine Shermerhorn is going to be the first man to die in a crash on the Moon Europa, is going to have to know that the sperm that made Antoine carried the Y-chromsome, not the X. So She is going to have to have positive knowledge of his father's every sperm, and his grandfathers, and his ...well, you get the picture. So Antoine's "free choice" in dying on Europa is predicated on the precisely deterministic knowledge of his heritage than only exact planning at the original moment of creation can give the Creatrix. She can't "know" if She didn't plan it out in the first place.
 
I chose "God created it, then it evolved" because that best describes my thoughts about it for the past 30 years or so. Granted, my idea of "God" is not typical, but describes more of a creative and mental energy as opposed to a human-type super-being.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
You've redefined "omniscient" to mean "He knows exactly what's going to happen except when He doesn't know".

Freewill on the part of the creation, given the boundary conditions of a perfect creation, means the Creator either HAS to know what the Creation is going to do, at all times, or know nothing about future events. There's no inbetween.

She's either loading the dice or peeking, or not looking at all.

But you've redefined "omniscient" to mean something else, because your preconceptions of what freewill is override your desire to use words properly in context.

God, if She's going to know that Antoine Shermerhorn is going to be the first man to die in a crash on the Moon Europa, is going to have to know that the sperm that made Antoine carried the Y-chromsome, not the X. So She is going to have to have positive knowledge of his father's every sperm, and his grandfathers, and his ...well, you get the picture. So Antoine's "free choice" in dying on Europa is predicated on the precisely deterministic knowledge of his heritage than only exact planning at the original moment of creation can give the Creatrix. She can't "know" if She didn't plan it out in the first place.
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The version I've heard is that god sets everything up so that he knows it will all work out in the end while still allowing autonomy.

E.G., god creates a giant rat maze and puts everyone in it. There are lots of areas to go in the maze but only one exit.

In other words, god sets up our conditions such that we are bounded in our actions but still free.

Of course the glaring flaw in this whole thing is that its based on nothing but imagination. It has no basis in reality and isn't verifiable.
 
reefedjib said:
She will make it with freewill for the people. It is still the people's choice and not determined by God, but God knows what will happen because She is omniscient.
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If there is a God, he is obviously a man. If God was a chick, she would have spent the last 4 billion years constantly repainting the universe, moving planets and galaxies around, having old creation yard sales, and would have a gay friend to help pick out new planet colors and crap like that.
 
scourge99 said:
Choose your own adventure!!

1) Before god created everything did he know exactly how it would turn out?
yes) continue

2) Did god create the universe?
yes) continue

Conclusions) If god created everything and knew how everything would turn out then you have no "choice". You are merely doing what god foresaw you would do when he created everything at the beginning.
End.
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Your conclusion is wrong. God created everything, including giving humans freewill. It so happens that She knows how everything turns out because she is omniscient. But She didn't act on that foreknowledge. She still allowed for "choice".
 
rivrrat said:
if a 'god' can be everlasting then so can anything else. Like... the energy that created the universe.
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The universe was created. It was created with a certain amount of energy. It's creation defined the beginning (and end) of time. There is conservation of energy so energy lasts the length of time of the universe. God created the universe and time. "Everlasting" is longer than the time of the universe, we just have no way of measuring it.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
You've redefined "omniscient" to mean "He knows exactly what's going to happen except when He doesn't know".

Freewill on the part of the creation, given the boundary conditions of a perfect creation, means the Creator either HAS to know what the Creation is going to do, at all times, or know nothing about future events. There's no inbetween.

She's either loading the dice or peeking, or not looking at all.

But you've redefined "omniscient" to mean something else, because your preconceptions of what freewill is override your desire to use words properly in context.

God, if She's going to know that Antoine Shermerhorn is going to be the first man to die in a crash on the Moon Europa, is going to have to know that the sperm that made Antoine carried the Y-chromsome, not the X. So She is going to have to have positive knowledge of his father's every sperm, and his grandfathers, and his ...well, you get the picture. So Antoine's "free choice" in dying on Europa is predicated on the precisely deterministic knowledge of his heritage than only exact planning at the original moment of creation can give the Creatrix.
Click to expand...

The Creator knows exactly what will happen at all times.
The Creator creates the universe with freewill by humans.
The Creator does not plan all events, She just has knowledge of them.

She can't "know" if She didn't plan it out in the first place.
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Not true. She can allow freewill and know the results but have had no planning to make it happen.
 
lizzie said:
I chose "God created it, then it evolved" because that best describes my thoughts about it for the past 30 years or so. Granted, my idea of "God" is not typical, but describes more of a creative and mental energy as opposed to a human-type super-being.
Click to expand...

That is roughly my view. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that you "creative and mental energy" pervades every corner of creation and is the foundation on which all is built: souls, minds, forces, and matter.
 
reefedjib said:
The Creator knows exactly what will happen at all times.
The Creator creates the universe with freewill by humans.
The Creator does not plan all events, She just has knowledge of them.
Click to expand...

See what I mean about making up your own definitions so you won't offend your own religious sensibilities?

Too bad the real world does't work that way.

reefedjib said:
Not true. She can allow freewill and know the results but have had no planning to make it happen.
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Not if He was the one creating the universe, She can't. It did, after all, have to make Perfect choices about the Perfectly best position to put every little particle and brane, and where not to put them, if She was going to be Perfectly Omniscient about what was going to happen next.

But, as I said, people who believe in the myth of a Perfectly Omnipotent and Omniscient Creator Thingy like to believe they have free will, and they have to bastardize the meanings of words so that words don't have meaning to reconcile what are two completely irreconcilable world views.

For some reason, many people don't want to admit that if their God created them, She promptly forgot about them and doesn't give a crap one way or the other. Children do so want to be loved, don't they?
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
See what I mean about making up your own definitions so you won't offend your own religious sensibilities?

Too bad the real world does't work that way.
Click to expand...

Since you FAILED to point out anything wrong, in your opinion, about what I wrote, I'll ignore your comment.



Not if He was the one creating the universe, She can't. It did, after all, have to make Perfect choices about the Perfectly best position to put every little particle and brane, and where not to put them, if She was going to be Perfectly Omniscient about what was going to happen next.
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Absolutely not! As I said She did not plan every detail, but has knowledge of them. She created the Universe with a Big Bang and then let it evolve. She did NOT plan every particle.

But, as I said, people who believe in the myth of a Perfectly Omnipotent and Omniscient Creator Thingy like to believe they have free will, and they have to bastardize the meanings of words so that words don't have meaning to reconcile what are two completely irreconcilable world views.
Click to expand...

Blah, blah, blah more accusatory bull**** with nothing backing it up. You are lame.

For some reason, many people don't want to admit that if their God created them, She promptly forgot about them and doesn't give a crap one way or the other. Children do so want to be loved, don't they?
Click to expand...

She knows and cares and lives through Her creation.
 
reefedjib said:
Your conclusion is wrong. God created everything, including giving humans freewill. It so happens that She knows how everything turns out because she is omniscient. But She didn't act on that foreknowledge. She still allowed for "choice".
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that is contradictory.

"Choice" would be doing something that God doesn't know you will do or didn't set you up to do. If God doesn't know then She is NOT omniscient. If she knows what you will do before you do it then she is OMNISCIENT.

You lose freewill because she also set you up to do everything you will do. She knows that you would do before she created the universe AND because she created everything she knows exactly how it will unfold. There is no room in there for free will unless you remove one or more of the following:
1) God is perfectly omniscient
2) God is perfectly omnipotent
3) God creating the universe.

All you are doing is repeating over and over again that God gave us freewill. But as we've shown its contradictory to an omniscient, omnipotent god who created the universe. Its like stating that 1+1=2 but that 2-1 =/= 1. You can say it in a different way but you are still contradicting yourself.
 
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reefedjib said:
Since you FAILED to point out anything wrong, in your opinion, about what I wrote, I'll ignore your comment.
Click to expand...

Go ahead, ignorance is a proven way of preserving religious bias.


reefedjib said:
Absolutely not! As I said She did not plan every detail, but has knowledge of them.
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Not possible by definition.

If She puts a neutrino at X,Y,Z,A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I in space with a momentum vector of let's call it "fred", then She had to choose to put it there. And choices are informed decisions, since, being Omniscient, He can't not know what will happen if A is rotated thirty degrees. Also, It can't now, when putting the peices together, that if this particular carbon atom came from Star 815,423,344,342, at coordinates, "yougetthepicture", because, if that carbon atom had been elsewhere, it would have had to follow a different path to get where it was needed to be in the sugar holding that chromosome's of Shumaker I mentioned earlier. Omniscience works both ways, of course. It's actually a curse.

reefedjib said:
She created the Universe with a Big Bang and then let it evolve. She did NOT plan every particle.
Click to expand...

Then, since specif people are made of specific particles, He can't know what's happening, since there's this gigantic difference between X and Y chromosomes. Also, if It doesn't know what every particle is doing, It isn't Omniscient.
 
scourge99 said:
that is contradictory.

"Choice" would be doing something that God doesn't know you will do or didn't set you up to do.
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No. God can know what choice you make and it is still your choice.

If God doesn't know then She is NOT omniscient. If she knows what you will do before you do it then she is OMNISCIENT.
Click to expand...

She is OMNISCIENT.

You lose freewill because she also set you up to do everything you will do. She knows that you would do before she created the universe AND because she created everything she knows exactly how it will unfold. There is no room in there for free will unless you remove one or more of the following:
1) God is perfectly omniscient
2) God is perfectly omnipotent
3) God creating the universe.
Click to expand...

I totally disagree. She knows but it is still your choice.

All you are doing is repeating over and over again that God gave us freewill. But as we've shown its contradictory to an omniscient, omnipotent god who created the universe. Its like stating that 1+1=2 but that 2-1 =/= 1. You can say it in a different way but you are still contradicting yourself.
Click to expand...

You haven't shown anything.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Go ahead, ignorance is a proven way of preserving religious bias.
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Blow me. You didn't point out anything wrong, you just said I was wrong.

Then, since specif people are made of specific particles, He can't know what's happening, since there's this gigantic difference between X and Y chromosomes. Also, if It doesn't know what every particle is doing, It isn't Omniscient.
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Sure she can. She knows how it will evolve but did not place particle X at Y. Still particle X is at Y. She didn't plan it but she knows.
 
reefedjib said:
No. God can know what choice you make and it is still your choice.
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How can you have a choice if she created everything knowing exactly what choices you will make BEFORE she created everything?

How is that a choice?
 
scourge99 said:
How can you have a choice if she created everything knowing exactly what choices you will make BEFORE she created everything?

How is that a choice?
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At the time, you decide what you will do. Choice. You could have decided differently. God just happens to know what choice you make before you make it.
 
reefedjib said:
At the time, you decide what you will do. Choice. You could have decided differently. God just happens to know what choice you make before you make it.
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You are missing the last part about God having created everything with foreknowledge:

Because God knows exactly what choice you will make and because God created everything, how do you have an option to choose differently then God foresaw at creation?

If you can't choose differently then what God foresees you choosing then how have you made a choice?
 
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reefedjib said:
Blow me. You didn't point out anything wrong, you just said I was wrong.
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You said He doesn't have to know the details of every part.

Ergo, you're saying It isn't Omniscient, thereby conforming to my rule that states that everyone believing in the coexistence of freewill in humans who are the product of a Perfect Omniscient and Omnipotent Creator will exercise their freewill to redefine one of the Three Words, Omniscient, Omnipotent, or Perfect to preserve their bias rather than accepting that their bias is inconsistent with what those words actually mean.



reefedjib said:
Sure she can. She knows how it will evolve but did not place particle X at Y. Still particle X is at Y. She didn't plan it but she knows.
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So you're saying He's not Omnipotent, then? That He just pooped out a universe, then mapped the world lines of it's particles, and thus doesn't particularly care one way or the other what happens? The Act of Creation as "What Pops Out of This Zit?" approach to God? Still requires the lack of Omniscience by the God-critter, though.
 
scourge99 said:
You are missing the last part about God having created everything with foreknowledge:

Because God knows exactly what choice you will make and because God created everything, how do you have an option to choose differently then God foresaw at creation?
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You have freewill so you have the option to choose differently, but if you do then God will know, so you can never choose differently that what God forsees. However, God is not making the choice, you are.

If you can't choose differently then what God foresees you choosing then how have you made a choice?
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You still have freewill and you still make a choice.
 
reefedjib said:
You have freewill so you have the option to choose differently, but if you do then God will know, so you can never choose differently that what God forsees. However, God is not making the choice, you are.



You still have freewill and you still make a choice.
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If it's predetermined, it's not a choice. A rock tossed off a roof doesn't choose to hit the ground, it just does. If it hit's the neighbor in the head first, it didn't make that choice, either, that was the Holy Thrower's option.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
You said He doesn't have to know the details of every part.

Ergo, you're saying It isn't Omniscient, thereby conforming to my rule that states that everyone believing in the coexistence of freewill in humans who are the product of a Perfect Omniscient and Omnipotent Creator will exercise their freewill to redefine one of the Three Words, Omniscient, Omnipotent, or Perfect to preserve their bias rather than accepting that their bias is inconsistent with what those words actually mean.
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Here is what I wrote:
The Creator knows exactly what will happen at all times.
The Creator creates the universe with freewill by humans.
The Creator does not plan all events, She just has knowledge of them.
Click to expand...

I assume you have an issue with the third statement? What is so surprising about having knowledge but not planning? The universe evolves. I create it with XYZ initial conditions. It evolves and I am aware of what it does and will do, but I did not plan it I just gave initial conditions.

Furthermore, the universe is an indeterminant place. Quantum mechanics dictate randomness and it relies on the observer. So, again, God did not plan, yet God has knowledge.

So you're saying He's not Omnipotent, then? That He just pooped out a universe, then mapped the world lines of it's particles, and thus doesn't particularly care one way or the other what happens? The Act of Creation as "What Pops Out of This Zit?" approach to God? Still requires the lack of Omniscience by the God-critter, though.
Click to expand...

Not at all. God still knows what happens.
 
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