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Where did the Universe come from?

Where did the Universe come from?


  • Total voters
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What is the difference between a substance...you mean like global warming :)...we have no way of verifying that exists....yet alot of supposedly intelligent individuals believe it

Ummm....a thermometer. Seriously, that's what it takes to measure global warming. You take a long serious of continuous temperature data and you look at the trends compared to previous data. That's how you verify global warming. I think you meant to say "causes of global warming", not global warming itself. Since no one is foolish enough to claim that thermometers don't exist.
 
God is not something. God is not nothing. God is spirit and underlies the entire universe. Everything in the universe is a part of God. God is in everything. God is found in the smallest and in the largest.

It is a matter of belief. There is no evidence for it.

and that's your opinion.

However, if one can come to that conclusion about some mythical being, then it only stands to reason that the conclusion that the universe and the energy within it has just always *been*, isn't far fetched.
 
and that's your opinion.

Yes.

However, if one can come to that conclusion about some mythical being, then it only stands to reason that the conclusion that the universe and the energy within it has just always *been*, isn't far fetched.

I believe all evidence points to an inflationary universe, which implies a beginning. Anything with a beginning has an end.
 
A spirit is an entity without physical mass.
you have described what "spirit" is NOT. I want to know what "spirit" IS and how you know it to be so.

There is no way to "PROVE" that a spirit exists...as well as there is no way for science to "PROVE" anything about how our universe was created...or first life
1) Science doesn't PROVE anything. PROOFS are only valid in math. Science only supports theories with evidence and verfiable predictions.. What evidence is there to SUPPORT the existence of "spirit"? What testable predictions can be madeto support the existence of "spirit"?

2) Science has yet to present a supported theory on how life began or what "caused" the big bang (I quoted "caused" because it may be nonsensical to discuss causation or "before" the big bang). The big bang has lots of evidence: formation and movement of known universe, background radiation, among other things.

What is the difference between a substance...you mean like global warming :)...we have no way of verifying that exists....yet alot of supposedly intelligent individuals believe it
There is EVIDENCE and VERIFIABLE PREDICTIONS about global warming? What evidence or predictions do you have for "spirit"?
 
I believe all evidence points to an inflationary universe, which implies a beginning.
it implies a beginning to the inflation. It does not imply that before the beginning of the inflation there was nothing. We just don't know.

Anything with a beginning has an end.
False. Please explain why if something has a beginning it MUST have an end?

Furthermore, none of which you have said necessitates a God let alone a personal God.
 
reefedjib said:
God is not something. God is not nothing. God is spirit and underlies the entire universe. Everything in the universe is a part of God. God is in everything. God is found in the smallest and in the largest.

It is a matter of belief. There is no evidence for it.

If god is "everything" then god is the universe, which goes against nearly all religious teachings about what god is and its capacity as a being.

Moreover, something cannot be neither "something" nor "nothing". You make that silly statement then you go on to say "god is..." So you contradict yourself by both saying "god is not something" and "god is spirit" that "is in everything" and can be "found in the smallest and the largest". Saying these things implies that god is "something" and "somewhere" and therefore you're contradicting yourself.

You can believe that god is both something and not something and not nothing, but you might as well also believe that a is both equal to a and not equal to a. In other words, when you do that you are throwing out all form of reason or rational thought and we can't take you seriously.
 
False. Please explain why if something has a beginning it MUST have an end?

2nd Law of Thermodynamics. All you need to do is produce one counter-example to prove your assertion that something can have a beginning with no end.

Furthermore, none of which you have said necessitates a God let alone a personal God.

True. Mind you I have said nothing about a personal God. Nothing you have said disproves or demonstrates the absence of God.
 
But M Theory (11 dimensional space-time, 7 dimensions closed) and Multiverses don't exclude or preclude the existence of God, either. There is room for both. One is spiritual and the others are astrophysical.

Nor do they preclude that all that is was spawned by a giant cabbage.;)
 
2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
please state the 2nd law of thermo dynamics and how it necessitates that all things that have formed must have an end. Simply asserting that the 2nd law of thermo dynamics supports your claim is both lazy and asinine.
Note: the 2nd law of thermo dynamics applies to CLOSED systems only.

All you need to do is produce one counter-example to prove your assertion that something can have a beginning with no end.
the burden of proof is not on me to disprove your claims. It is on YOU to support them. What evidence do you have that ALL things end? We have lots of evidence that lots of things change FORMS. E.g.n water to ice, organic material rots, paper burns. But we have zero evidence of the energy and matter ENDING, ceasing to exist.


True. Mind you I have said nothing about a personal God. Nothing you have said disproves or demonstrates the absence of God.
Likewise nothing I have said disproves trasndimensional pixies, or leprachauns, or santa claus.
You seem to be of the mindset that you believe something until it been disproven. This is a demonstrably flawed method of reasoning.
You should believe things when evidence and reason support them. Not merely because one can't disprove something. Otherwise we'd be forced to believe in all sorts of absurd and fantastical things.
 
please state the 2nd law of thermo dynamics and how it necessitates that all things that have formed must have an end. Simply asserting that the 2nd law of thermo dynamics supports your claim is both lazy and asinine.
Note: the 2nd law of thermo dynamics applies to CLOSED systems only.

The universe is a closed system.

the burden of proof is not on me to disprove your claims. It is on YOU to support them. What evidence do you have that ALL things end? We have lots of evidence that lots of things change FORMS. E.g.n water to ice, organic material rots, paper burns. But we have zero evidence of the energy and matter ENDING, ceasing to exist.

You are the one claiming the universe does not end. Prove it.



Likewise nothing I have said disproves trasndimensional pixies, or leprachauns, or santa claus.
You seem to be of the mindset that you believe something until it been disproven. This is a demonstrably flawed method of reasoning.
You should believe things when evidence and reason support them. Not merely because one can't disprove something. Otherwise we'd be forced to believe in all sorts of absurd and fantastical things.

There is no evidence of God. Reason supports the existence of God, once you have started with the premise that God exists. It is a matter of faith and not reasoning.
 
reefedjib said:
The universe is a closed system.

Actually the universe can't be a closed system because of the fact that it is defined as everything we know and we also know that it is acted upon by what we do not know, so until humanity has complete knowledge of everything (which is impossible) it will never be a closed system.

You are the one claiming the universe does not end. Prove it.

Does matter or energy "end"?

There is no evidence of God. Reason supports the existence of God, once you have started with the premise that God exists. It is a matter of faith and not reasoning.

Ah but I already addressed your contradiction, to which you have not replied.
 
Actually the universe can't be a closed system because of the fact that it is defined as everything we know and we also know that it is acted upon by what we do not know, so until humanity has complete knowledge of everything (which is impossible) it will never be a closed system.

Nonsense. The universe contains everything, therefore it is enclosed in an implicit adiabatic wall and is closed thermodynamically.



Does matter or energy "end"?

Do they begin?



Ah but I already addressed your contradiction, to which you have not replied.

Contradiction? I must have missed that. Could you repeat it, please?
 
Contradiction? I must have missed that. Could you repeat it, please?
You can always scroll up. :2wave:

Me said:
You said:
God is not something. God is not nothing. God is spirit and underlies the entire universe. Everything in the universe is a part of God. God is in everything. God is found in the smallest and in the largest.

It is a matter of belief. There is no evidence for it.

If god is "everything" then god is the universe, which goes against nearly all religious teachings about what god is and its capacity as a being.

Moreover, something cannot be neither "something" nor "nothing". You make that silly statement then you go on to say "god is..." So you contradict yourself by both saying "god is not something" and "god is spirit" that "is in everything" and can be "found in the smallest and the largest". Saying these things implies that god is "something" and "somewhere" and therefore you're contradicting yourself.

You can believe that god is both something and not something and not nothing, but you might as well also believe that a is both equal to a and not equal to a. In other words, when you do that you are throwing out all form of reason or rational thought and we can't take you seriously.
 
Ahh, I totally missed this, or I would have responded.

If god is "everything" then god is the universe, which goes against nearly all religious teachings about what god is and its capacity as a being.

First, God is not a being. Second, God is omnipresent, so of course God is the universe.

Moreover, something cannot be neither "something" nor "nothing". You make that silly statement then you go on to say "god is..." So you contradict yourself by both saying "god is not something" and "god is spirit" that "is in everything" and can be "found in the smallest and the largest". Saying these things implies that god is "something" and "somewhere" and therefore you're contradicting yourself.

Spirit is not something, as in spirit is not some thing.

You can believe that god is both something and not something and not nothing, but you might as well also believe that a is both equal to a and not equal to a. In other words, when you do that you are throwing out all form of reason or rational thought and we can't take you seriously.

God is both rational and irrational thought. God is omniscient.
 
The universe is a closed system.
We don't know the limits and boundaries of the universe so we don't know where to say that it is closed.

Your simple assertion that the universe is closed is conceptually fine but it is not understood or defined to our knowledge. But where is it closed at exactly and how do you know? You don't know, that's the problem. You are making the same mistake that prehistoric man would thinking that the earth is the universe and is a closed system.


You are the one claiming the universe does not end. Prove it.
I don't know whether the universe will end or not or if that's even a valid question! That is the ONLY rational conclusion to arrive at due to a lack of evidence and reason.
Apparently you can't handle not knowing so you are willing to accept any explanation that you feel best explains things. Rather, you should only accept explanations that can be verified and demonstrated as true.
You need to learn to accept that sometimes we just don't know, and may never know.


There is no evidence of God. Reason supports the existence of God
please provide reasoning for the existence of God. But before that please define your god.

once you have started with the premise that God exists. It is a matter of faith and not reasoning.
Here is an example to demonstrate the absurdity in your claim:
once you have started with the premise that fairyies exist. It is a matter of faith and not reasoning.

With your reasoning anything can be claimed to exist. Your reasoning is demonstrably useless and flawed.
 
First, God is not a being. Second, God is omnipresent, so of course God is the universe.

To be omnipresent one has to occupy space and time.

Spirit is not something, as in spirit is not some thing.

What?

God is both rational and irrational thought. God is omniscient.

I was referring to your thought, or rather your (lack of) reasoning.
 
We don't know the limits and boundaries of the universe so we don't know where to say that it is closed.

Sure we do. It is at X. There is nothing beyond X. X describes the boundary of existence. It is closed.

Rather, you should only accept explanations that can be verified and demonstrated as true.

There is no reason to limit explanations to those that can be verified and demonstrated as true.

please provide reasoning for the existence of God. But before that please define your god.

God is.
God is ALL.
God is omniscient.
God is omnipresent.
God is omnipotent.


Here is an example to demonstrate the absurdity in your claim:
once you have started with the premise that fairyies exist. It is a matter of faith and not reasoning.

With your reasoning anything can be claimed to exist. Your reasoning is demonstrably useless and flawed.

Ok, fairyies exist. A matter of faith you say. What do they do and what are they for. Unless they are idempotent with God, it is meaningless.
 
Sure we do. It is at X. There is nothing beyond X. X describes the boundary of existence. It is closed.
what is the exact boundary? Is the boundary of the universe p-branes? Is it just what we can see? What about multiple universes?
See you don't know where to draw the line of where the universe is closed. You simply assert it is closed and since you can't demonstrate or show where its closed your claims regarding the 2nd law of thermo dynamics are unfounded and premature.


There is no reason to limit explanations to those that can be verified and demonstrated as true.
I didn't say you should limit explanations. I said there is no valid reason to BELIEVE that which can't be demonstrated.

If you don't care whether what you believe is true or not then continue with your beliefs. If you DO care then perhaps you should employ some means of confirming and verifying that your beliefs are true. So far you haven't explained any way in which you do such.

god is what? Or are you asserting god exists?.
God is ALL.
we have a word for what everything is already. We call it the universe. How is your use of the word god different then the use of the word universe. Or are you just equivocating?
God is omniscient.
so does that mean there is nothing God does not know?
God is omnipresent.
ok
God is omnipotent.
can god defy logic? Can god make himself non-existant but still exist?

Ok, fairyies exist. A matter of faith you say. What do they do and what are they for. Unless they are idempotent with God, it is meaningless.
What if I were to claim that fairyies are responsible for some phenomenon just as you claim God is the cause of certain events and phenomenon?
See how absurd claiming truth is when its based on faith? Its useless. it has no value.
 
what is the exact boundary? Is the boundary of the universe p-branes? Is it just what we can see? What about multiple universes?
See you don't know where to draw the line of where the universe is closed. You simply assert it is closed and since you can't demonstrate or show where its closed your claims regarding the 2nd law of thermo dynamics are unfounded and premature.

It is infinite and closed.


I didn't say you should limit explanations. I said there is no valid reason to BELIEVE that which can't be demonstrated.

Sure there is. Faith. It is valid.

If you don't care whether what you believe is true or not then continue with your beliefs. If you DO care then perhaps you should employ some means of confirming and verifying that your beliefs are true. So far you haven't explained any way in which you do such.

Since the first post I have stated that God cannot be proven or demonstrated. Yet God exists. How do I know? Faith.

god is what? Or are you asserting god exists?.

There is no simpler sentence in existence.

we have a word for what everything is already. We call it the universe. How is your use of the word god different then the use of the word universe. Or are you just equivocating?

The universe is everything, but God is more.

so does that mean there is nothing God does not know?
true.

can god defy logic? Can god make himself non-existant but still exist?

indeed.


What if I were to claim that fairyies are responsible for some phenomenon just as you claim God is the cause of certain events and phenomenon?
See how absurd claiming truth is when its based on faith? Its useless. it has no value.

No value to you, perhaps, but plenty of value to me.
 
reefedjib said:
It is infinite and closed.

...

It cannot be both infinite and finite.

Here we go again. :roll:

Since the first post I have stated that God cannot be proven or demonstrated. Yet God exists. How do I know? Faith.

You might as well throw your brain in the trash, because you're certainly not using it anymore. :2wave:
 
Sure there is. Faith. It is valid.

Since the first post I have stated that God cannot be proven or demonstrated. Yet God exists. How do I know? Faith.

Faith is not a reason to believe in anything, nor can you say that you know something based on faith, epistemologically speaking.

Else by that standard, everyone with faith in their mutually incompatible gods "knows" that they exist, and they cannot all logically exist. Its a terrible standard for knowledge that, if allowed, renders every alleged god, even the demonstrably false ones, "known."

Faith is not a valid means to knowledge; logic, reason and evidence are.
 
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...

It cannot be both infinite and finite.

Closed does not mean finite. It merely means not interacting with anything outside of it.

You might as well throw your brain in the trash, because you're certainly not using it anymore. :2wave:

Faith is not rational.
 
Faith is not a reason to believe in anything, nor can you say that you know something based on faith, epistemologically speaking.

Faith can give you knowledge.

Else by that standard, everyone with faith in their mutually incompatible gods "knows" that they exist, and they cannot all logically exist. Its a terrible standard for knowledge that, if allowed, renders every alleged god, even the demonstrably false ones, "known."

Who said all gods are mutually incompatible?

Faith is not a valid means to knowledge; logic, reason and evidence are.

Doch.
 
It is infinite and closed.
not even scientists claim this. No one knows.
Its very telling that you claim to know. Apparently you know because you have faith that its true.


Sure there is. Faith. It is valid.
so anyone who claims they know something due to faith is correct? Faith is never wrong?

Like I said before, you obviously do not care whether what you believe is true. Otherwise you'd employ some method of confirmation or verification.
Sorry, but faith isn't such a method.

Since the first post I have stated that God cannot be proven or demonstrated. Yet God exists. How do I know? Faith.
How does one "know" something by faith alone?

If someone claims to know fairyies by faith does that make it true? Does that mean fairyies exist?
If anything can be claimed to be known by faith then what use is faith?



The universe is everything, but God is more.
what "more" is he exactly?

No value to you, perhaps, but plenty of value to me.
Apparently we value things much differently. I value truth. Apparently you do not.
 
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