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Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

Is the EU a freer, more open society in terms of rights and policies?

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Me: No... standard operating procedures that determine human action... no policies and bureaucratic culture that determine peoples course?
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You: Is this supposed to be intelligible?
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If you dont get that you are somewhere far off from the intellectual realities implied by the argument we are having. See: Philosophy: "Agency"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency_(philosophy)

It applies to the actions of people in bureaucracies. You obviously don't know the means by which government and other agencies decide on and perform their actions.

Plenty more where that came from...
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So you fear foreign invasion? Or a holocaust by your own government? You fear these things in modern times despite a trend of decreasing wars and atrocities? You fear these things are going to happen in America?
 
digsbe said:
What's ironic is that after Australia banned guns, violent crimes rose. AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN. Criminals can still get guns via the black market, law abiding citizens are denied their rights to defend themselves with a suitable weapon when guns are banned.
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As one who's usually found himself against (or simply apathetic to) pro-gun concerns, I've never found a suitable counterpoint to this simple argument.
 
How about correlation is not causation?

Still seemingly a strong point though.
 
SE102 said:
You're seriously calling them Religious minorities? Not... religiously insane? Attempting to prepare for an apocalypse because you believe you have been informed by a divine means is a right? Believing you're a new messiah is a right?
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I didn't say I agreed with anything they believed. I said what I meant. Just because their beliefs might have been despicable to the majority does not give the gov't license to perform military-style raids unnecessarily.



So... this is about the government trying to come and kill you? You fear your own government trying to kill you enough that you actually invest money in an instrument of death and keep it in your home, because you fear they will come for you?

Sorry if I'm coming off as too argumentative. But some of this is just insane.
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If you are trying to portray me as some insane paranoid who sits clutching his tin foil hat and AK47 waiting for the government goons to kick in his door... sorry. I'm a regular guy with a job and a family. I don't live in fear of much of anything.

I'm simply aware that government must always be restrained and distrusted, and that the 2A is part of that. That was the position of our Founders...were they insane paranoids?
 
SE102 said:
If you dont get that you are somewhere far off from the intellectual realities implied by the argument we are having. See: Philosophy: "Agency"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency_(philosophy)

It applies to the actions of people in bureaucracies. You obviously don't know the means by which government and other agencies decide on and perform their actions.
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What the hell are you talking about? Individuals don't make decisions based upon some obscure philosophical construct. You aren't making a lick of sense.

So you fear foreign invasion? Or a holocaust by your own government? You fear these things in modern times despite a trend of decreasing wars and atrocities? You fear these things are going to happen in America?
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:doh

You said, "I am inclined to think that most people are actually quite alright."

I gave you evidence to the contrary. Do you deny the evidence?

And, no, I do not fear these things. I just acknowledge that they are possible.
 
Goshin said:
If you are trying to portray me as some insane paranoid who sits clutching his tin foil hat and AK47 waiting for the government goons to kick in his door...
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:shock: Not really, but you're insistence is scary....

sorry. I'm a regular guy with a job and a family. I don't live in fear of much of anything.
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WHew... its all okay then. :2razz:

I wouldn't try to insist you were that type of person, but you're leaving alot of room for interpretation in what you write is all. Also I come from far of on the other side of things so I could see how it may seem like that, sorry.

I said what I meant. Just because their beliefs might have been despicable to the majority does not give the gov't license to perform military-style raids unnecessarily.
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I wikid them up and the government became involved after illegal actions and violent gun fueled altercation. I don't know, sure they have the freedom to religion and playing messiah, though i think they belong in a mental institution of some sort, thats all and good. But apparently guns were in the mix.

I'm simply aware that government must always be restrained and distrusted, and that the 2A is part of that. That was the position of our Founders...were they insane paranoids?
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Yes, government power must be checked, I agree. Distrusted? Not when its checked I would say, but I trust there are always people who are vigilant of the government in a structural sense.

Hope you don't mind discussing it further.
 
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It's different. For starters kids in Europe are not subjected to curfews as far as I know. Teenagers here can drink a glass of wine if they want. They can also purchase contraceptives as they see fit with Universal Health Care.....
 
Man, walking down the street with a beer would be great. To bad I have to go to like... Russia to do that.:rofl
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
You should always have an impressive looking knife in your kitchen that doesn't match your others, so that when you do shoot him you can cover your ass.

Hey, the guy isn't supposed to be in your house, there's no reason to be punished for defending yourself.
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So...since this happened to a friend of mine...if a drunk kid mistakes your house for the one next door (thinking it's his friends) and tries to get in after a party, you're just going to kill him and plant a knife on him?

You going to be like the guy in San Diego who killed a Japanese exchange student who was lost in his neighborhood? Or the guy who shot a Mexican immigrant in the back in Texas who was merely asking for water (yes, he was illegal, but that hardly qualifies for being shot in the back)?

Are these people heroes of yours? Should you be able to shoot anyone on your property for a misunderstanding?

Look, I'm all for gun rights and self-defense; but the fervor with which some people seem to WANT to shoot someone is what freaks me out.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Unlike other nations, the United States only recourse WAS violence back in 1775. This nation has a tradition of freedom won by the gun and kept by the gun.

Other nations have a tradition of freedom kept by asking the United States for help, like the UK and Australia and most of Europe.
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oh yes, i forgot, please, remind me when Australia has aked for your help, was it in ww1, ww2, nope, we were in long before you

korea or vietnam? nope, we went with you, was it in iraq or afganistan? nope, we went with you.

perhaps when we federated? nope, did that all by our selves, without violence, i wonder how we could of managed that without america?


please, find me a time when australias freedom was threatened, and america jumped in and saved us, cause im struggling to remember it
 
My answer would be that European countries are free according to European cultural values. Although I personally think their freedoms are waning, just like freedoms in the United States are beginning to wane. The reason is the same in both cases: expansion of government. Europe has the EU parliament which largely was created without national referenda, and the U.S. has a two party duopoly.
 
Orion said:
My answer would be that European countries are free according to European cultural values. Although I personally think their freedoms are waning, just like freedoms in the United States are beginning to wane. The reason is the same in both cases: expansion of government. Europe has the EU parliament which largely was created without national referenda, and the U.S. has a two party duopoly.
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Completely agree.

The Enlightenment has long past, which is sad because many of the values and beliefs that came with it are lost on a lot of people.
 
Camlon said:
In no way. For instance, the EU has a maximum of 48 hours week, so if you want to work more, you're out of luck. Many of them have even lower, France 35 hours. Who are to decide how many hours I want to work? To bear arms is really hard. Your merits doesn't decide your wage, union officals do. And most of your income (50-75%) will be given to the government. Also, there is a lot of uneccesary regulation, for instance when stores can keep open.
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Almost everything you said there is incorrect.
 
Ethereal said:
Well, they're wrong. I have a right to defend myself, despite what you may think. Any country which denies this right is not free.
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You have the right to defend yourself in Europe also.
 
Ethereal said:
I don't live in fear of the government. The government lives in fear of me, as it should be.
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And the prize for the most delusional statement of the week goes too.......
 
kaya'08 said:
In the UK? Or US?
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The UK. You cannot use excessive force to protect yourself. One often hears the case of the farmer who shot shot the burglars going to jail. What they leave out is that the burglars were unarmed, and he wasn't.
 
Alvin T. Grey said:
Almost everything you said there is incorrect.
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Really? Doesn't EU have a 48 hours max week? Limiting the maximum working week to 48 hours

Doesn't France Have the 35 hours per week?
35-hour workweek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Most countries in Europe do have a limit on how many hours you are allowed to work, normally around 37.5-40. It's only UK where employees can choose to work as many hours as they want. Who are to decide how many hours I want to work? Not only is it a huge breach into our liberties, but it is completly economically unsound.

50-75% is given to the government. For instance France I would say is the most taxed country in EU. They have a payrol tax of 45%. They have a income tax from 0-48%. They also have GST of 19%. If we add these taxes togheter, an high income person will be taxed 77%. A low income person (less than 7000 dollar per year) would get 55% tax, and I haven't included wealth taxes, petrol taxes, TV-tax, Housing tax, and property taxes, which takes even more of your income. http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5202
 
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The only aspect Europe is 'freer' than America is in drugs and alcohol (but only in some European countries not all)

Everything else? US is superior.

I highly doubt in US you can be stopped and searched. Arrested and then held for over a month without being given knowledge of why you were arrested and have a President that is appointed. Oh and be refused the right to bear arms.
 
Camlon said:
Really? Doesn't EU have a 48 hours max week? Limiting the maximum working week to 48 hours
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Working time regulations for trainee doctors -- Pounder 339: b4488 -- BMJ
-snip-
The present working time regulations can already be applied flexibly. Every employee in the United Kingdom can choose to opt out of the 48 hour week to work up to 78 hours a week; junior doctors can decide to opt out and to return immediately to a 56 hour week, but they are limited by the New Deal—the junior doctors’ employment contract that, by enforcing an absolute 56 hour limit, is even more restrictive than the EWTD.9 In addition, they can also be non-resident on call for up to an average 72 hours a week.

Doesn't France Have the 35 hours per week?
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35-hour workweek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yep.

Most countries in Europe do have a limit on how many hours you are allowed to work, normally around 37.5-40. It's only UK where employees can choose to work as many hours as they want.
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So it went from EU wide, to "Most Countries".


50-75% is given to the government. For instance France I would say is the most taxed country in EU. They have a payrol tax of 45%. They have a income tax from 0-48%. They also have GST of 19%. If we add these taxes togheter, an high income person will be taxed 77%. A low income person (less than 7000 dollar per year) would get 55% tax, and I haven't included wealth taxes, petrol taxes, TV-tax, Housing tax, and property taxes, which takes even more of your income. Welfare Lessons from France | Michael D. Tanner | Cato Institute: Daily Commentary
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Our top tax bracket is 41%
Europe ranges from 10% up.
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe]Tax rates of Europe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Stop reading CATO. That stuff rots your brain.
 
How easy is it to get into a four year college in Europe? In Germany, you have to have gone to the Gymnasium or taken the transfer program from Hochshule to University, right?

In the US, either a high school diploma or a GED is sufficient so we have a much higher rate of college enrollment. Doesn't that mean the US is more educated?
 
Alvin T. Grey said:
Working time regulations for trainee doctors -- Pounder 339: b4488 -- BMJ
-snip-
The present working time regulations can already be applied flexibly. Every employee in the United Kingdom can choose to opt out of the 48 hour week to work up to 78 hours a week; junior doctors can decide to opt out and to return immediately to a 56 hour week, but they are limited by the New Deal—the junior doctors’ employment contract that, by enforcing an absolute 56 hour limit, is even more restrictive than the EWTD.9 In addition, they can also be non-resident on call for up to an average 72 hours a week.
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Is UK, EU? Is Europe free because UK is relatively more free than the rest of Europe. We have some east-bloc countries that quite free as well, does that mean Europe is free? The fact that pretty much every single country in Europe control how many hours you can work, show how little freedom there is in Europe.

Yep.
So it went from EU wide, to "Most Countries".
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I just stated that EU has a 48 hours max working week. That is true. I didn't mention that UK was en axception in their law, even though I knew it when I posted it, because you don't mention every single exception.


Our top tax bracket is 41%
Europe ranges from 10% up.
Tax rates of Europe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Stop reading CATO. That stuff rots your brain.
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Well, France has some ways to increase the tax level. "The top French tax rate is currently 40%, but surtaxes could boost the top rate to 51%" http://www.internationalliving.com/Countries/France/Taxes
Which will give 75%-80% taxes, but French tax system is a mess, but some thing are clear. They have a GST of 19.6% and they have a payroll tax of 45%. Pretty much, French residents are one of the most taxed in Europe and the ones who have least freedom. Also, they have performed really badly the last 10-20 years and their income level is around Spain's, Greece's and Italy's level. https://www.cia.gov/library/publica...rance&countryCode=fr&regionCode=eu&rank=38#fr

I think you need to understand that there are more taxes than income tax. We have GST, payroll taxes, and income taxes. All of them is tax on income. We also shouldn't forget all of the other taxes, property taxes, TX-tax, petrol tax and so on.

I don't read cato, I was just looking for some tax data.
 
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America has a lot of ****ed up laws, and we should be looking for ways to reduce the number of laws and make more things legal so as to increase our freedom. But no way, no how is Europe more free than America. They are worse off than us, and are basically a reflection of what America will become if we don't get off this god damned big government horse.
 
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