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Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

Is the EU a freer, more open society in terms of rights and policies?

  • Total voters
    54
Ethereal said:
Obviously, a single person wouldn't stand a chance. I'm talking about an organized insurgency.
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Wont have much effect, unless the "central government" is in tatters and the military cant keep the order of the general population.



What impact?
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Baddies, taking the piss out of the second amendment, shooting good people. We have the same problem...only because guns are banned, there's a knife problem. Thank god we banned guns.



Why is that? Has human nature changed in the past one hundred years?
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The government isn't a person, that's the thing.

2004-2008.
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You was out there for a while! Thanks for your valuable service.

If 10% of the US population revolted, the size of the insurgency would be roughly 30 million. The United States is one of the largest countries on the planet, with some of the most varied and difficult terrain. Quelling an insurgency in the United States would be virtually impossible.
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They have jets, UAV, Predator Drones, Strategic bombers....id have to disagree. Plus, its nothing they have never fought in before.
 
kaya'08 said:
Just curious. If somebody was to rob your house, and you killed the robber, does it constitute a prison sentence? In the UK, you cant touch a robber. Even if he ties your family up or threatens you.
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When confronting a robber in your home in the US one must be sure to shoot before the burglar can turn his back on you. For some strange reason there a onus placed on putting entry holes in the wrong places on future corpses.

That, and it's probably wise to make sure he's dead before you call the authorities, since if he lives, he'll probably sue, but if he dies, he doesn't get to contest your description of events.

Sawed off shotguns are EXCELLENT for home defense, since they pretty much ensure a kill and yet the shot that goes through the walls is unlikely to kill someone out on the street. Since this gives the homeowner an "unfair" advantage, however, most states impose ridiculous laws regulating the length of shotgun barrels, so only criminals make use of these weapons.

So, one has to be careful when taking out the trash, but garbage disposal is not illegal in the US.
 
Ethereal said:
Dude, I have no idea who the hell this freak is. I doubt he's stalking me, though, because if he had seen me he would never say I wasn't impressive...:cool:
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Really? Wtf is he on about then? :confused:
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Sawed off shotguns are EXCELLENT for home defense, since they pretty much ensure a kill and yet the shot that goes through the walls is unlikely to kill someone out on the street. Since this gives the homeowner an "unfair" advantage, however, most states impose ridiculous laws regulating the length of shotgun barrels, so only criminals make use of these weapons.
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An "unfair" advantage? Is this a burglary or a game of Pokemon?? :confused:

Man, it seems pretty ridiculous there too, but not as bad.
 
spud_meister said:
and what, you're incapable of defending yourself without a gun?
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I should have to get into a sword fight or fist fight with some thug breaking into my house when I should have the option of blowing him away without giving him the least shred of "level-playing-field"?

Why should he, violating my home, have anything resembling a fair chance whatsoever? If he wanted that, all he had to do was stay on the other side of my property line. That's as fair as any man needs to be.

spud_meister said:
i feel safer when i wander the city at night because i know that if someones gonna try and mug me, they're going to use a knife, which is much easier to defend against than a gun
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You want to pretend that just because there's a law banning guns that the criminals will obey this law? (HINT: Criminals BREAK laws. It's part of their professional ethics.)

Well, in America, our criminals aren't wimps like in Australia, and our criminals don't obey the laws.:roll:
 
kaya'08 said:
An "unfair" advantage? Is this a burglary or a game of Pokemon?? :confused:

Man, it seems pretty ridiculous there too, but not as bad.
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It's the moronic courts and state legislatures that violate the Constitution and infringe on gun rights, what can I say?
 
spud_meister said:
from that statement, i'd question how free you are if you live in fear of the government, and your only recourse is violence
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Unlike other nations, the United States only recourse WAS violence back in 1775. This nation has a tradition of freedom won by the gun and kept by the gun.

Other nations have a tradition of freedom kept by asking the United States for help, like the UK and Australia and most of Europe.
 
Manc Skipper said:
As a matter of fact, you can use "reasonable force" against him to repel him.
What you cannot do is pursue him down the street and break a cricket bat over his head giving them brain damage. Or shoot him unless he's about to shoot you.
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You should always have an impressive looking knife in your kitchen that doesn't match your others, so that when you do shoot him you can cover your ass.

Hey, the guy isn't supposed to be in your house, there's no reason to be punished for defending yourself.
 
kaya'08 said:
Wont have much effect, unless the "central government" is in tatters and the military cant keep the order of the general population.
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So, 30 million armed citizens, many of whom are veterans, dispersed amongst one of the largest land masses on the planet wouldn't have much effect? Bruv...you're military expertise is questionable...:cool:

Baddies, taking the piss out of the second amendment, shooting good people.
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Why would they stop? Do you actually think criminals are effected by gun laws?

The government isn't a person, that's the thing.
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:doh

What's the government made up of, Kaya?

You was out there for a while! Thanks for your valuable service.
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Oh, you mean how long was I in Iraq? I was only there for seven months; April 07-October 07, Ramadi/Karma. 2004-2008 was how long I was in the Marines.

They have jets, UAV, Predator Drones, Strategic bombers....id have to disagree. Plus, its nothing they have never fought in before.
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They have all of that in Iraq and Afghanistan, too. It's not an assurance of victory.
 
Gray_Fox_86 said:
no..................
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So the following where you said in response to Ethereal:

Gray_Fox_86 said:
I call bs on you being a former marine I've seen you in real life and you are not too impressive. But really a young marine would rape you in real life.
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Was in actuality a lie and bs in and of itself. You see, this is how to reduce your credibility quickly on any board.
 
Aww... is this another thread about how we need guns to start a hypothetical violent revolution against the government cause government is evil?

What's the government made up of, Kaya?
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Standard operating procedures, protocols, and bureaucrats?

Other nations have a tradition of freedom kept by asking the United States for help, like the UK and Australia and most of Europe
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As juvenile and nifty as that sounds, its cool that they're friends:lol:. I don't see what that has to do with the right to bear arms though.

I can't say that europe is any more or less 'free' but different.
 
I wasn't going to stick my nose in this, but something became too annoying.

I know it is popular to poo-poo the notion of the Second Amendment as a safeguard against government tyranny, and to make ludicrous comparisons about how citizens with rifles are going to fight the entire US Military in open battle... as if we'd stand shoulder-to-shoulder like Lexington and Concord all over again.

The thing is, that's not the point.

I could speak at length about Fourth Generation Warfare, and how a substantial portion of the US military would probably defect if called on to fight its own citizens. But that still isn't the point.

The point is that an armed citizenry makes government more cautious than it would otherwise be about infringing on their citizen's rights in most cases. Push them too far and you end up with dead enforcers, and possibly dead politicians. Politicians fear being assassinated... that is why some have tried to ban certain high-powered long-range rifles used by snipers.

It isn't about fighting the military in open warfare, it is about the ability of the people to immediately engage in armed resistance when the government goes too far.

Such a capacity necessarily makes government a little more circumspect than it would be otherwise. Witness the aftermath of the Weavers at Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidians in Waco. In both cases gov't pushed too hard, took significant casualties, suffered lots of bad press and bad public opinion... and since then has been a lot more circumspect about launching military-style raids on despised religious minorities.
 
The point is that an armed citizenry makes government more cautious than it would otherwise be about infringing on their citizen's rights in most cases.
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Is there a study on this? Weren't you know... Iraqis under Saddam well armed?:shrug:

Politicians fear being assassinated... that is why some have tried to ban certain high-powered long-range rifles used by snipers.
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Wait your saying politicians were trying to ban rifles so they could do evil things without being assassinated? Examples? I have a personal theory on this but I would rather know what went on in real life.

Such a capacity necessarily makes government a little more circumspect than it would be otherwise. Witness the aftermath of the Weavers at Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidians in Waco. In both cases gov't pushed too hard, took significant casualties, suffered lots of bad press and bad public opinion... and since then has been a lot more circumspect about launching military-style raids on despised religious minorities.
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You're seriously calling them Religious minorities? Not... religiously insane? Attempting to prepare for an apocalypse because you believe you have been informed by a divine means is a right? Believing you're a new messiah is a right?

It isn't about fighting the military in open warfare, it is about the ability of the people to immediately engage in armed resistance when the government goes too far.
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So... this is about the government trying to come and kill you? You fear your own government trying to kill you enough that you actually invest money in an instrument of death and keep it in your home, because you fear they will come for you?

Sorry if I'm coming off as too argumentative. But some of this is just insane.
 
SE102 said:
Aww... is this another thread about how we need guns to start a hypothetical violent revolution against the government cause government is evil?
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Are you one of those naive people who trusts humans with concentrated power?

Standard operating procedures, protocols, and bureaucrats?
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Humans. The government is made up of humans. And humans are nasty, vile creatures, and because I'm not naive enough to think otherwise, I cherish my right to keep and bear arms because it is the final safeguard against tyranny.
 
That's nice for the despicable, but what about the normal person?
 
Ethereal said:
Are you one of those naive people who trusts humans with concentrated power?
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Naw, I'm one of those humans who believes that the balances of power in my representative democracy make it the greatest on earth yet I throw it all away because I think there gonna come get me in the night so I have to buy a gun.

Humans. The government is made up of humans. And humans are nasty, vile creatures, and because I'm not naive enough to think otherwise, I cherish my right to keep and bear arms because it is the final safeguard against tyranny.
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No... standard operating procedures that determine human action... no policies and bureaucratic culture that determine peoples course?

Strange... being the philosophical being that I am... I am inclined to think that most people are actually quite alright. I find you a tad misanthropic.
 
SE102 said:
Naw, I'm one of those humans who believes that the balances of power in my representative democracy make it the greatest on earth yet I throw it all away because I think there gonna come get me in the night so I have to buy a gun.
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I don't even own a gun, chief. Contrary to what you might think, I don't sit around fitfully wringing my hands in fear of black helicopters and government agents. I'm just not naive enough to think it could never happen.

No... standard operating procedures that determine human action... no policies and bureaucratic culture that determine peoples course?
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Is this supposed to be intelligible?

Strange... being the philosophical being that I am... I am inclined to think that most people are actually quite alright. I find you a tad misanthropic.
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[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror]Reign of Terror - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition]Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_nanking]Nanking Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_graves_in_the_Soviet_Union]Mass graves in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust]The Holocaust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_crow]Jim Crow laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Darfur]War in Darfur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


Plenty more where that came from...
 
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