What kind of corporal punishment, if any, should be allowed in public schools?

Goshin said:

Utter nonsense. It works consistently with most children, if applied correctly as one part of an overall discipline methodology.

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Nooo! I can't agree. :shock:

I was never hit as a child, and even now, my school is not allowed to use corporal punishment. And look how I turned out .... oh, wait! :mrgreen:

But seriously, is anyone comfortable with the concept of an adult hitting a small child? Would you like someone the size of a garage belting you? It is assault - nothing less, and anyone - school official or parent - who does that should be up before the bench.

I once told a lady who was repeatedly smacking her child in a shop, that she should stop doing that. But all she did was tell me to feck off or I would get some of the same. :3oops: I give up on some parents - don't have kids if you can't handle them.

Leo said:

Nooo! I can't agree. :shock:

I was never hit as a child, and even now, my school is not allowed to use corporal punishment. And look how I turned out .... oh, wait! :mrgreen:

But seriously, is anyone comfortable with the concept of an adult hitting a small child? Would you like someone the size of a garage belting you? It is assault - nothing less, and anyone - school official or parent - who does that should be up before the bench.

I once told a lady who was repeatedly smacking her child in a shop, that she should stop doing that. But all she did was tell me to feck off or I would get some of the same. :3oops: I give up on some parents - don't have kids if you can't handle them.

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I've no objections to a PARENT swatting a child on the rear or hand to curb some dangerous impulse. The exact reason nature gave animals a sense of pain was to allow them to understand when they're doing something harmful to themselves. Properly applied, corporal punishment is an effective behavioral modification tool.

Won't work in all cases, but exceptions don't disprove a rule anyway. General rules are never 100% reliable, except this one.

No, beating a kid senseless isn't good training technique.

Allowing them to grab the knobs on the stove isn't a good idea, either. Since the consequences of a child playing with a stove can be severe, it may be that some form of pain based conditioning is required.

Historically, it works.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:

I've no objections to a PARENT swatting a child on the rear or hand to curb some dangerous impulse. The exact reason nature gave animals a sense of pain was to allow them to understand when they're doing something harmful to themselves. Properly applied, corporal punishment is an effective behavioral modification tool.

Won't work in all cases, but exceptions don't disprove a rule anyway. General rules are never 100% reliable, except this one.

No, beating a kid senseless isn't good training technique.

Allowing them to grab the knobs on the stove isn't a good idea, either. Since the consequences of a child playing with a stove can be severe, it may be that some form of pain based conditioning is required.

Historically, it works.

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I agree, to an extent.

As long as it is used with careful moderation, it will likely have a positive effect in the early stages: "If I touch the stove, my ass hurts..." Which is probably better than "I touched the stove, now I am in the hospital with hand burns..."

But at what point does it become (IMO), better to use reason on a child? Or at least reason backed up with reasonable but firm corporal punishment backup?

I suppose it's a case-by-case thing.

Leo said:

Nooo! I can't agree. :shock:

I was never hit as a child, and even now, my school is not allowed to use corporal punishment. And look how I turned out .... oh, wait!

But seriously, is anyone comfortable with the concept of an adult hitting a small child? Would you like someone the size of a garage belting you? It is assault - nothing less, and anyone - school official or parent - who does that should be up before the bench.

I once told a lady who was repeatedly smacking her child in a shop, that she should stop doing that. But all she did was tell me to feck off or I would get some of the same. : I give up on some parents - don't have kids if you can't handle them.

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I've explained my position on this before, but I suppose it has been over two months which means I have to go through everything all over again. :mrgreen:

To be effective in instilling discipline in a child, a parent must be involved, loving, attentive, worthy of respect, firm, consistent, and self-controlled. This is the baseline. Discipline without a positive relationship is rarely effective.

The exact methodology of discipline must vary from child to child, because all children are different to some degree.

The everyday tools of discipline are verbal correction, physical prevention (ie taking the cat's tail out of the baby's mouth), verbal scolding (by which I don't mean screaming, I mean getting through to the child that this behavior is unacceptible and why), removal of privileges, restriction of movement/activity.

Spanking is the "capital punishment" of child discipline. It is the big gun that is only used when necessary. It is employed where lesser forms of discipline have failed, or where the issue is so vital that no compromise or hesitation can be accepted. Chiefly;
1. Safety Issues... Thou Shalt Not Run Into Oncoming Traffic.
2. Open Defiance. When you permit a five year old to tell you how its going to be, the inmates are running the asylum.
3. Repeated serious offenses for which lesser discipline is not working.

Never hit a child in such a manner that may cause real harm; the purpose is to focus the child's mind on the issue at hand through the application of temporary pain, so that they will remember and realize that Stupid Hurts, and that Being Mean Causes Buttache. A light and flexible switch is better than a hand, because the hand is more rigid and massive and may cause injury. Also using an inanimate object (like a short length of belt) makes it less personal in a way.

Never spank when you are angry. If you are angry, withhold discipline until you are calm. It must never be about your anger; it must never be personal.

Either before or after spanking, you must explain carefully why it has come to this, why this is so important, and what must be done to avoid further spankings for this issue.

After the spanking, love and affection should be expressed so that the child understands that it was not personal and you do not despise them, that you are correcting them out of necessity.

As the child grows older, typically reason and discussion become the more predominant method of instilling discipline... but a vital part of the foundation was laid when the child was taught that bad behavior brings pain.

I used this method and it worked extremely well. My 14yo son is a model of courteous and considerate behavior; at the same time his "spirit" is unbroken and he is emphatically an individual. I have had no need to lay a hand on him in many years, other than to hug him for being such an awesome kid. :mrgreen:

I have this theory, it goes like this: Every human being, in order to become a decent human being, must first realize that the behaviors Stupid and Mean bring Pain. This is typically accomplished by getting your ass beat. The number of ass beatings required varies from person to person, I will call the number by the variable A. For some people A=1, for others the value of A may be in the hundreds.
Now... you can get your required number of ass beatings as a child, by your parents... OR, if you fail to do so, you will likely continue to get your ass beat as an adult, by Cops, Thugs, Outraged Fathers and Betrayed Spouses, and Irate Citizens. I preferred that my child get his necessary A out of the way early, under controlled conditions. :mrgreen:

Goshin said:

...Long post, don't want to clutter up teh sacred forum of DP...

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Precisely what I was trying to explain, but far more articulate and understandable.

The Mark said:

Precisely what I was trying to explain, but far more articulate and understandable.

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Thx :mrgreen:

I know it was long, but I've been through this argument before and was trying to cover all bases, rather than have to answer 42 posts individually.

Goshin said:

I've explained my position on this before, but I suppose it has been over two months which means I have to go through everything all over again. :mrgreen:

To be effective in instilling discipline in a child, a parent must be involved, loving, attentive, worthy of respect, firm, consistent, and self-controlled. This is the baseline. Discipline without a positive relationship is rarely effective...

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Thank you for that extensive explanation, I am of the opinion that you are an intelligent and caring dad. But I am respectfully going to disagree with your conclusions. Not completely, as they are based on sound logic, but to the degree that I believe there is an alternative to corporal punishment.

I have to use my own experience as an example (as I am still subject to parental and school discipline). I have no recollection of ever being spanked or hit in any way. My mum disagrees with the method, and my nanny was forbidden to ever use corporal punishment. As I said, neither my present school, nor my previous one, used corporal punishment, and both schools have the highest reputations for turning out academic achievers.

When I was little, my biggest fear was displeasing my dad (whom I idolised) and the direst threat nanny could employ were the dreaded words "Well, continue with that behaviour, and I shall have to tell Sir William!"

The majority of punishments meted out before I was sent away to school, consisted of being locked in my room, or the nursery, without my favourite toys. Much soul searching went on while I stared regretfully out of the window at the forbidden lawns and bushes of the grounds below. A reasonably well controlled child was the result.

At school, less than optimal behaviour, and dereliction of one's studies, resulted in detention in the study room (and still does). The boredom involved is a much greater disincentive than any momentary pain. So boarding schools have moved on from that old description of the Royal Navy - rum, sodomy and the lash. Well at least from the lash bit. :rofl

I think one of the strongest points you made was the explanation to small children why certain actions were undesirable, socially unacceptable, and dangerous. In many cases, and with very small children, just the tone of voice can be a deterrent. A sharp "No!" may startle a toddler, and make him cry, but the message is unmistakable.

We need to remember that the love of mummy and daddy is the most important thing in the world to very small children, and they will do anything to retain it. My dad died when I was still young, but when he was around, I would consciously avoid doing anything which would disappoint him. All he had to do was voice that disappointment to reduce me to tears.

So I still believe that there are methods other than violence (no matter how mild) to teach children good behaviour, and when I get married and have children, I never, ever, want them to be afraid of me. :2wave:

earthworm said:

Do nothing.
Build more prisons.
And wonder why, if that ability exists..

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My solution would involve less government and more individual liberty. If we started treating people like adults, I'm confident they would act as such...

Leo said:

Thank you for that extensive explanation, I am of the opinion that you are an intelligent and caring dad. But I am respectfully going to disagree with your conclusions. Not completely, as they are based on sound logic, but to the degree that I believe there is an alternative to corporal punishment.

I have to use my own experience as an example (as I am still subject to parental and school discipline). I have no recollection of ever being spanked or hit in any way. My mum disagrees with the method, and my nanny was forbidden to ever use corporal punishment. As I said, neither my present school, nor my previous one, used corporal punishment, and both schools have the highest reputations for turning out academic achievers.

When I was little, my biggest fear was displeasing my dad (whom I idolised) and the direst threat nanny could employ were the dreaded words "Well, continue with that behaviour, and I shall have to tell Sir William!"

The majority of punishments meted out before I was sent away to school, consisted of being locked in my room, or the nursery, without my favourite toys. Much soul searching went on while I stared regretfully out of the window at the forbidden lawns and bushes of the grounds below. A reasonably well controlled child was the result.

At school, less than optimal behaviour, and dereliction of one's studies, resulted in detention in the study room (and still does). The boredom involved is a much greater disincentive than any momentary pain. So boarding schools have moved on from that old description of the Royal Navy - rum, sodomy and the lash. Well at least from the lash bit. :rofl

I think one of the strongest points you made was the explanation to small children why certain actions were undesirable, socially unacceptable, and dangerous. In many cases, and with very small children, just the tone of voice can be a deterrent. A sharp "No!" may startle a toddler, and make him cry, but the message is unmistakable.

We need to remember that the love of mummy and daddy is the most important thing in the world to very small children, and they will do anything to retain it. My dad died when I was still young, but when he was around, I would consciously avoid doing anything which would disappoint him. All he had to do was voice that disappointment to reduce me to tears.

So I still believe that there are methods other than violence (no matter how mild) to teach children good behaviour, and when I get married and have children, I never, ever, want them to be afraid of me. :2wave:

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I believe that you are sincere and mean well.

Perhaps some children can be raised to be decent adults without ever so much as having their hand slapped. Some.

I believe that the majority do better if they've had the direct lesson, that certain behaviors are linked directly to pain, than not. I think some children are all but unmanageable without having been instilled with an awareness that corporeal punishment is a possible consequence.

I think it has its place in the parental toolbox; that has been my experience, and I've seen far too many parents who refused to use it end up with brats, druggies, and worse. However, I hope I adequately conveyed that what I consider the most important aspects of disciplining children were the segment you quoted:

To be effective in instilling discipline in a child, a parent must be involved, loving, attentive, worthy of respect, firm, consistent, and self-controlled. This is the baseline. Discipline without a positive relationship is rarely effective

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We do not have a society that can stand for corporal punishment. I believe parents in western societies should not be able to corporally punish their chirldren, they seriously cannot be trusted.

If a child was corporally punished in china or north korea I could understand. rather not so much by a family, they may not possess the moral authority though so enculturated they usually would, I would rather prefer the state had a hand in it.

Id rather corporal punishment for a variety of criminal situations vs jailtime. Such as graffiti crimes, minor sexual assault cases, significant petty theft (shoplifting a certain quota of material items, or stealing from the workplace)

and they should hire martial arts consultants to teach all children martial arts.... no relation...

Ethereal said:

My solution would involve less government and more individual liberty. If we started treating people like adults, I'm confident they would act as such...

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No, they won't, that's the problem. The more freedom you give people, the less responsible they'll act and the more they'll whine when things don't go their way.

Luna Tick said:

What kind of corporal punishment, if any, should be allowed in public schools?

So there you have it. They had spanking in the schools I attended. I have mixed feelings about it because I developed an erotic appreciation for it and won't date a man unless he's willing to spank me. True story.

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Where is my belt???

Cephus said:

Seriously, if the parents were taking care of business at home to begin with, the child probably wouldn't be misbehaving in the first place. I went to a private school, corporal punishment was not only given as a last resort, but you couldn't send your kid there if you didn't give written permission for it to happen. There were two levels, the basic swat on the hand with a ruler thing and the full blown paddle to the backside. While I never went through the latter, there was a time or two that I got the hand-swat and you know something? I learned not to do whatever it was that got me hit. For people who got paddled, I don't remember anyone ever getting it twice.

There are far too many parents who let their kids run wild today without any discipline. Sometimes, for extreme measures, a kid might need a non-damaging whack in the butt. It builds character.

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So you never had problems with your children?

Luna Tick said:

You're right. It doesn't work. In high school there was a coach I was secretly attracted to. I used to deliberately do something so that he would spank me. Ironically, the punishment was causing the behavior it was supposed to stop. But then it really sucked if I ended up getting it from someone else. And even if I got it from him, I hated it when it was happening. It only turned me on later on when I fantasized about it. I guess I'm pretty f###ed up sexually thanks to spanking, so I'm against spanking in schools, but am fine with it happening between consenting adults.



Actually, I would be all right knowing that just because I think it's interesting, but, of course, it's totally up to you if you're comfortable sharing it. I never developed any kind of thrill from handcuffs or being tied up, but I know plenty of people who are into that.

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this thread belongs in the basement, along with the rest of your crap.

American said:

So you never had problems with your children?

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Sure, but they learned what was acceptable and what was not acceptable. It always amazes my wife and I when we go somewhere public and there's a kid throwing a tantrum and the parents are just ignoring it. Our kids never did that, they knew what would happen if they did. They found more acceptable avenues for their frustration. Some things are never acceptable in public and they knew that if they acted out, they'd get punished.

That's why they're both straight-A students right now on the honor roll and get repeated recognition for citizenship, etc. in school. Far too many parents let their kids run wild because they're terrified of raising a hand or raising a voice to tell them they're wrong.

No one lays a hand on my kid and lives to tell about it. She has a parent for a reason. Call me and I'll deal with whatever's going on. You touch her, YOU suffer.

Also, I never had to use any kind of corporal punishment. I either got lucky, or I'm doing something else right.

If the educator is having problems with my kids that are serious enough that discipline needs to be taken to the next level, they tag me in. That is their only option, unless they weren't looking to keep their arms attached once they're done belting my boys.

If they can't keep the little monsters buttoned down until I show up to rain on their parade, they shouldn't be teaching anybody's kids, much less my kids.

Luna Tick said:

What kind of corporal punishment, if any, should be allowed in public schools?

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The kind where the school calls me and allows me to administer the punishment I see fit after investigating the situation. Any teacher or administrator who lays a hand on my child will have a big ****ing problem on his hands after he gets out of the hospital. I am the only one who is allowed to spank my child(ren).

Luna Tick said:

So there you have it. They had spanking in the schools I attended. I have mixed feelings about it because I developed an erotic appreciation for it and won't date a man unless he's willing to spank me. True story.

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Alrighty then ... :shock:

I do sympathize with Arcana and TacDan's viewpoint. I don't like the idea of anyone else whuppin' on my kid.

When my son was in 1st grade, he was causing some problems. I spoke to the teacher and we adopted a simple solution: if he was good, she put a smiley-face on his daily report. If he misbehaved, she put a frowny-face. Discipline was applied at home for misbehavior at school. Inside of three months he turned into a Model Student. :mrgreen:

However, when I was in school corporeal punishment was allowed, and it would certainly appear that schools were more orderly back then than they seem to be now.