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You can't spend your way out of a recession

You can't spend your way out of a recession


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And thus, further evidence of a inability to comprehend what you read.

The statement was made not in the global context, but in that of the current situation, the frame of reference in which the question was asked.

Thanks for proving you can't read. Or at least understand the question. And the question was in a global context. You disagreed that spending cannot.

You disagreed to a global question that you can't spend your way out of A recession. Where did the question ask about THIS recession? It didn't. You are wrong (as usual).
 
Didnt you answer your own question? Reagan built up a military that had been in disarray.

Disarry? Come again? By the early 70s, the US could have stopped the primary threat.

Defense spending went to contractors...not government employees. It required that the contractor PRODUCE an item or items. The contractor had to build things the government wanted. Increase PRODUCT (not service), increase in employers, increase in employees. In that sense the government was the customer.

Therefore, government spending did create jobs. Thanks for admitting your earlier position is wrong.

But that isnt what is being done with the stimulus money. MOST of it is going to 'save' government jobs. MOST of those jobs are at risk because the governments have mismanaged their budgets and tax base.

One mus wonder if you even bothered to look at the stimulus. Care to venture how much of it is for actual products? Unless you think that roads and bridges aren't "real products."

All you have to do is look at your average liberal democrat voter to see that the public school system has dramatically failed. Democrat politicians have worked hard since the 60s creating a dependent class of crippled pets.

Actually, I look at many of the self declared righties here who bash the fed without understanding the term money velocity and realize the public schools are failures.
 
Huh? From an economic perspective, we ARE already out of the recession. The economy grew at its fastest pace in several years in the second half of 2009.

I think it's a false rally; inflated by cost-cutting measures instead of real growth. And don't forget about commercial real estate...

I'm planning on getting out the market once it experiences fast growth, the double-dip will come right after that.

Just a prediction of course...
 
You might want to look into the history of the country...find out what has truly built our economy. It isnt government spending...it is INDUSTRY.

Part of which was built by government spending. Btw, look at South Korea before opening your mouth. China in its modern form as well. You seem to be completely unaware of the relationship between development via industrializing and government spending.

We no longer have amn industrial base for our economy. We have a service base.

Which is normal.

The key trigger for the latest economic downturn was the housing market.

Not really. The housing crisis by itself would not have caused this mess, particularly not a credit crisis. Housing is less then 5% of the economy. If ALL of it went bad AT ONCE, it wouldn't have caused this mess. You are ignoring the issue of extreme leverage behind those who purchased the fradulently rated securization of the mortgages. Without that, we would not be in this mess.

Your less then educated ranting is little more then cheap amusement.
 
Okay genius, tell me, you are stating that government spending for WWII had no impact upon the economy. Furthermore, you are also stating that the rebirth of the German economy prior to WWII was not based on government spending. Furthermore, you are explicitly arguing that China's emergence from its recession had nothing to do with the large stimulus China's government passed.

You can run away now.

You're isolating the government spending from the circumstances under which it was spent. WWII forced virtually every American to produce more and spend more, they also had to ration and sacrifice. You can't just claim that government spending is always going reinvigorate the economy.
 
You're isolating the government spending from the circumstances under which it was spent. WWII forced virtually every American to produce more and spend more, they also had to ration and sacrifice. You can't just claim that government spending is always going reinvigorate the economy.

I never argued that it always will. I just counter the notion that government spending cannot reinvigorate the economy. Goobieman knows he's wrong. He just won't ever admit it.

Will and has there been times such spending as failed? Yes.

But some people here think that government cannot succeed in stimulating the economy via spending ever. Clearly, not college graduates and questionably even high school graduates.
 
Thanks for proving you can't read. Or at least understand the question. And the question was in a global context. You disagreed that spending cannot.

You disagreed to a global question that you can't spend your way out of A recession. Where did the question ask about THIS recession? It didn't. You are wrong (as usual).
Ah -- good to see you're as dishonest as ever.
Not sure why I bothered to respond.
 
Perhaps, but better then having no jobs and no goods.

No, it's actually worse. Because in both situations you have no consumer goods, but at least without that government spending most people will have leisure time which is better than working.

Also remember that the build up of wealth from rationing but high employment caused an explosion in consumer demand when the war ended.

You mean people don't want to save irrationally forever? Interesting.

However, rationing blew, let's not try to glorify that system. People couldn't get the things they wanted. It was only natural that a demand began to build during this time. Did it increase production? Yes, savings increases production. It was only natural that we saw a boom once rationing was lifted. However, was the tradeoff worth it? I don't think so. I'd rather see people decide via their individual time preferences (how much they decide to save in the bank vs. spending it).
 
But some people here think that government cannot succeed in stimulating the economy via spending ever. Clearly, not college graduates and questionably even high school graduates.

And they'd be wrong. They'd be better off arguing the position that the spending, though it can stimulate the economy in the short-term, is not worth it in the long-run.
 
We will wait and see what happens if this is possible,in 1937 the USA cut back
in there spending and what a mess they made of it.
So my good friends i dont no the anwser.

all the best to the The USA, i hope they take the right path what ever it is..

mikeey.
 
I wonder how much of this is due to our basic lack of an industrial base. I mean, if I go to the store and buy some shoes, it is likely that the shoes were made in China by a Japanese-owned company. While some of my money goes to the store and the trucking company, a fair bit of my money is also going to China and Japan. All the money that they don't invest back into American business basically leaks out of the system as I understand it. It seems to me that this is probably one of our bigger problems, but I'm not a huge expert in economics. Just throwing it out there.
 
I wonder how much of this is due to our basic lack of an industrial base. I mean, if I go to the store and buy some shoes, it is likely that the shoes were made in China by a Japanese-owned company. While some of my money goes to the store and the trucking company, a fair bit of my money is also going to China and Japan. All the money that they don't invest back into American business basically leaks out of the system as I understand it. It seems to me that this is probably one of our bigger problems, but I'm not a huge expert in economics. Just throwing it out there.

So what? These places wouldn't do things for us unless we did things for them. Mercantilism died a long time ago.
 
Disarry? Come again? By the early 70s, the US could have stopped the primary threat.



Therefore, government spending did create jobs. Thanks for admitting your earlier position is wrong.



One mus wonder if you even bothered to look at the stimulus. Care to venture how much of it is for actual products? Unless you think that roads and bridges aren't "real products."



Actually, I look at many of the self declared righties here who bash the fed without understanding the term money velocity and realize the public schools are failures.

The US military equipment was out of date and archaic. The defense spending placed an order for aircraft, tanks, ships, equipment. And yes...that caused the creation of jobs. And if the government was doing that today, then we would be having an increase in jobs and a reduction in unemployment.

That is NOT what is happening. The fed is 'just' spending money on programs and offering moeny to governments that are NOT functioning. For example...the fed offered stimulus money to California to pay for 45,000 employees of the University of California school system. Now...why were those 45k jobs at risk? And once trhe stimulus money was spent, arent those 45k jobs STILL at risk? And arent we know just another trillion in real debt in the whole with NO new and sustainable jobs to show for it?

The jobs 'saved' by the stimulus plan end when the money supply ends. They have not created anything-they put off unemoployment for a year and tacked a trillion in debt onto the national debt...and have just raised the debt ceiling yet AGAIN because they KNOW it isnt working. You are either deliberately ignorant or truly too stupid to understand how an economy actually works.

Jobs have to be SUSTAINABLE. The defense spending jobs of the 80s were sustainable, and those NEW employees were consumers...they had every confidence that their jobs were suistainable and their income potential was secure. They became viable consumers.
 
I wonder how much of this is due to our basic lack of an industrial base. I mean, if I go to the store and buy some shoes, it is likely that the shoes were made in China by a Japanese-owned company. While some of my money goes to the store and the trucking company, a fair bit of my money is also going to China and Japan. All the money that they don't invest back into American business basically leaks out of the system as I understand it. It seems to me that this is probably one of our bigger problems, but I'm not a huge expert in economics. Just throwing it out there.

The collapse of our industrial base is THE primary source of our problem.
 
I just counter the notion that government spending cannot reinvigorate the economy.

By itself, or under some set of circumstances?

Will and has there been times such spending as failed? Yes.

But some people here think that government cannot succeed in stimulating the economy via spending ever. Clearly, not college graduates and questionably even high school graduates.

It can stimulate the economy, I agree, but only as a consequence of its psychological effect on consumers and producers. The spending in WWII was accompanied by an extremely potent psychological motivator to produce and consume.

I think there are other, more effective ways to accomplish that without increasing our deficit, empowering government, and creating bubbles.
 
The collapse of our industrial base is THE primary source of our problem.

Wealth is not just stuff. Think about why you pay for a car wash or why you have gardeners. Wealth comes in many forms.
 
Ah -- good to see you're as dishonest as ever.
Not sure why I bothered to respond.

And as expected, Goobieman has no actual argument. I point out how he utterly screwed up and all he can claim is I'm being dishonest.

Let's examine the question. Notice both answers had GENERALLY in them. How Goobieman can expect anyone to think he was answering a specific time question when he answered no to a GENERALLY question is pretty insane.
 
I wonder how much of this is due to our basic lack of an industrial base. I mean, if I go to the store and buy some shoes, it is likely that the shoes were made in China by a Japanese-owned company. While some of my money goes to the store and the trucking company, a fair bit of my money is also going to China and Japan. All the money that they don't invest back into American business basically leaks out of the system as I understand it. It seems to me that this is probably one of our bigger problems, but I'm not a huge expert in economics. Just throwing it out there.

Shoes....require a large amount of hand labor. And the goonions in this country demand far too much money to make it profitable to make a lot of shoes here.
 
Disarry? Come again? By the early 70s, the US could have stopped the primary threat.

Yeah, by reducing the world to a smoking glowing ruin.

We would have had serious, and I mean SERIOUS difficulties using the military that couldn't fly helicopters into Iran in a major military conflict with an industrial power like the Soviet Union.

Therefore, government spending did create jobs. Thanks for admitting your earlier position is wrong.

Ah, this again.

I. THE BROKEN WINDOW

Have you ever witnessed the anger of the good shopkeeper, James B., when his careless son happened to break a square of glass? If you have been present at such a scene, you will most assuredly bear witness to the fact, that every one of the spectators, were there even thirty of them, by common consent apparently, offered the unfortunate owner this invariable consolation - "It is an ill wind that blows nobody good. Everybody must live, and what would become of the glaziers if panes of glass were never broken?"

Now, this form of condolence contains an entire theory, which it will be well to show up in this simple case, seeing that it is precisely the same as that which, unhappily, regulates the greater part of our economical institutions.

Suppose it cost six francs to repair the damage, and you say that the accident brings six francs to the glazier's trade - that it encourages that trade to the amount of six francs - I grant it; I have not a word to say against it; you reason justly. The glazier comes, performs his task, receives his six francs, rubs his hands, and, in his heart, blesses the careless child. All this is that which is seen.

But if, on the other hand, you come to the conclusion, as is too often the case, that it is a good thing to break windows, that it causes money to circulate, and that the encouragement of industry in general will be the result of it, you will oblige me to call out, "Stop there! your theory is confined to that which is seen; it takes no account of that which is not seen."

It is not seen that as our shopkeeper has spent six francs upon one thing, he cannot spend them upon another. It is not seen that if he had not had a window to replace, he would, perhaps, have replaced his old shoes, or added another book to his library. In short, he would have employed his six francs in some way, which this accident has prevented.

Let us take a view of industry in general, as affected by this circumstance. The window being broken, the glazier's trade is encouraged to the amount of six francs; this is that which is seen. If the window had not been broken, the shoemaker's trade (or some other) would have been encouraged to the amount of six francs; this is that which is not seen.

And if that which is not seen is taken into consideration, because it is a negative fact, as well as that which is seen, because it is a positive fact, it will be understood that neither industry in general, nor the sum total of national labour, is affected, whether windows are broken or not.

Now let us consider James B. himself. In the former supposition, that of the window being broken, he spends six francs, and has neither more nor less than he had before, the enjoyment of a window.

In the second, where we suppose the window not to have been broken, he would have spent six francs on shoes, and would have had at the same time the enjoyment of a pair of shoes and of a window.

Now, as James B. forms a part of society, we must come to the conclusion, that, taking it altogether, and making an estimate of its enjoyments and its labours, it has lost the value of the broken window.

When we arrive at this unexpected conclusion: "Society loses the value of things which are uselessly destroyed;" and we must assent to a maxim which will make the hair of protectionists stand on end - To break, to spoil, to waste, is not to encourage national labour; or, more briefly, "destruction is not profit."

What will you say, Monsieur Industriel -- what will you say, disciples of good M. F. Chamans, who has calculated with so much precision how much trade would gain by the burning of Paris, from the number of houses it would be necessary to rebuild?

I am sorry to disturb these ingenious calculations, as far as their spirit has been introduced into our legislation; but I beg him to begin them again, by taking into the account that which is not seen, and placing it alongside of that which is seen. The reader must take care to remember that there are not two persons only, but three concerned in the little scene which I have submitted to his attention. One of them, James B., represents the consumer, reduced, by an act of destruction, to one enjoyment instead of two. Another under the title of the glazier, shows us the producer, whose trade is encouraged by the accident. The third is the shoemaker (or some other tradesman), whose labour suffers proportionably by the same cause. It is this third person who is always kept in the shade, and who, personating that which is not seen, is a necessary element of the problem. It is he who shows us how absurd it is to think we see a profit in an act of destruction. It is he who will soon teach us that it is not less absurd to see a profit in a restriction, which is, after all, nothing else than a partial destruction. Therefore, if you will only go to the root of all the arguments which are adduced in its favour, all you will find will be the paraphrase of this vulgar saying - What would become of the glaziers, if nobody ever broke windows?

Defense spending is the broken glass. What could the people have bought for themselves if they weren't required to build weapons that in themselves can't build anything else? However, national defense is at least a defensible proposition. It's the reason the government was established.

Welfare is more broken glass. What could the tax payers have bought if the government hadn't stolen their money to give to the useless....especially since the government has to spend a huge sum simply paying people to sort out the useless and allocate the money? Yet there's no Constitutional authority to do this.

One mus wonder if you even bothered to look at the stimulus. Care to venture how much of it is for actual products? Unless you think that roads and bridges aren't "real products."

The only products that scam of a bill exists to produce is votes for Democrat Congressmen and Senators.

Those aren't "real" products.

Ain't a single bridge in the country that can't be paid for by tolls or gasoline taxes.

If the legislators would stop stealing fuel tax revenues to fund socialist nonsense.

What happens when a legislator gets money? Well, taking the case of the "Tobacco Settlement", the state of California allocated nearly four dollars of new spending for each expected dollar of revenue.

Gee, that was a big surprise, wasn't it?

How about if we stop asking government to do anything besides standing on the side of the road with their thumb out. Motorists who don't want to give those thieves a lift shouldn't be forced to at gun point, as they are today.

Actually, I look at many of the self declared righties here who bash the fed without understanding the term money velocity and realize the public schools are failures.

All the righties know public schools are failures. Public schools only exist today as mind-warping centers to produce more leftists. Not working for my kids of course, because most of us righties require our children to learn how to think.
 
And as expected, Goobieman has no actual argument. I point out how he utterly screwed up and all he can claim is I'm being dishonest.
Truth hurts, eh?
 
Put it on a personal level:

If you were in a deep recession and had limited money, would you jump up and run to Wal-Mart and buy all the new gadgets you could to get out?

So why in the hell do you think having the government spend our way out would be any different?
 
Put it on a personal level:

If you were in a deep recession and had limited money, would you jump up and run to Wal-Mart and buy all the new gadgets you could to get out?

So why in the hell do you think having the government spend our way out would be any different?

The rationale is more in line of: "If you were in a deep recession and had limited money, would you jump up and run to Wal-Mart and buy" materials so you can make a product and sell for more than you spent, hopefully. That's why any "stimulus" has to be selective about the type of spending: it at least has to add jobs to the economy.
 
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