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Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

  • Total voters
    51
American said:
The only problem with that is that when the kids go to multiculturalism class the good teacher will teach the definition of the subject and explain its significance, while the bad teacher will have the students get out their prayer rugs during Kwanzaa while while she talks about how Jesus was born a bastard.
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When did Mary marry Joseph?

Before or after Jesus's birth

If after ( I cant remember it has been a long time) then he was a bastard
 
Catawba said:
That has not been the case in Virginia. In Virginia the biggest problem is attracting and retaining the best teachers because the pay and benefits are so crappy.
And it would be even worse without a teachers association.
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But the teacher's association is not fighting on behalf of improving the Virginian education system, they're fighting on behalf of the existing teachers. You may believe that their goals overlap, but they are by no means the same.

No one elected the teachers' union, but the voters did elect the government which sets the pay/benefits for those teachers. If things would really be that much worse without the teachers' union, the voters could always throw the bums out in the next election and replace them with someone who would increase the pay/benefits for teachers.
 
Kandahar said:
But the teacher's association is not fighting on behalf of improving the Virginian education system, they're fighting on behalf of the existing teachers. You may believe that their goals overlap, but they are by no means the same.

No one elected the teachers' union, but the voters did elect the government which sets the pay/benefits for those teachers. If things would really be that much worse without the teachers' union, the voters could always throw the bums out in the next election and replace them with someone who would increase the pay/benefits for teachers.
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The teachers hire the union, pay their salaries, and are, in effect, their collective boss. If the union isn't doing its job, which is to represent their employers, the teachers, then they can be replaced.

The voters can't throw the bums out, as the voters don't elect them. The union is not a government entity.
 
Dittohead not! said:
OK, so I'm coming in late to this thread. Maybe what I'm about to post has already been posted.

Too bad.

I was a member of the California Teacher's Association for many years, served as chapter president a couple of terms, and as negotiator for the union for several years.

I also served for six years as an administrator, sitting on the other side of the table.

Not that it matters, but I do have some experience with at least one teacher's union.

The union's job is to improve salary and working conditions for teachers, pure and simple. They don't improve the school, except by making the teachers more content with their lot.

The notion that a teacher can not be fired is just that, a notion. A teacher can be fired for cause, just not for getting crosswise with the administration.

Sometimes, the administration deserves to be opposed.

I personally would not go into a classroom without the backing of the union, no way. For one thing, all a student has to do is accuse the teacher of inappropriate conduct, and it costs all of that teacher's savings and then some to defend a court case, even if there is nothing to the accusation at all. The district is not going to stand behind a teacher, but the union will. For another, the administration can get abusive, and the union is the only entity that can back up a teacher.

Not only that, but there is the issue of collective bargaining. Teacher salaries aren't exactly on a par with the CEOs, but they are a lot better than they would be without the union.

Yes, dealing with the union can be a pain sometimes, but in balance, the unions are a good thing.

I do and did oppose the requirement to be a member of the NEA in order to be a member of the state union. The NEA doesn't do much other than support liberal causes that the members often disagree with.
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How do you feel about employers being forced into collective bargaining by the government?
 
Kandahar said:
That might be true for individual students. The best teacher in the world won't be able to help a student who simply doesn't care. However, merit pay need not be based on individual students. Most teachers have classes of 25-30 students. If one teacher's students as a whole consistently outperform another teacher's students as a whole (after taking into account how smart the classes were BEFORE the school year), I think it's fair to say that one teacher is measurably better than the other.

This is a good point. Not all students learn the same way, and a teacher who is great at working with students with specific personalities/abilities might not be good at working with other students. So measuring the quality of education from one student to another is very important too, in addition to measuring the average performance of the students in a teacher's class.

Fortunately, the information technology exists where we can tell who is good at dealing with gifted children, who is good at dealing with problem children, and who is terrible. It's just a matter of utilizing it. Average student data is effective at telling who is a good teacher (or at least who is a good teacher for the classes they're teaching), and adjusting merit pay accordingly. Individual student data is effective at matching a student with the teacher who is the best fit for him/her.
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In the merit pay system, what teacher will welcome problem students? What teacher would volunteer to accept students with learning disabilities? Why would any teacher want to teach any other student except the "good" students? All teachers would want to teach AP courses. There's no incentive to teach all students.

Furthermore, if improvement was all that was needed, won't teachers just grade more leniently, resulting in inflated GPA scores? What other "average student data" are you referring to if not grades?
 
Lightdemon said:
In the merit pay system, what teacher will welcome problem students? What teacher would volunteer to accept students with learning disabilities? Why would any teacher want to teach any other student except the "good" students? All teachers would want to teach AP courses. There's no incentive to teach all students.

Furthermore, if improvement was all that was needed, won't teachers just grade more leniently, resulting in inflated GPA scores? What other "average student data" are you referring to if not grades?
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There is a statistically equitable way to determine a teacher's merit. First of all, they should be graded on a scale, and secondly, they should eliminate students who are X standard deviations outside the average from statistical consideration; that way, extremely bright students and extremely stupid students wouldn't be factored into their averages. That way, the comparisons would be between all teachers' core averages.
 
Ethereal said:
How do you feel about employers being forced into collective bargaining by the government?
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I'm not sure. That never happened in our district. As far as I know, it hasn't happened in California.

The employer is forced into collective bargaining by the union, which is determined by a vote of the employees. The government doesn't force employers into collective bargaining, at least not here.
 
Ethereal said:
There is a statistically equitable way to determine a teacher's merit. First of all, they should be graded on a scale, and secondly, they should eliminate students who are X standard deviations outside the average from statistical consideration; that way, extremely bright students and extremely stupid students wouldn't be factored into their averages. That way, the comparisons would be between all teachers' core averages.
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If we're going with standard deviations, then who would teach inner city schools? But more importantly, what exactly is being measured here? Grades? Learning styles? What?
 
Dittohead not! said:
I'm not sure. That never happened in our district. As far as I know, it hasn't happened in California.

The employer is forced into collective bargaining by the union, which is determined by a vote of the employees. The government doesn't force employers into collective bargaining, at least not here.
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Under California law, the employer is obligated (among several other things) to negotiate with the union.

CHAPTER 10 MEYERS-MILIAS-BROWN ACT

LOCAL PUBLIC EMPLOYEE ORGANIZATIONS

3543.5. Interference with employees' rights prohibited

It is unlawful for a public school employer to do any of the following:

(a) Impose or threaten to impose reprisals on employees, to discriminate or threaten to discriminate against employees, or otherwise to interfere with, restrain, or coerce employees because of their exercise of rights guaranteed by this chapter. For purposes of this subdivision, "employee" includes an applicant for employment or reemployment.

(b) Deny to employee organizations rights guaranteed to them by this chapter.

(c) Refuse or fail to meet and negotiate in good faith with an exclusive representative. Knowingly providing an exclusive representative with inaccurate information, whether or not in response to a request for information, regarding the financial resources of the public school employer constitutes a refusal or failure to meet and negotiate in good faith.

(d) Dominate or interfere with the formation or administration of any employee organization, or contribute financial or other support to it, or in any way encourage employees to join any organization in preference to another.

(e) Refuse to participate in good faith in the impasse procedure set forth in Article 9 (commencing with Section 3548).

PERB: Public Employment Relations Board - Laws
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I emboldened the relevant text and hyper-linked the qualifying clauses in regards to "rights" and "impasse".
 
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Kandahar said:
But the teacher's association is not fighting on behalf of improving the Virginian education system,
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Wrong:

"LEGISLATION TO INITIATE OR SUPPORT
Full and honest rebenchmarking of the Standards of Quality (SOQ)

When Virginia ranks 37th in the nation in per-pupil state funding for K-12 education, no permanent structural changes should be made to the SOQ. The rebenchmarking should exclude the "support cap" and other efforts to permanently cut K-12 funding.
Funding the Standards of Quality tax initiative

The Virginia Constitution calls on the General Assembly to "ensure that an educational program of high quality is … continually maintained." The VEA will introduce a tax proposal to provide the funds to keep this promise to Virginia's children.
Expand programs and initiatives to raise high school completion rates

The first step in moving our schools toward excellence, and the best course for our Commonwealth's future, is to increase high school completion rates. This is a cost-effective investment in today's students to lower future incarceration and dependence and to ensure future productivity.

VEA proposes increasing support for the following research-based interventions to reach that goal:

*
Virginia Preschool Initiative
*
Comprehensive School Reform
*
Enhanced Career and Technical Education (Fine Arts - STEM)
*
Increased teacher participation in instructional decisions
*
Dropout prevention
*
Class size reduction
*
Increased salaries for education professionals and expanded existing scholarship loan programs"
2010 VEA Legislative Agenda

No one elected the teachers' union,
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Uh, wrong again, Association officers are elected:
Powered by Google Docs


You do realize that most fields have their own professional organizations don't you?
 
Lightdemon said:
In the merit pay system, what teacher will welcome problem students? What teacher would volunteer to accept students with learning disabilities? Why would any teacher want to teach any other student except the "good" students? All teachers would want to teach AP courses. There's no incentive to teach all students.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't be difficult to design an algorithm to measure how the student was performing prior to the school year. If a teacher was assigned to a dumb class, where the average student previously learned only 0.8 years of material per year, then it would be considered good if the students learned 1.0 years of material per year under this teacher's watch.

Conversely, if a teacher was assigned to an advanced class, where the average student was learning 1.5 years of material per year, the teacher would not be considered good if they only learned 1.0 years of material under this teacher's watch.

Lightdemon said:
Furthermore, if improvement was all that was needed, won't teachers just grade more leniently, resulting in inflated GPA scores? What other "average student data" are you referring to if not grades?
Click to expand...

Standardized test scores would be the most universal and objective measure.
 
Lightdemon said:
If we're going with standard deviations, then who would teach inner city schools? But more importantly, what exactly is being measured here? Grades? Learning styles? What?
Click to expand...

Average grades would be measured relative to other teachers (on scale) within the respective school, not within the district or the state. That way you would eliminate the disparity between demographics and localities. Eliminating students from the data set who fall X amount of standard deviations outside the average would provide a more accurate picture of the teacher's competence relative to the rest of the school.

I'd give you a mathematical example of what I was talking about but it would take me forever to explain...:2razz:
 
Catawba said:
Average teacher salaries are in the $30,000 to $40,000 range in the US.


Substitute teachers here are payed $75 a day.

This what you think is well paid for one of the most important jobs for the future success of our country.
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Considering the fact that many of them don't work a full year and don't produce anything, that's pretty damn good and more than I make.

Sub's are a joke job, $75 is to much in my opinion.
 
Catawba said:
Wrong:

"LEGISLATION TO INITIATE OR SUPPORT
Full and honest rebenchmarking of the Standards of Quality (SOQ)

When Virginia ranks 37th in the nation in per-pupil state funding for K-12 education, no permanent structural changes should be made to the SOQ. The rebenchmarking should exclude the "support cap" and other efforts to permanently cut K-12 funding.
Funding the Standards of Quality tax initiative

The Virginia Constitution calls on the General Assembly to "ensure that an educational program of high quality is … continually maintained." The VEA will introduce a tax proposal to provide the funds to keep this promise to Virginia's children.
Expand programs and initiatives to raise high school completion rates

The first step in moving our schools toward excellence, and the best course for our Commonwealth's future, is to increase high school completion rates. This is a cost-effective investment in today's students to lower future incarceration and dependence and to ensure future productivity.

VEA proposes increasing support for the following research-based interventions to reach that goal:

*
Virginia Preschool Initiative
*
Comprehensive School Reform
*
Enhanced Career and Technical Education (Fine Arts - STEM)
*
Increased teacher participation in instructional decisions
*
Dropout prevention
*
Class size reduction
*
Increased salaries for education professionals and expanded existing scholarship loan programs"
2010 VEA Legislative Agenda
Click to expand...

Most of those goals basically boil down to "Give schools more money." And NONE of them are anything that would remotely hurt any members of the union itself...and in most cases, benefit the members of the union.

Whenever the union's interests align with the public interest, it is purely coincidental (and therefore the union isn't necessary). And whenever the union's interests are at odds with the public interest, you can bet that the union will pursue their own agenda.

Lightdemon said:
Uh, wrong again, Association officers are elected:
Powered by Google Docs
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Not by the voters, who have a primary interest in the education system.

Lightdemon said:
You do realize that most fields have their own professional organizations don't you?
Click to expand...

A professional organization is one thing. Strong-arming public officials (and by extension, strong-arming the voters) into policies that reward their members at the expense of the public is a different matter entirely.
 
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Kandahar said:
It wouldn't be difficult to design an algorithm to measure how the student was performing prior to the school year. If a teacher was assigned to a dumb class, where the average student previously learned only 0.8 years of material per year, then it would be considered good if the students learned 1.0 years of material per year under this teacher's watch.

Conversely, if a teacher was assigned to an advanced class, where the average student was learning 1.5 years of material per year, the teacher would not be considered good if they only learned 1.0 years of material under this teacher's watch.

Standardized test scores would be the most universal and objective measure.
Click to expand...

All of this is under the assumption that student output is the same as teacher output. As I pointed out, it just isn't that simple. What if the student's parents are undergoing a divorce? What if one of their relatives had died? What if their boyfriend/girlfriend broke up with them during testing week?There can be any number of reasons that a student may not do well that is not related to what a teacher has to offer in their classroom. This alone shows us how vulnerable a teacher can be. Why should my job security depend on my students parents divorce, or their relationship with other students, etc?

Secondly, standardized testing is not a good way to assess a students ability to learn. Standardized tests are designed to make sure the content standards are followed. It is not designed to assess a students ability to think critically, use analytical skills, and it certainly doesn't show the teaching style nor the effectiveness of the teacher. This is not an appropriate use for standardized testing.
 
Ethereal said:
Average grades would be measured relative to other teachers (on scale) within the respective school, not within the district or the state. That way you would eliminate the disparity between demographics and localities. Eliminating students from the data set who fall X amount of standard deviations outside the average would provide a more accurate picture of the teacher's competence relative to the rest of the school.

I'd give you a mathematical example of what I was talking about but it would take me forever to explain...:2razz:
Click to expand...

student's grades does not reflect a teacher's effectiveness in pedagogy. There are brilliant teachers at inner city schools, but it wont be reflected in the students grades. Similarly, there are students who are brilliant and will get top grades even if their teacher is incompetent.

You're still operating under the assumption that student output is a direct correlation to the teacher's output. This is the main flaw in merit pay. The confounding variables are not just mathematical obstacles. It's a flaw in theory.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Considering the fact that many of them don't work a full year and don't produce anything, that's pretty damn good and more than I make.

Sub's are a joke job, $75 is to much in my opinion.
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Thank you for explaining where you are coming from.
 
Catawba said:
Thank you for explaining where you are coming from.
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Well, I just have to tell it how I see it.

There are some damn fine teachers but all that is for not, if the students, parents et all don't give a crap.

You can't erect schools and expect everyone to magically want to be educated.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Considering the fact that many of them don't work a full year and don't produce anything, that's pretty damn good and more than I make.

Sub's are a joke job, $75 is to much in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Except we don't get paid to bring our work back home. I have to work off the clock to create lesson plans, grade papers, call parents, etc. I work off the clock on average of 2-3 hours a day depending on how much homework I give out, and whether or not there was a test this week. Do I get paid overtime? No. Do I get any compensation for it? No.

And if I had a choice, I rather work during the summer. I have to save up enough money throughout the year so I can break even in those horrible 3 months of no income.

It is NOT "pretty damn good."
 
Lightdemon said:
Except we don't get paid to bring our work back home. I have to work off the clock to create lesson plans, grade papers, call parents, etc. I work off the clock on average of 2-3 hours a day depending on how much homework I give out, and whether or not there was a test this week. Do I get paid overtime? No. Do I get any compensation for it? No.

And if I had a choice, I rather work during the summer. I have to save up enough money throughout the year so I can break even in those horrible 3 months of no income.

It is NOT "pretty damn good."
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Everyone has to do that though, it's not limited to just teachers.

I work a ton of overtime just to make 25k a year, and I'm usually out of my house doing something for work 12 hours a day but I'm only getting paid for 10 of it.

Plus if they pay is so ****ty, why do you guys become teachers in the first place?
It's not like it's a secret of what the job pays.
 
Kandahar said:
All of those goals basically boil down to "Give schools more money."
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It sounds to me like your interest is a selfish one that does not place a priority on education and the benefits that provides to the future of our country.

But, you could prove me wrong by explaining how you would address each of these Virginia Education Assoc. goals without funding,


Virginia Preschool Initiative?

Comprehensive School Reform??

Enhanced Career and Technical Education (Fine Arts - STEM)?

Increased teacher participation in instructional decisions?

Dropout prevention?

Class size reduction?



A professional organization is one thing. Strong-arming public officials (and by extension, strong-arming the voters) into policies that reward their members at the expense of the public is a different matter entirely.
Click to expand...

That is entirely your perception, and not one based on reality.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Everyone has to do that though, it's not limited to just teachers.

I work a ton of overtime just to make 25k a year, and I'm usually out of my house doing something for work 12 hours a day but I'm only getting paid for 10 of it.

Plus if they pay is so ****ty, why do you guys become teachers in the first place?
It's not like it's a secret of what the job pays.
Click to expand...

I'm not in it for the money, but to deny that teachers get paid like crap is ridiculous. For all the schooling and training that one goes through to become a teacher, a 30-40k salary is insulting.

I do it because I like my community. I teach where I live, and I want to give back to my community.
 
Lightdemon said:
student's grades does not reflect a teacher's effectiveness in pedagogy. There are brilliant teachers at inner city schools, but it wont be reflected in the students grades. Similarly, there are students who are brilliant and will get top grades even if their teacher is incompetent.

You're still operating under the assumption that student output is a direct correlation to the teacher's output. This is the main flaw in merit pay. The confounding variables are not just mathematical obstacles. It's a flaw in theory.
Click to expand...

You misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not sure I could explain it to you unless you were somewhat comfortable with statistical analysis.
 
Lightdemon said:
I'm not in it for the money, but to deny that teachers get paid like crap is ridiculous. For all the schooling and training that one goes through to become a teacher, a 30-40k salary is insulting.
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But lots of people go through similar types of training and earn similar types of salaries.
It's not limited to teachers and however noble ones intentions are, that is what the job pays.

When you accept the job offer, you accept the pay.
There should be no crying after the fact.

Lightdemon said:
I do it because I like my community. I teach where I live, and I want to give back to my community.
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That's noble of you but in the end you wouldn't do it, if it didn't pay enough.
 
Ethereal said:
You misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not sure I could explain it to you unless you were somewhat comfortable with statistical analysis.
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I think I'll manage. I did my fair share of statistical analysis when I did my BA in psychology.
 
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