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Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

  • Total voters
    51
Rassales said:
I'm sure her study is correct. My point would be that things are getting worse in this area, with districts preferring to pay for commercially-available plans or local administrative consultants rather than facilitating the development of effective planning by teachers. I've found little research to show that scripted instruction improves student learning, but there is research to show that student performance improves when teachers at the school level cooperate to design curriculum.

I have a couple of other concerns about this trend as well. First, high school dropouts report that "being bored" and "not learning anything" are the primary reasons they leave school--that's more likely to happen in a less-challenging-curriculum situation. Maye lower SES kids drop out more because of how we're teaching them.

Also, public schools are supposed to be leveling--they aren't supposed to reproduce the same class relations that already existed, which the research you cite tends to suggest.
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That's the result of having our public schools paid for by our Property Taxes. Property value > Property Taxes > School funding > type of classes > type of students > type of worker > type of income > property value, and repeat.

SES is a major factor in determining all of this. It determines the health of the student (as in health insurance), the home atmosphere, type of parents, it's neighborhood, it's school, etc etc. It is most definitely a cycle.

Public schools will not level off as long as property taxes is what pays for our public schools.

Third, the economy of the future requires workers with greater skills. We need what Robert Reich calls "symbolic analysts," which requires higher-order thinking skills for the majority, not just the few.

Finally, good teaching depends substantially on the engagement of the teacher. Bored teachers are bad teachers. Powerless teachers are bad teachers. This method actually shifts public funds away from teachers (who don't need the same level of training if all they do is follow someone else's plan) and toward the private corporations that produce textbooks and lesson plans.
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Can you talk more about the method you are referring to? Describe it.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
We have an education system and yet we have a lot of functionally illiterate people.
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Because it has not been a priority. For example, a hedge fund manager with the same education as a high school teacher, can earn hundreds of times more than a high school teacher.

You are not going to attract the best and brightest when we as a society place a lower priority on compensation for teachers. And we cannot cure illiteracy without providing quality education for all, as well as addressing the socioeconomic reasons behind illiteracy.
 
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Catawba said:
Because it has not been a priority. For example, a hedge fund manager with the same education as a high school teacher, can earn hundreds of times more than a high school teacher.
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That's because he's more valuable.

Value is measured by ability, not education.

Catawba said:
You are not going to attract the best and brightest when we as a society place a lower priority on compensation for teachers.
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Those who can, do.

Those who can't, teach.

You're never going to get "the best and brightest" to teach. It's more fun doing.
 
Catawba said:
Because it has not been a priority. For example, a hedge fund manager with the same education as a high school teacher, can earn hundreds of times more than a high school teacher.

You are not going to attract the best and brightest when we as a society place a lower priority on compensation for teachers.
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Teachers, generally, get paid well.

Different jobs have different pressures you never think about.
How would you feel if you placed a bad trade and lost you investors millions of dollars?

Education is over funded, roughly 10k per year per student on average.
Sorry but it isn't working well for the money spent.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
That's because he's more valuable.
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That's a perfect example of the lowered priority for education in this country that has allowed us to slip behind other countries.

Thanks!
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Teachers, generally, get paid well.
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Average teacher salaries are in the $30,000 to $40,000 range in the US.


Substitute teachers here are payed $75 a day.

This what you think is well paid for one of the most important jobs for the future success of our country.
 
Lightdemon said:
That's the result of having our public schools paid for by our Property Taxes. Property value > Property Taxes > School funding > type of classes > type of students > type of worker > type of income > property value, and repeat.

SES is a major factor in determining all of this. It determines the health of the student (as in health insurance), the home atmosphere, type of parents, it's neighborhood, it's school, etc etc. It is most definitely a cycle.

Public schools will not level off as long as property taxes is what pays for our public schools.
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All true. I would hope that in a place like California, where tax receipts are remitted to the state and then redistributed, that the leveling I'm talking about would be more prevalent. But perhaps not.
Can you talk more about the method you are referring to? Describe it.
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Sure. I'm talking about when the teachers in particular subject and grade levels meet together to coordinate their curricula together so that they are determining TOGETHER what will be taught and how. They create these frameworks themselves and stick to them for a year, then reevaluate. This way, teachers are invested in what they're doing more than when the curriculum is handed to them, but they aren't each completely independent, reporting only to a department chair or principal.

This way, all the teachers can learn from the expertise of each other. They create a situation where students talk to each other about what they are learning, across classes, improving the school as a culture of learning. Sometimes teachers even collaborate across subjects, so student learn different aspects of the same topic in social studies and English, for example.

The key is collaboration between respected professionals rather than the imposition of a curriculum from an outside source.
 
Catawba said:
Average teacher salaries are in the $30,000 to $40,000 range in the US.
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Public school teachers continue to be paid less than any other profession for which a college degree is a minimum qualification. And their pay in relation to national per capita GNP is quite low compared to other countries (while they actually work more hours per year than in any other nation).

It's pretty reasonable that someone from Georgia would believe that teachers are well-paid. Here's a list of states in order of "comfort index" for teachers. This index is a comparison between cost of living and average teacher salary. Georgia ranks third:

1. Illinois
2. Delaware
3. Georgia
4. Michigan
5. Pennsylvania
6. Ohio
7. Texas
8. Indiana
9. Tennessee
10. Minnesota
11. Arkansas
12. Colorado
13. Alabama
14. Oregon
15. Kentucky
16. Missouri
17. Nebraska
18. Oklahoma
19. Mississippi
20. Louisiana
21. Kansas
22. Connecticut
23. North Carolina
24. South Carolina
25. Virginia
26. Florida
27. Wyoming
28. Wisconsin
29. New Mexico
30. Alaska
31. Iowa
32. Washington
33. Idaho
34. Massachusetts
35. Arizona
36. New Jersey
37. Maryland
38. New York
39. Utah
40. West Virginia
41. South Dakota
42. Rhode Island
43. North Dakota
44. California
45. Nevada
46. Montana
47. Maine
48. New Hampshire
49. Vermont
50. Hawaii
 
Catawba said:
That's a perfect example of the lowered priority for education in this country that has allowed us to slip behind other countries.

Thanks!
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Fact of the matter is, not everyone can be a hedge fund manager.

Practically anyone can teach a kid how to read, and most parents do a better job that most schools. Both my kids were reading before they went to kindergarten.

Practially anyone can teach a child arithmatic, and parents that make the effort do a vastly better job than a goonionized teacher.

I'll trust my ability to teach my kids the truth about the Constitution and American history over any just about any mass-produced employee in the Propaganda Factories. After all, I won't lie to my child.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Fact of the matter is, not everyone can be a hedge fund manager.

Practically anyone can teach a kid how to read, and most parents do a better job that most schools. Both my kids were reading before they went to kindergarten.

Practially anyone can teach a child arithmatic, and parents that make the effort do a vastly better job than a goonionized teacher.

I'll trust my ability to teach my kids the truth about the Constitution and American history over any just about any mass-produced employee in the Propaganda Factories. After all, I won't lie to my child.
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true, just crooks.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
I'm all for unions, when the following conditions are met:

1) The employer owns the job, hence gets to decide who works where, and who gets fired. Non-performing workers, including incompetent teachers, can be fired at any time. The city of New York has hundreds of teachers paid full salary while basically in "detention", because they're not allowed to teach students.
Agreed
2) Employers can permanently replace people who are supposed to be working but are out on the sidewalk marching in circles carrying signs.
Disagree
3) Criminal charges are filed and prosecuted for every act of violence any union member engages in.
Already are if its Criminal
4) Union elections are by sealed secret ballot only.
Agreed
5) Workers at a company have the freedom to not be in the union.
Fine but they get reduced pay and benefits and no representation then or else I will disagree
6) Union dues are collected for political purposes are subject to refund to the union member when the union endorses and finances political candidates the union member opposes. Union members should receive a quarterly statement specifying exactly where their dues money goes, so the political activities can be seen.
Agreed to a point but then dues will go up
Then I'll support unions.
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Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Fact of the matter is, not everyone can be a hedge fund manager.

Practically anyone can teach a kid how to read, and most parents do a better job that most schools. Both my kids were reading before they went to kindergarten.

Practially anyone can teach a child arithmatic, and parents that make the effort do a vastly better job than a goonionized teacher.

I'll trust my ability to teach my kids the truth about the Constitution and American history over any just about any mass-produced employee in the Propaganda Factories. After all, I won't lie to my child.
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No you will just give them your version of reality and priorities that you have expressed here! :shock:

Be afraid kids, be very afraid!
 
Yup, in California, the average teacher makes nearly $60k, thanks to their absurd union. And no, they don't deserve it.
 
pugetsoundwa said:
Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
I'm all for unions, when the following conditions are met:

2) Employers can permanently replace people who are supposed to be working but are out on the sidewalk marching in circles carrying signs.
pugetsoundwa said:
Disagree
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Employers hire employees to WORK, not play on the sidewalk. If an employee does not wish to do the work, as is his freedom to choose to do, then the employer should have the freedom to allow the former employee to spend all the time he wants playing on the sidewalk. Since the employer will have to hire someone else who does want to work, there's no reason the man playing on the sidewalk should expect to have a job to do when he gets tired of playing.

After all, it's the employer's job, not the employee's.

3) Criminal charges are filed and prosecuted for every act of violence any union member engages in.

pugetsoundwa said:
Already are if its Criminal
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How many goonioneers were arrested and prosecuted for assualting citizens speaking out at last summer's anti-Messiah Care meetings with their Congressthings?

5) Workers at a company have the freedom to not be in the union.
pugetsoundwa said:
Fine but they get reduced pay and benefits and no representation then or else I will disagree
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You are aware that it's not your money, but the money the employer chooses to pay, right? Who are you to dictate what others choose to pay for services performed, and what others choose to accept for performing those services?

6) Union dues are collected for political purposes are subject to refund to the union member when the union endorses and finances political candidates the union member opposes. Union members should receive a quarterly statement specifying exactly where their dues money goes, so the political activities can be seen.
pugetsoundwa said:
Agreed to a point but then dues will go up
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Dues will go up if goonion members aren't charged for goonion political activities they disagree with?

This some kind of Magical Mystical Messiah Mathematics, like the kind that claims the government can pick up thirty million uninsured people and not spend more money?
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Catawba said:
No you will just give them your version of reality and priorities that you have expressed here! :shock:

Be afraid kids, be very afraid!
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Yes, I'll tell them the truth, since the truth is my version of reality.

Ya think maybe I should make sure they get into schools where the teachers force the kids to sing "Obama mmmm mmmm mmmmm"?
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
pugetsoundwa said:
Dues will go up if goonion members aren't charged for goonion political activities they disagree with?

This some kind of Magical Mystical Messiah Mathematics, like the kind that claims the government can pick up thirty million uninsured people and not spend more money?
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Nice spin, I was talking about the quarterly statement costing money to report,print and mail. That would cost money.
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pugetsoundwa said:
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Nice spin, I was talking about the quarterly statement costing money to report,print and mail. That would cost money.
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Your failure to clearly state your ideas isn't "spin" on my part, it's your failure.

The cost of printing such statements is minor, and if someone wants to be in a goonion, he should pay for it.
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Unions are what made America strong, its odd but not surprising that Repubs hate them although we all benefit from having had them in the fabric of America...Buy Union...Look for the Union Label...
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Fact of the matter is, not everyone can be a hedge fund manager.

Practically anyone can teach a kid how to read, and most parents do a better job that most schools. Both my kids were reading before they went to kindergarten.
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Mine too, but only because they are surrounded by books and print and people reading. That's not true for the majority of children.
Practially anyone can teach a child arithmatic, and parents that make the effort do a vastly better job than a goonionized teacher.
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Maybe, but the academic requirements for 7-12 grade math teachers in my state START with calculus and go up from there.

I'm not sure ANYONE can teach their child to read and write, certainly not to the end of 10th grade. Parents with sufficient education can (but only about 25% of American adults have college degrees). Of course, people with the right education can be hedge-fund managers, too.

But you're talking about teaching your own child, one-on-one. Public school teachers have to educate other people's children, 30 or so at a time. A very different thing.

If teaching were so easy, so well paid, and such a great scam, more people would do it. Fact: it takes 3-5 years to become an effective teacher, but about half of those who enter the profession at the training stage quit and do something else before the end of their fifth year teaching.

I'll trust my ability to teach my kids the truth about the Constitution and American history over any just about any mass-produced employee in the Propaganda Factories. After all, I won't lie to my child.
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All you're really saying here is that you'd teach them in light of your own political views. That's your right, but you can't expect an institution that everyone pays for to teach YOUR values to everyone.
 
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Cephus said:
Yup, in California, the average teacher makes nearly $60k, thanks to their absurd union. And no, they don't deserve it.
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California teachers face one problem not common throughout the states--the number of limited English proficiency students. Take a look at the API scores of any set of schools, then compare the percentage of students in poverty and the percentage of English language learners. There's a remarkable correspondence between those numbers.

I will say that California teachers take a larger percentage of school appropriations than is true in other states (i.e., teacher salaries are greater in comparison to other expenses like supplies, property upkeep, etc.).
 
ALL unions are good AND bad... wroking conditions and such are improved, but dead weight can be hard to get rid off. For people to be against unions completely is nuts, it is as if they have no idea what conditions were like prior to unions. Can unions be monsters and is there a negative side, yes. Was life better before unions in the Industrial Revolution and in places like China or Indonesia now... **** no. It is, as with most things, about balance.
 
Originally Posted by Cephus
Yup, in California, the average teacher makes nearly $60k, thanks to their absurd union. And no, they don't deserve it.
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Are you factoring in cost of living to your disgust, because I taught in CA and made close to that amount and we lived pretty meagerly...
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
I'm all for unions, when the following conditions are met:

1) The employer owns the job, hence gets to decide who works where, and who gets fired. Non-performing workers, including incompetent teachers, can be fired at any time. The city of New York has hundreds of teachers paid full salary while basically in "detention", because they're not allowed to teach students.
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The right to strike is pretty central to labor law. Without it, employees have pretty much no leverage over their employers. The conditions of workers before the right to strike was established were pretty bad. Do you really want to go back to those days?
2) Employers can permanently replace people who are supposed to be working but are out on the sidewalk marching in circles carrying signs.
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See above.
3) Criminal charges are filed and prosecuted for every act of violence any union member engages in.
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Criminal acts are criminal acts. Let's make sure that employers are also charged when the violence is on their side. One of the reasons unions ended up with the "goon" reputation you like to propound here is that employers hired their own goons to break up lawful strikes (ever hear of the Pinkertons?).
4) Union elections are by sealed secret ballot only.
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Agreed.
5) Workers at a company have the freedom to not be in the union.
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Mostly true now. Some workers are required to pay for those elements of union activity from which they benefit (collective bargaining, conflict resolution) but they mostly don't have to be members or pay full dues.
6) Union dues are collected for political purposes are subject to refund to the union member when the union endorses and finances political candidates the union member opposes.
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Already true. They just have to write each year to ask for their contributions not to be used for politics.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Are you factoring in cost of living to your disgust, because I taught in CA and made close to that amount and we lived pretty meagerly...
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Yes I am. I'm also factoring in the number of BMWs in the teacher parking lots at my kid's schools.
 
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