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Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

Are Teacher Unions a good thing?


  • Total voters
    51
So if you have stock in a company, you shouldn't form a union?

We are talking about 2 different things, companies can not force people to buy their products.

As taxpayers are a captive audience to schools, they have to buy it whether or not they agree with it.
Giving the employees double the power to possibly force people to buy more of their product is unethical.
 
They already had representation in government, now they have double representation that can boost their job benefits at the expense of everyone else without merit.

They already had representation in Government??? As in a Senator? The Senator represents them on a State or Federal Level depending on the Senator( U.S Senator or State Senator). However neither has real say in the day to day actions of a Govt Office. Unions are valuable asset.

Back to teachers...I don't think many like the Federal Board of Education is a good thing in the eyes of teachers. All in all teachers have benefitted from their Union.
 
We are talking about 2 different things, companies can not force people to buy their products.

You can homeschool, use a private school, a church school, and if you are in the right district, go to a charter school.

In other news, I am voting other since my wife plans to be a teacher and has worked for the school system in the past, so I am biased.
 
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They already had representation in Government??? As in a Senator? The Senator represents them on a State or Federal Level depending on the Senator( U.S Senator or State Senator). However neither has real say in the day to day actions of a Govt Office. Unions are valuable asset.

Back to teachers...I don't think many like the Federal Board of Education is a good thing in the eyes of teachers. All in all teachers have benefitted from their Union.

Their Senators, Reps and those on the state level do influence things related to day to day interactions.
 
Even though I home school my son, I still have to buy the services of a government school, even though I don't use it at all.

Good point there. But I have seen what goes on at a public school day to day. From what I have seen, most parents are quite unreasonable in their demands from teachers and administrative staff. So, I can't blame teachers for wanting some protection to get some free space to simply do their job.
 
Their Senators, Reps and those on the state level do influence things related to day to day interactions.

Not to the degree you would think. A Union is a Simple form of Democracy..If Corps can have rights so should the employees. I say more Unions are needed not less.
 
Good point there. But I have seen what goes on at a public school day to day. From what I have seen, most parents are quite unreasonable in their demands from teachers and administrative staff. So, I can't blame teachers for wanting some protection.

I understand that, that's why I can't begin to support federal and state governments in education.

There are to many competing interests, which usually come at the expense of the children.
 
I understand that, that's why I can't begin to support federal and state governments in education.

There are to many competing interests, which usually come at the expense of the children.

I know. Its the nature of government. Everyone wants everything and noone wants to pay for it.

But I think in this case it is better than a private setup would be since not everyone can afford to pay in equally and you will have issues with different students being educated to different standards. That goes on now with different districts having different funding and such, but its not as bad as it otherwise would be.
 
I know. Its the nature of government. Everyone wants everything and noone wants to pay for it.

But I think in this case it is better than a private setup would be since not everyone can afford to pay in equally and you will have issues with different students being educated to different standards. That goes on now with different districts having different funding and such, but its not as bad as it otherwise would be.

As a fellow Georgian, I hope your wife does well.

The schools here, at least in my opinion, are terrible.
 
Thank you for your well wishes and I know what you mean. One day she got a shirt with a 67.6 in big bold letters on the back. When I asked what it was, she said "its our graduation rate, it went up last year and everyone is proud." I looked at her and she said "I know, it sucks." :doh

Of course, I am in the sticks. A system like (North) Fulton county's is much better. Again, a lot depends on local funding.
 
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Thank you for your well wishes and I know what you mean. One day she got a shirt with a 67.6 in big bold letters on the back. When I asked what it was, she said "its our graduation rate, it went up last year and everyone is proud." I looked at her and she said "I know, it sucks." :doh

I lived west of Atlanta and most of the high schools here are concerned with football and not much else.

My local elementary school has consistently failed to meet AYP.
The budget cuts this year are pretty big too.


Of course, I am in the sticks. A system like (North) Fulton county's is much better. Again, a lot depends on local funding.

I do as well, North Fulton is a pretty nice place.
 
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They already have an avenue to do this, their employer is already under their control to some extent, they can vote.

Essentially they are allowed to do more than just lobby for better benefits, they can lobby to get laws changed to benefit their industry at large.
If you're talking about limiting the abilities of unions to lobby and politick, I'm with you--as long as other entities like corporations are limited by the same restrictions. But everyone, it seems, has the right to lobby government. There are tax-payer groups who do the same thing.
 
Not to the degree you would think. A Union is a Simple form of Democracy..If Corps can have rights so should the employees. I say more Unions are needed not less.

I'm all for unions, when the following conditions are met:

1) The employer owns the job, hence gets to decide who works where, and who gets fired. Non-performing workers, including incompetent teachers, can be fired at any time. The city of New York has hundreds of teachers paid full salary while basically in "detention", because they're not allowed to teach students.

2) Employers can permanently replace people who are supposed to be working but are out on the sidewalk marching in circles carrying signs.

3) Criminal charges are filed and prosecuted for every act of violence any union member engages in.

4) Union elections are by sealed secret ballot only.

5) Workers at a company have the freedom to not be in the union.

6) Union dues are collected for political purposes are subject to refund to the union member when the union endorses and finances political candidates the union member opposes. Union members should receive a quarterly statement specifying exactly where their dues money goes, so the political activities can be seen.

Then I'll support unions.
 
If you're talking about limiting the abilities of unions to lobby and politick, I'm with you--as long as other entities like corporations are limited by the same restrictions. But everyone, it seems, has the right to lobby government. There are tax-payer groups who do the same thing.

There's nothing wrong with groups, companies, and goonions from exercising their First Amendment freedoms. It's how America works.
 
If you're talking about limiting the abilities of unions to lobby and politick, I'm with you--as long as other entities like corporations are limited by the same restrictions. But everyone, it seems, has the right to lobby government. There are tax-payer groups who do the same thing.

The problem I find is that people, generally, equate higher teachers salaries with better teachers.

In many or most places, teachers are paid pretty well but I hear a constant barrage of "teachers need raises" when the rest of the world operates on the merit based system.
 
The problem I find is that people, generally, equate higher teachers salaries with better teachers.

In many or most places, teachers are paid pretty well but I hear a constant barrage of "teachers need raises" when the rest of the world operates on the merit based system.

the merit based system does not work in education because the product is not a direct product of a teacher's pedagogy. It's a combination of what the student wants to achieve, their ambition, their own motivation, along with what the teacher has provided in pedagogy.

If you can solve the problem of measuring the quality of education from student to student, along with all those confounding variables I just listed, then I would have no problem with a merit based system.
 
I am pretty sure I know what you are referring to. And I'll cite the works of Jeannie Oakes. I don't recall the name of the study she had done, it's been a few years since I've read it, but it goes something like this:

In areas where the majority of the students are of lower SES, the schools tend to use lesson plans that have the qualities of what was referred to as classical conditioning (as in Pavlov and Skinner). These schools tend to have larger classrooms and they also to use the "one size fits all" lesson plans, to follow the lesson plans provided by the instructional guide that comes with the Teachers edition.

In areas where the majority of the students are of higher SES, the schools tend to use lesson plans that have the qualities of what was referred to as higher order and abstract thinking (as in Piaget). These schools tend to have smaller classrooms, better equipment, etc, and the lesson plans tend to allow the student to reach the correct conclusion on their own, as opposed to a mechanical way of thinking (as in the former example).

What is the difference? Lower SES schools produce the type of worker that would be optimal to follow orders and to follow instructions, in short blue collar jobs. Higher SES schools would produce white collar workers. Jeannie Oakes' study confirmed that this is the norm, but it's not the only factor however, there are several other variables to keep in mind as well.
I'm sure her study is correct. My point would be that things are getting worse in this area, with districts preferring to pay for commercially-available plans or local administrative consultants rather than facilitating the development of effective planning by teachers. I've found little research to show that scripted instruction improves student learning, but there is research to show that student performance improves when teachers at the school level cooperate to design curriculum.

I have a couple of other concerns about this trend as well. First, high school dropouts report that "being bored" and "not learning anything" are the primary reasons they leave school--that's more likely to happen in a less-challenging-curriculum situation. Maye lower SES kids drop out more because of how we're teaching them.

Also, public schools are supposed to be leveling--they aren't supposed to reproduce the same class relations that already existed, which the research you cite tends to suggest.

Third, the economy of the future requires workers with greater skills. We need what Robert Reich calls "symbolic analysts," which requires higher-order thinking skills for the majority, not just the few.

Finally, good teaching depends substantially on the engagement of the teacher. Bored teachers are bad teachers. Powerless teachers are bad teachers. This method actually shifts public funds away from teachers (who don't need the same level of training if all they do is follow someone else's plan) and toward the private corporations that produce textbooks and lesson plans.




It most certainly is. Profit based education means that there is money to be made, and the people on those school boards know exactly how to make that money (with the Charter schools).[/QUOTE]
 
Even though I home school my son, I still have to buy the services of a government school, even though I don't use it at all.

You don't feel your country would benefit from having educated citizens? Without a world class education, how will we compete in the world.

Its like every city in the US requiring a minimum water bill for every citizen within their public water system service area, even though your individual well may be good. In order for the community as whole to benefit from the public water system, the cost must be spread out to all those in the community.
 
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the merit based system does not work in education because the product is not a direct product of a teacher's pedagogy. It's a combination of what the student wants to achieve, their ambition, their own motivation, along with what the teacher has provided in pedagogy.

If you can solve the problem of measuring the quality of education from student to student, along with all those confounding variables I just listed, then I would have no problem with a merit based system.

That's why I don't support government education, if no one can measure the results, then it can be manipulated much like it has been now.

Of course parents like to always blame teachers but they are a big part of it too.

To many conflicting interests.
 
You don't feel your country would benefit from having educated citizens? Without a world class education, how will we compete in the world.

Yes. My country would benefit from having educated citizens. Since the public schools do not educate, we should have started looking at better alternatives decades ago.

Want to measure a teacher's performance? Easy.

Have the next teacher in line record how much time is spent doing remedial work to get the "passed" student up to the new grade level. A certain statistic will be "over the summer forgetfulness", a certain percentage will be "the student is a rock", and some percentage will be "last year's teacher was incompetent".

PUBLISH the standards so a parent can know if his kid is up to grade level or not...and this would also let the parent know when the school is wasting his kid's time with bull****, too...

Lots of ways to fix the current system. All of them depend on focusing on the student, not the teacher's pay package.
 
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