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Should School computers have firewalls?

Should schools have firewalls

  • Total voters
    51
iangb said:
Try living/working without your internet connection or mobile phone for a week. Double points if you're a smartphone user.
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Do you honestly think it is impossible for anyone to do this?
I didn't grow up with those things, heck my mother didn't have a phone when me and my sisters were growing up, if we needed to make a phone call we get a quarter and walk down to the store or convenient store to make a phone call. .



The world changes.
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I am pretty sure that most children in the world who do go to school actually still know how to do math and other things without the aid of the internet,calculator that American kids today seem to take for granted. So no kids do not need internet access in schools.
 
It's not always to make life easier. The internet for example was created for scientists to more efficiently share information. The computer has allowed for marked improvements and inquiry into science and math as well. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with increased technology, but it's not like kids are learning more. If anything, they're learning less. Hell this thread is testament to that. The whole purpose of evading the firewall is to access things like facebook and other useless time sinks. It's fine enough in moderation, but in the school setting it becomes a distraction.

There's a difference between using a piece of technology and becoming overly dependent upon that technology. Technology can aid in many ways, but i you begin to teach to the technology then kids just stop learning. Why learn when you can google something and just plagiarize it? Computers are very powerful tools, but completely underutilized by the standard high school student. They aren't learning anything more advanced because of it.
 
jamesrage said:
I am pretty sure that most children in the world who do go to school actually still know how to do math and other things without the aid of the internet,calculator that American kids today seem to take for granted. So no kids do not need internet access in schools.
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I don't know. I keep seeing the new classes of freshman into University and they seem to get dumber each and every year.
 
"Sirrah," is a term of condescention, so it couldn't be used to address me, obvioulsy.

I used to think as your do, and you're position has merit. But when I'm in schools, I generally see the kids using flash games that are pruported to be educational. In other words, the computers seem to be glorified toys.
 
Jamesrage said:
Do you honestly think it is impossible for anyone to do this?
I didn't grow up with those things, heck my mother didn't have a phone when me and my sisters were growing up, if we needed to make a phone call we get a quarter and walk down to the store or convenient store to make a phone call. .
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No, but I think that if you want to work in most jobs nowadays, a phone and the internet will make life near-infinitely easier. 'Back in my day' analogies are pointless here - as I said, the world changes.

I am pretty sure that most children in the world who do go to school actually still know how to do math and other things without the aid of the internet,calculator that American kids today seem to take for granted. So no kids do not need internet access in schools.
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Where did I say 'need'? I'm just saying they benefit from it.

Ikari said:
It's not always to make life easier. The internet for example was created for scientists to more efficiently share information. The computer has allowed for marked improvements and inquiry into science and math as well. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with increased technology, but it's not like kids are learning more. If anything, they're learning less. Hell this thread is testament to that. The whole purpose of evading the firewall is to access things like facebook and other useless time sinks. It's fine enough in moderation, but in the school setting it becomes a distraction.

There's a difference between using a piece of technology and becoming overly dependent upon that technology. Technology can aid in many ways, but i you begin to teach to the technology then kids just stop learning. Why learn when you can google something and just plagiarize it? Computers are very powerful tools, but completely underutilized by the standard high school student. They aren't learning anything more advanced because of it.
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All of what you are saying is true, for a given value of 'true'. That is - it's very dependent on how a school implements it's use of computers and firewalls. There are plenty of examples where a computer has just been a distraction - but there are also plenty of cases where it has been incredibly helpful to use in a lesson.
 
No to firewalls unless they can be intelligently administered...this may not be possible...
The seniors in school should be exposed to the scum around them and must be taught how to handle this lowlife..
The juniors??
Also, I note in too many cases here and other sites where the English used is horrible.
Maybe the schools should rid themselves of the computers and return to teaching English.
 
i think thye should have them to an extent, but my school went nuts with firewalls, and you couldn't access anything more than wikipedia, and on the computers they went as far as to block right clicking.

but if i was still at school, i would say no, 'cause it was so much funner to be playing flash games than doing work
 
Iwa said:
Im in 11th grade if you must ask and i was simply making a poll now take a chill pill or some roofies to knock you out so i dont have to see you type your rude opinions.
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Moderator's Warning:
You may NOT post like this here. Cease this behavior or there will be further consequences.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Moderator's Warning:
You may NOT post like this here. Cease this behavior or there will be further consequences.
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i understand your objection but here is one of the early responses to this new forumite's OP:
jamesrage said:
How old are you really? Are you still in middle school and pissed that you can't chat on myspace,make updates on twitter or look at porn when you are supposed to be doing schoolwork? Schools,businesses and many other places can have all the firewalls, net nannys and other **** they want, it is not your computer or internet connection.
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hardly the standard of civil behavior the OP is expected to meet
trying to place his remarks in context to show he only responded with the same "attitude" which was directed at him from the start
 
Liability issues being what they are. Any well-run school is going to cover the butts and put a filter in place.

As a parent though, I think they should be in place as well. They aren't perfect, but they are better than nothing. The best thing, of course, is effective supervision.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Perhaps before attempting to explain someone elses violation of the rules you should read it in full. Specifically the one in regards to questioning moderator action publicly. Remember also that not all mod action is visible. If you have issues or questions with moderation, PM it to a mod. If you want to complain about it, go to the binky. Posting is thread is not one of the options. Get back on the topic of this THREAD, not moderation
 
Absolutely there should be firewalls at schools.

Schools are there for learning. They're not there for web surfing, for chatting, for social networking, for blogging, for foruming, or anything else of the sort. Does a firewall, generally one done poorly, potentially block educational material? Sure. However the educational material it blocks is generally rather small, especially compared to the material it leaves open AND when compared to the vast amount of non-educational things it manages to block.

For every kid that could use the internet responsably during school there's 9 who would be using the lack of firewall for facebook, twitter, myspace, flash games, gossip sites, etc.

Here'd be my question since you're using doing proxy stuff. The kids that use your proxy...do they use it to go to "educational" sites which are blocked by the firewall primarily, or are they using it to go to non-educational sites that are blocked?

If the primary thing they're doing is the latter, then your argument at the beginning of this about how its keeping them from some educational material is worthless because its nothing but a front to keep from seeming like a very stereotypical high schooler going "grr, the mean school isn't letting me screw off".

Not to mention, from the geeky side of me, it gives early practice to the enterprising Comp Sci students to learn how to use proxies.

I was one of those kids that didn't like the mean school letting me screw off, especially when I had an elective in my senior year as a "library assistant" which really translated to "sit in the library for an hour doing whatever you want". So, learned about proxies, learned how to connect to proxies, got to play a MUD every day during school. Knowledge came in useful later for educational purposes in college ;)

But in a general sense...yes, high school computers should have firewalls.
 
Must be time to up my meds.


I'm agreeing with Jamesrage.....;)
 
Zyphlin said:
Sure. However the educational material it blocks is generally rather small, especially compared to the material it leaves open AND when compared to the vast amount of non-educational things it manages to block.
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You obviously never went to my school (and/or heard about the issues our filtering had). But who has? It was a tiny public school.

It was terrible, and blocked out a large quantity of educational material - on the same level pretty much [quantity wise] as what non-educational material was blocked. You couldn't even search for material for a class project because the search term had a censored word in it.

I wouldn't be so quick to generalize about filtering, since different implementations have different levels of success/failure.

For every kid that could use the internet responsably during school there's 9 who would be using the lack of firewall for facebook, twitter, myspace, flash games, gossip sites, etc.
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I would be inclined to mostly agree, though in a part, proactive-ness on the part of a teacher(s), or librarian/assistant [when it occurs] can help a lot there.

Here'd be my question since you're using doing proxy stuff. The kids that use your proxy...do they use it to go to "educational" sites which are blocked by the firewall primarily, or are they using it to go to non-educational sites that are blocked?
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Both actually, where I was at least.


[/quote]If the primary thing they're doing is the latter, then your argument at the beginning of this about how its keeping them from some educational material is worthless...[/quote]

I disagree. The fact that people use a proxy to access non-educational sites does NOT somehow outright negate the impact on educational computer/internet use that DOES occur with a [poorly implemented, at least] filter.

Not to mention, from the geeky side of me, it gives early practice to the enterprising Comp Sci students to learn how to use proxies.
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:D

Or find harmless workarounds, if like me. A simple batch script that was designed to access the command prompt [since my school blocked unauthorized EXEs, but not batch scripts, and blocked command prompt access, which made certain programming endeavors impossible] was enough to knock out the web filter... only learned that after my idiocy with telnet got me into a wee bit of trouble though. :p
 
Zyphlin said:
Absolutely there should be firewalls at schools.

Schools are there for learning. They're not there for web surfing, for chatting, for social networking, for blogging, for foruming, or anything else of the sort. Does a firewall, generally one done poorly, potentially block educational material? Sure. However the educational material it blocks is generally rather small, especially compared to the material it leaves open AND when compared to the vast amount of non-educational things it manages to block.

For every kid that could use the internet responsably during school there's 9 who would be using the lack of firewall for facebook, twitter, myspace, flash games, gossip sites, etc.

Here'd be my question since you're using doing proxy stuff. The kids that use your proxy...do they use it to go to "educational" sites which are blocked by the firewall primarily, or are they using it to go to non-educational sites that are blocked?

If the primary thing they're doing is the latter, then your argument at the beginning of this about how its keeping them from some educational material is worthless because its nothing but a front to keep from seeming like a very stereotypical high schooler going "grr, the mean school isn't letting me screw off".

Not to mention, from the geeky side of me, it gives early practice to the enterprising Comp Sci students to learn how to use proxies.

I was one of those kids that didn't like the mean school letting me screw off, especially when I had an elective in my senior year as a "library assistant" which really translated to "sit in the library for an hour doing whatever you want". So, learned about proxies, learned how to connect to proxies, got to play a MUD every day during school. Knowledge came in useful later for educational purposes in college ;)

But in a general sense...yes, high school computers should have firewalls.
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your argument presumes that the student is going to exercise one of two options. screw off on the internet or use that same time dilligently pursuing studies by other non-web means for educational purposes
that is like presuming the slack worker on a job is going to be doing constructive things if you have denied them internet access on the job
this is an old school approach of evaluating process, rather than product
if the student screws off, then the student's grades will reflect that inefficient study/work habit
similarly, if the weak employee screws up, that should be reflected in their performance evaluation - based on accomplishment, not process used to (or not to) attain it
instituting a school nanny and a work nanny will not elevate the weak student/employee because you have denied them wide internet access. instead, you will have dampened the richness of the school/work experience for the self-motivated student/employee
just another stride in our race to the bottom
 
justabubba said:
your argument presumes that the student is going to exercise one of two options. screw off on the internet or use that same time dilligently pursuing studies by other non-web means for educational purposes
that is like presuming the slack worker on a job is going to be doing constructive things if you have denied them internet access on the job
this is an old school approach of evaluating process, rather than product
if the student screws off, then the student's grades will reflect that inefficient study/work habit
similarly, if the weak employee screws up, that should be reflected in their performance evaluation - based on accomplishment, not process used to (or not to) attain it
instituting a school nanny and a work nanny will not elevate the weak student/employee because you have denied them wide internet access. instead, you will have dampened the richness of the school/work experience for the self-motivated student/employee
just another stride in our race to the bottom
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Yes with taking off the internet blocker you will definately see who is and who isnt a productive student. with the blockwers it makes projects harder for students to do with 90% of things on google blocked and it is a disadvantage to students who dont have access at home or are not close to a library.
 
Iwa said:
Yes with taking off the internet blocker you will definately see who is and who isnt a productive student. with the blockwers it makes projects harder for students to do with 90% of things on google blocked and it is a disadvantage to students who dont have access at home or are not close to a library.
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Go to the library. Why does everything ****ing have to be handed to people? For the love of **** people, get off your asses and do something. They're not close to a library? Do they have no parents? No legs? No buses? How the hell is it that blocking the internet stops students from doing their projects? It stops them from wasting time on Facebook and other stupid things, but that's about it. There's all sorts of resources out there, students these days are not doing anything so advanced that it requires a computer. You're doing the same crap all of us did when we were in high school, and many of us did so without the aid of the internet.

Read a f'n book instead of ripping of Wikipedia.
 
Ikari said:
Go to the library. Why does everything ****ing have to be handed to people? For the love of **** people, get off your asses and do something. They're not close to a library? Do they have no parents? No legs? No buses? How the hell is it that blocking the internet stops students from doing their projects? It stops them from wasting time on Facebook and other stupid things, but that's about it. There's all sorts of resources out there, students these days are not doing anything so advanced that it requires a computer. You're doing the same crap all of us did when we were in high school, and many of us did so without the aid of the internet.

Read a f'n book instead of ripping of Wikipedia.
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there are LOTS of students who have no access to a computer, or the internet at home
those in that modest economic circumstance often live in rural locations without personal transportation
yet they are competing in school against the other students who have the good fortune to have access to the web
my kids' AP tests were taken on the net. most of their assignments were located there, too. then we wonder why those of the lower socio-economic rung are not taking the higher level courses
 
Zyphlin said:
Absolutely there should be firewalls at schools.

Schools are there for learning. They're not there for web surfing, for chatting, for social networking, for blogging, for foruming, or anything else of the sort. Does a firewall, generally one done poorly, potentially block educational material? Sure. However the educational material it blocks is generally rather small, especially compared to the material it leaves open AND when compared to the vast amount of non-educational things it manages to block.

For every kid that could use the internet responsably during school there's 9 who would be using the lack of firewall for facebook, twitter, myspace, flash games, gossip sites, etc.

Here'd be my question since you're using doing proxy stuff. The kids that use your proxy...do they use it to go to "educational" sites which are blocked by the firewall primarily, or are they using it to go to non-educational sites that are blocked?

If the primary thing they're doing is the latter, then your argument at the beginning of this about how its keeping them from some educational material is worthless because its nothing but a front to keep from seeming like a very stereotypical high schooler going "grr, the mean school isn't letting me screw off".

Not to mention, from the geeky side of me, it gives early practice to the enterprising Comp Sci students to learn how to use proxies.

I was one of those kids that didn't like the mean school letting me screw off, especially when I had an elective in my senior year as a "library assistant" which really translated to "sit in the library for an hour doing whatever you want". So, learned about proxies, learned how to connect to proxies, got to play a MUD every day during school. Knowledge came in useful later for educational purposes in college ;)

But in a general sense...yes, high school computers should have firewalls.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with you here. My son is in the 11th grade and was given a laptop for the year along with all his classmates (some new program they're trying out where they submit class assignments from moodle to the teacher). That thing has so many filters, blocks, firewalls, etc, that if he needs to do any serious research, I just let him use my computer (with my supervision, of course).

I think they should have firewalls, but they should be realistic about how they're applied, as someone mentioned earlier. Overall, I do agree with the use of technology like what my son's school is doing. It's important for kids to learn how to submit assignments online if they're going to manage in college because so many instructors require their students to do exactly that.
 
justabubba said:
there are LOTS of students who have no access to a computer, or the internet at home
those in that modest economic circumstance often live in rural locations without personal transportation
yet they are competing in school against the other students who have the good fortune to have access to the web
my kids' AP tests were taken on the net. most of their assignments were located there, too. then we wonder why those of the lower socio-economic rung are not taking the higher level courses
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The lower levels economic blocks don't take higher level courses for more serious reasons than just internet connection. If that was their only problem, it could be easily worked out. Much of it has more to do with funding and class size and home life than merely a computer. All public schools should receive equal funding. This crap where it's funded by property tax or whatever so that suburbia gets ridiculous schools while kids in the inner city have nothing needs to stop. Pool the money, divide it up upon population.

Everything you just bitched about here is not valid as none of it has to be done on computers. It doesn't make things better, it doesn't teach better, it doesn't convey information easier, the complication and sophistication of work hasn't increased. Kids are probably dumber now then at any other point, if the incoming Freshmen are any indication. As for the no transportation thing...I grew up in Illinois, middle of the State. I know lots of people who lived far off on farms. Guess what...they had to *gasp* plan ahead. My HS buddies had to do that, their parents accommodated since it was for school work.

In the end, I think so much of this just comes down to sheer laziness. Nothing else.
 
Ikari said:
The lower levels economic blocks don't take higher level courses for more serious reasons than just internet connection.
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that is true. but it is unfortunate that the talented kid, who could stretch into AP classes is denied that only because (s)he is not able to do the web assignments since they haven't the tools to work with

If that was their only problem, it could be easily worked out.
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how do you know. if you are correct, then my point would be in error, because then every kid with the talent but not the means would then be in AP or IB settings, because "something" would have been worked out. unfortunately, my assessment is accurate

Much of it has more to do with funding and class size and home life than merely a computer.
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no doubt, those are additional factors, but that they also exist does not disprove my assertion

All public schools should receive equal funding. This crap where it's funded by property tax or whatever so that suburbia gets ridiculous schools while kids in the inner city have nothing needs to stop. Pool the money, divide it up upon population.
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i agree. but that is not on topic

Everything you just bitched about here is not valid as none of it has to be done on computers.
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actually, it is very much on topic. as i shared previously, my kids' work assignments and course work for their AP classes were web based. no access to the web, no opportunity to take the classes

It doesn't make things better, it doesn't teach better, it doesn't convey information easier, the complication and sophistication of work hasn't increased.
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if your presention had any relationship to reality, then there would be no reason for any computer to reside within a school room. but we know that is not the case

Kids are probably dumber now then at any other point, if the incoming Freshmen are any indication.
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my wife is a retired teacher. i was an active tutor and my job caused me to have reason to interact with school systems across the state. i will agree with you to this point. the smart kids are smarter than ever. but a generation or two back, there were as many slow kids as smart kids and the great majority were average students. it seems now the slow kids are in the majority

As for the no transportation thing...I grew up in Illinois, middle of the State. I know lots of people who lived far off on farms. Guess what...they had to *gasp* plan ahead. My HS buddies had to do that, their parents accommodated since it was for school work.
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that's great. obviously, while rural, they had two things that many other kids do not: parental support and economic sufficiency to cover their transportation needs. not so true for many of the underclass - those i have been speaking about

In the end, I think so much of this just comes down to sheer laziness. Nothing else.
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for some, you would be correct
but what about the many who are not lazy but are denied opportunities thru no fault of their own; does it not bother you that we are wasting their potential?
 
hiswoman said:
I have to disagree with you here. My son is in the 11th grade and was given a laptop for the year along with all his classmates (some new program they're trying out where they submit class assignments from moodle to the teacher). That thing has so many filters, blocks, firewalls, etc, that if he needs to do any serious research, I just let him use my computer (with my supervision, of course).
Click to expand...

Honestly this sounds like an issue with how strict their making the firewall, not having a firewall.

Example, it'd be idotic and bad to put a 5 mile per hour speed limit on a road that probably should be a 35 mph limit.

That said, the "fix" to this is not to remove the speed limit all together.
 
Ikari said:
Go to the library. Why does everything ****ing have to be handed to people? For the love of **** people, get off your asses and do something. They're not close to a library? Do they have no parents? No legs? No buses? How the hell is it that blocking the internet stops students from doing their projects? It stops them from wasting time on Facebook and other stupid things, but that's about it. There's all sorts of resources out there, students these days are not doing anything so advanced that it requires a computer. You're doing the same crap all of us did when we were in high school, and many of us did so without the aid of the internet.

Read a f'n book instead of ripping of Wikipedia.
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haha who reads anymore? i havent read unless i HAD to in 4 years my vocabulary was the level of a senior when i was in 5th grade im not meaning to boast but i used to read alot and i dont find a use for it anymore. reading wasted alot of my life.
 
justabubba said:
that is true. but it is unfortunate that the talented kid, who could stretch into AP classes is denied that only because (s)he is not able to do the web assignments since they haven't the tools to work with


how do you know. if you are correct, then my point would be in error, because then every kid with the talent but not the means would then be in AP or IB settings, because "something" would have been worked out. unfortunately, my assessment is accurate


no doubt, those are additional factors, but that they also exist does not disprove my assertion


i agree. but that is not on topic


actually, it is very much on topic. as i shared previously, my kids' work assignments and course work for their AP classes were web based. no access to the web, no opportunity to take the classes


if your presention had any relationship to reality, then there would be no reason for any computer to reside within a school room. but we know that is not the case


my wife is a retired teacher. i was an active tutor and my job caused me to have reason to interact with school systems across the state. i will agree with you to this point. the smart kids are smarter than ever. but a generation or two back, there were as many slow kids as smart kids and the great majority were average students. it seems now the slow kids are in the majority


that's great. obviously, while rural, they had two things that many other kids do not: parental support and economic sufficiency to cover their transportation needs. not so true for many of the underclass - those i have been speaking about


for some, you would be correct
but what about the many who are not lazy but are denied opportunities thru no fault of their own; does it not bother you that we are wasting their potential?
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wow you just tore that post apart O M G. congos to you. remind me not to ever disagree with you.
 
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