• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

French law could see fines for burqas

Burqa ban+fine, example to follow or shy

  • This law is a must in general

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    39
Allowing women to wear Burkas doesn't support the system you're talking about.

If you force all women to shed these garments, then the women who wear them because they are forced to will be forced to remain in their homes. They will not have any meaningful interaction with their neighbors, or anybody else who might have any interest whatsoever in their well-being.

Does that sound like the way to address "the system?"

Sure - just like liberating our women from wearing tops. Let's free them from the religious oppression of covering their boobies! That will solve everything.
 
I have addressed your point the same way that you have addressed mine, and now you declare it as the incapability to address a point.

How pathetic, really, I feel sorry for your astonishingly weak argument skills. :shrug:

Actually, you didn't address my point at all, whereas I did address yours by showing you where you were wrong, but by all means feel free to play another round of "I know you are but what am I" by yourself. :lol:

IIndeed, a very different statement than "you take away people's freedom".
I am willing to allow the minor violation of a woman's freedom in order to ensure the safety of many other women, just like her.

As I tried to explain to Gardner, all you're ensuring is that the women who were being forced to wear Burkas will be isolated.

Are you suggesting that the women living in Islamic communities are capable of combating this oppression?
Because it doesn't seem to be so, seeing that thousands of them die due to honor killings every year.

Lots of women die in honor killings every year that have nothing to do with Islam.

That said, I haven't heard of a rash of honor killings in France, where this law is being discussed. Have there been, or were you throwing that out there because a red herring is the best you've got?

Since it is not related to my argument and I do not argue for or against the damage that Burqa-wearing women do to their surroundings, I have no opinion on the issue as to present time.
Consider me neutral if you must.

Since you can't or won't argue that women in Burkas harm others by wearing a Burka, then how can you justify forcefully stripping them of their freedom to wear one? Isn't the only legitimate argument for stripping an adult of their liberty that they pose a threat to other people?
 
Me too. You're a tyrant, I believe in freedom.

Seriously, you do realize that it's possible to have a compromise, don't you? Think about it.

How is the support of the most very extreme elements within Islam considered a "compromise"?

I find it highly ironic how often it is those who like to wag fingers at others in regards to not distinguishing between moderate Muslims and extremists are the very ones who show the least inclination towards doing so, themselves.

The "compromise" here is to support modern, moderate Muslims in their fight against the backwards elements within their society.
 
Do you honestly know so little about the practice or the social dynamics involved?

The muslim women involved are NOT, let me repeat NOT living in France society wise. They are living in ghettos in isolated sub communites where they have almost no exposure to Freance.

Those Muslim women who ARE integrated or who DO want to be part of France don't want the Burqa.

You got a source for any of that?
 
How is the support of the most very extreme elements within Islam considered a "compromise"?

That's not the compromise I'm thinking of.

The "compromise" here is to support modern, moderate Muslims in their fight against the backwards elements within their society.

You really think going around making laws like this is going to help that? Really?
 
You said:
I hope your distorted view of the world comes nowhere near being codified on the law books.
Whatever the merits of my comment about mocking and ridiculing freaks in burkas, I never said wearing full body sheets should be outlawed so your comments are incoherent relative my posts. You make no sense.

I'm no more interested in seeing your view become a matter of law simply because you say it should never be implemented in a free society.

Again, nonsensical incoherence. Why would any reasonable clear thinking person suddenly want to see it become law just because they read my comments saying it should not become law???

You make no sense whatsoever rambling on like this.
 
You said:

Whatever the merits of my comment about mocking and ridiculing freaks in burkas, I never said wearing full body sheets should be outlawed so your comments are incoherent relative my posts. You make no sense.

Actually I make plenty of sense. I was addressing the bolded portion of the above, which should've been clear since I, you know, QUOTED it when I said what I said.

If you can't follow that, it's really not my fault.
 
Actually, you didn't address my point at all, whereas I did address yours by showing you where you were wrong, but by all means feel free to play another round of "I know you are but what am I" by yourself. :lol:
You didn't address my point, you've simply claimed that I'm wrong without facts or anything to support your argument, and has done that in a most-infantile way.

I have no time to waste on your ilk. Write that down please.
As I tried to explain to Gardner, all you're ensuring is that the women who were being forced to wear Burkas will be isolated.
Again, how so?
Are you able to explain your positions, or are you only able to make statements that depend entirely on your belief?
Lots of women die in honor killings every year that have nothing to do with Islam.
Proof? Evidence?
That said, I haven't heard of a rash of honor killings in France, where this law is being discussed. Have there been, or were you throwing that out there because a red herring is the best you've got?
There have been honor killing in France and in everywhere else on this planet with a similar/bigger amount of Muslims. (5 million+)
Since you can't or won't argue that women in Burkas harm others by wearing a Burka, then how can you justify forcefully stripping them of their freedom to wear one? Isn't the only legitimate argument for stripping an adult of their liberty that they pose a threat to other people?
If you would bother reading my post and arguments before commenting on them, as an automatic search for people to argue with, you would know what my arguments are and hence be able to respond accordingly.

Since you don't, I'll advise you to stop wasting my goddamned time.
 
Last edited:
Actually I make plenty of sense. I was addressing the bolded portion of the above, which should've been clear since I, you know, QUOTED it when I said what I said.

If you can't follow that, it's really not my fault.

It was nice to see that you agree with me.
 
That's not the compromise I'm thinking of.



You really think going around making laws like this is going to help that? Really?

So far you have yet to write even one word to indicate you could give a rat's ass about the plight of Muslim women at all much less come up with anything to help them.

So d@mn them to live lives as chattel, subject to the demands of their owners. After all, they are just Muslims, right?
 
By leveling the playing field, you are taking away one excuse for attacking them. It won't end the attacks, certainly, but it will take away one of the superficial reasons for doing so supported by the wider community.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the banning of niqabs and burqas will eventually alter the perception some Muslim men have of women? It won't. The women will just swap their burqas for hijabs and floor length dresses and the abuse will continue. Will we then ban hijabs and long dresses too? What if the abuse STILL continues? When do we finally go after the real problem?
 
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the banning of niqabs and burqas will eventually alter the perception some Muslim men have of women? It won't. The women will just swap their burqas for hijabs and floor length dresses and the abuse will continue. Will we then ban hijabs and long dresses too? What if the abuse STILL continues? When do we finally go after the real problem?
Would you care to give your own proposal as to how to combat the situation?
 
So far you have yet to write even one word to indicate you could give a rat's ass about the plight of Muslim women at all much less come up with anything to help them.

I care deeply about the plight of Muslim women.

There. Now you can get back to the subject, which isn't me.

So d@mn them to live lives as chattel, subject to the demands of their owners. After all, they are just Muslims, right?

Wrong. That is not how I feel at all. Nor does it reflect reality.

Back on topic please.

(BTW, by coindence I'm going to a Muslim wedding tonight. Not my first either. I'll report to you on how the bride is subjugated as chattel :lol ).
 
Last edited:
You didn't address my point, you've simply claimed that I'm wrong without facts or anything to support your argument, and has done that in a most-infantile way.

I have no time to waste on your ilk. Write that down please.

Which is why you continue to respond to my posts. :lol:

Again, how so?
Are you able to explain your positions, or are you only able to make statements that depend entirely on your belief?

This is simple logic. Women who are being forced to wear Burkas when they go out in public will not be allowed out in public when the Burka is banned.

Proof? Evidence?

Google is your friend, but I'll give you a head start:

Thousands of Women Killed for Family "Honor"

There have been honor killing in France and in everywhere else on this planet with a similar/bigger amount of Muslims. (5 million+)

I believe the words I used were, a rash of, in other words, a trend of or a wave of or a lot of. Can you cite a source that shows at honor killing in France is the rule rather than an aberration?

If you would bother reading my post and arguments before commenting on them, as an automatic search for people to argue with, you would know what my arguments are and hence be able to respond accordingly.

In other words, you can't address the point. Noted.

Since you don't, I'll advise you to stop wasting my goddamned time.

Or what? :lol:

Seriously, though, I can't waste your time. Only you can do that.
 
Would you care to give your own proposal as to how to combat the situation?

I've discussed that with Gardener earlier in the thread and agreed with his views on how else to tackle problem suburbs in France.

I'd also like to point out one thing that may help you understand why I think banning these garments will have no effect on the level of violence in France. The dramatic rise in violence, gang rapes and murders committed against women in French suburbs is a relatively recent phenomena. The generation of women being targetted is young. Their mothers never went through this. Women wearing hijabs was a rarity in France up to the late 80s, early 90s. All of a sudden, some 15 to 20 years ago, young Muslim men in the poor suburbs started systematically attacking and/or raping young girls who they considered not "pious" enough. This is the reason many girls started to wear the hijab, to protect themselves from these attacks.

You see, the problem started at a time when French Muslim women were NOT wearing these clothes. They were being raised in a country that taught them they were men's equals in every respect. They behaved and dressed exactly the same as the native French women. Until, seemingly out of the blue, the abuse started. When hardly anyone was wearing Islamic dress anywhere in the country and practially no one was expected to. Clothes are not the problem. No matter what they wear, if the root of the problem is not addressed, these girls will continue to be abused by out of control, unemployed, radicalized young men.
 
This is simple logic. Women who are being forced to wear Burkas when they go out in public will not be allowed out in public when the Burka is banned.
While far from being simple logic, this is an unsupported claim.
I honestly do not believe that the Islamic communities would lock up their women.
Someone needs to do the shopping, right?
Google is your friend, but I'll give you a head start:

Thousands of Women Killed for Family "Honor"
You've given an article that supports my point that honor killings are identified with Islam.
Good job.

I can also testify that all of the honor killings in Israel, one of the states that were listed in the article, are Muslim-made. 100%.
I believe the words I used were, a rash of, in other words, a trend of or a wave of or a lot of. Can you cite a source that shows at honor killing in France is the rule rather than an aberration?
Google is your friend, but I'll give you a head start: Thousands of Women Killed for Family "Honor"
In other words, you can't address the point. Noted.
I gave you a reference to my arguments, this is pure trolling and is against the forum's rules.
Consider yourself reported for the good of the clean debaters, or in other words, those who are capable of creating arguments.
 
Last edited:
No, criminals are not always caught, frequently because victims CHOOSE not to press charges or help the police. Yes. CHOOSE.

Women aren't always willing to put their family in jail? Willing implies choice, does it not? That is their CHOICE.

A woman who has a multitude of resources to get out of an abusive relationship but yet keeps going back and going back makes the CHOICE to do so. Yes. The choice.

You're right rivrrat. These women are making a choice. They are choosing to wear the burqa rather than get beaten, raped, and possibly killed, plus almost certainly outcasted.

It is a choice they should not have to make.

They are also choosing not to contact the police, which would probably result in nothing (since, as I said, it is the THREAT of abuse that keeps them in line) except turning her family against her. They choose not to do so because doing so would be pointless.

It is their choice if they choose to remain there. It is their choice if they don't take advantage of the numerous opportunities (namely, the ****ing police) to get out of an abusive relationship. When ****ing cop comes to the door and the woman remains silent, that is HER CHOICE. I agree, it is sickening that so many women - Muslim and non-Muslim - willingly choose to remain in abusive situations when there are countless people ready, willing, and able to get them and keep them safe. Yes, it IS sickening.

Not all abusive relationships can be solved legally.

If they are being kept under lock and key, then that's a different matter. But then, banning the burqa isn't going to do jack **** to help them because the least of their worries is what piece of cloth is on their bodies.

I agree, the burqa should not be banned.

Yeah sure. Women who drive past shelters and police stations and instead head right back into the arms of the very person abusing them doesn't happen, right? Like I said, if someone is being kept under lock and key where they are unable to speak to or see another person, then of course it's not their choice. But, if they are out on the street, walking past cops, and thousands of other people, and they head right on back to the abuse, then yes... it IS their choice. In the western world.

Many Muslims who supposedly live in the "Western World", i.e. Europe, actually do not, and basically still live as if they are in their country of origin, and just happen not to be.
 
You're right rivrrat. These women are making a choice. They are choosing to wear the burqa rather than get beaten, raped, and possibly killed, plus almost certainly outcasted.

Some face no such risks, yet still choose to wear it.

Please stop playing games with facts.

And hey, how does banning it solve that problem anyway? It just makes them more likely to be beaten, raped, and possibly killed. Duh.
 
The fact that you would consider facts as anathema to your argumentation says much.

Huh? Try making sense.

The fact is that some women freely and intelligently choose to wear the thing.

(I'm back from that Muslim wedding by the way. They whipped the bride and forced her to lick the groom's feet while covered in a bedsheet. Great stuff. :roll: )
 
Last edited:
Huh? Try making sense.

The fact is that some women freely and intelligently choose to wear the thing.

(I'm back from that Muslim wedding by the way. They whipped the bride and forced her to lick the groom's feet while covered in a bedsheet. Great stuff. :roll: )

Once again, I will point out to others that I am not the one here confusing extremist muslims with moderate.

That you would stoop to such a patently dishonest and underhanded tactic says much about you.
 
I've discussed that with Gardener earlier in the thread and agreed with his views on how else to tackle problem suburbs in France.

I'd also like to point out one thing that may help you understand why I think banning these garments will have no effect on the level of violence in France. The dramatic rise in violence, gang rapes and murders committed against women in French suburbs is a relatively recent phenomena. The generation of women being targetted is young. Their mothers never went through this. Women wearing hijabs was a rarity in France up to the late 80s, early 90s. All of a sudden, some 15 to 20 years ago, young Muslim men in the poor suburbs started systematically attacking and/or raping young girls who they considered not "pious" enough. This is the reason many girls started to wear the hijab, to protect themselves from these attacks.

You see, the problem started at a time when French Muslim women were NOT wearing these clothes. They were being raised in a country that taught them they were men's equals in every respect. They behaved and dressed exactly the same as the native French women. Until, seemingly out of the blue, the abuse started. When hardly anyone was wearing Islamic dress anywhere in the country and practially no one was expected to. Clothes are not the problem. No matter what they wear, if the root of the problem is not addressed, these girls will continue to be abused by out of control, unemployed, radicalized young men.

You are correct and I will never emphasise enough that the problem with the immigrant community is France is S.O.C.I.A.L and NOT religious.
 
While far from being simple logic, this is an unsupported claim.
I honestly do not believe that the Islamic communities would lock up their women.
Someone needs to do the shopping, right?

Yep, someone does. The daughter, the niece, the young girls who are unmarried and still in school where they aren't allowed to wear even a simple hijab. The new generation that will probably never don a burqa. It's too late for the mother. She's been indoctrinated with the idea never to show any part of her body to men who aren't family members and she will not take the off her burqa unless her husband commands it.

There are an estimated 2000 women currently wearing face conceiling Islamic clothes in France, only about 300 to 500 wear the Afghanistan style burqa, the rest wear niqab that conceils everything but the eyes. Their daughters walking by their side on the streets usually wear hijab. I really do think that those very few who wear burqas will not be allowed outside again. The ones wearing niqab will probably remove the veil on their faces, but they won't take off anything else. Will that be enough to satisfy the French government?
 
You are correct and I will never emphasise enough that the problem with the immigrant community is France is S.O.C.I.A.L and NOT religious.

Absolutely. I think it's shameful what French politicians are doing. They're trying to fix a massive social problem they should have tackled at least two decades ago, by targeting this new wave of burqa wearing immigrants who had nothing to do with the original problem in the first place. It's like giving a bandaid to a cancer patient and hoping that it will be the magical cure everyone is hoping for.
 
Back
Top Bottom