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French law could see fines for burqas

Burqa ban+fine, example to follow or shy

  • This law should be completely implemented in the West

    Votes: 6 15.4%

  • This law is a must in general

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • This law is good

    Votes: 3 7.7%

  • The law is not good

    Votes: 24 61.5%

  • Other opinion(explain).

    Votes: 6 15.4%
  • Total voters
    39
misterman said:
Are there people walking around in burqas outside banks in France alot?

How many crimes in France have been committed by people wearing burqas?
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Then again, burqa wearing bank robbers can't run very fast...
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Then again, burqa wearing bank robbers can't run very fast...
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Unless they have jet packs.....

That's it. Women wear burqa's to hide their face and jet packs so they can rob banks and make a quick get away! I knew it!
 
Dav said:
How is it "yes" for the second one?
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I'd rather not wear a suit, but my society tells me I have to.

Dav said:
There's a big difference. Your face is what sets you apart from the crowd. It's a vital tool for communication as well. To make a woman cover her face is to dehumanize her, and make her one cold, expressionless tent of a million.
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What if they WANT to be one cold, expressionless tent of a million? Not everyone in the world cares as much about individualism as most Americans. There are people in THIS country that prefer to blend in instead of stand out (e.g. The Amish). Should their clothing be outlawed as well?

Dav said:
Honor killings can happen in pretty much any Muslim or European country. Anyways, it's just an example of how claiming that actions taken by a Muslim woman is "her choice" or "what she wants" is not always accurate.
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I don't think anyone would suggest that women want to be honor-killed. The same cannot be said of the burqa.
 
Ikari said:
Unless they have jet packs.....

That's it. Women wear burqa's to hide their face and jet packs so they can rob banks and make a quick get away! I knew it!
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You should work for TSA!
 
Ikari said:
While I may be suspicious of the behavior, it's not outright illegal. I wouldn't make a law preventing people from wearing ski masks. How does someone wearing a burqa on the street have anything to do with people wearing ski masks standing outside a bank? They have nothing to do with each other. You seem to want to justify a bad law through absurd and extreme examples. That does not make for a good basis of law.
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People standing with ski masks outside banks is completely comparable to people wearing Burqa in train stations.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
People standing with ski masks outside banks is completely comparable to people wearing Burqa in train stations.
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They're gonna rob the train? What the **** are you even talking about anymore? Do you even know? People wearing ski masks outside a bank=woman wearing a burqa in a train station. I mean, what the hell is wrong with you? Seriously.
 
Ikari said:
They're gonna rob the train? What the **** are you even talking about anymore? Do you even know? People wearing ski masks outside a bank=woman wearing a burqa in a train station. I mean, what the hell is wrong with you? Seriously.
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I saw a lady in a burqa in Target last week. I was shocked that no bombs went off.
 
Ikari said:
They're gonna rob the train? What the **** are you even talking about anymore? Do you even know? People wearing ski masks outside a bank=woman wearing a burqa in a train station. I mean, what the hell is wrong with you? Seriously.
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Women should strip to their thongs in train stations - just in case.
 
Maximus Zeebra said:
Certainly easier for 6 people in Burqa to have machine guns and equipment to rob a bank than it is for a person with a bank robber mask. :lol:

Also makes things easier for terrorists, who wants to bomb places, just hide behind the Burqa with the bomb.
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This argument is so absurd that it doesn't even require a rebuttal.
 
French law could see fines for burqas
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A law that should never be implemented in a free society.

Whatever happened to "Liberté, égalité, fraternité"???
 
Kandahar said:
I'd rather not wear a suit, but my society tells me I have to.
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The "second one" I referred to was my question about whether your suit is a tool of oppression of the sex that has to wear it.

What if they WANT to be one cold, expressionless tent of a million?
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The only reason any woman would want to be dehumanized would be if they have been brainwashed to believe that they are sub-humans whose sole purpose in life is to serve their husband, which is pretty sad in itself. Anyways, I doubt that a majority of women currently under the burqa would continue doing so if one day her husband/family announced that he would be fine with her keeping it off.
I'm sure that there's a bunch of people living under oppressive, brutal dictatorships who are just fine with that... but that doesn't exactly make it right.

Not everyone in the world cares as much about individualism as most Americans. There are people in THIS country that prefer to blend in instead of stand out (e.g. The Amish). Should their clothing be outlawed as well?
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Do the Amish women have to cover their entire body, including their face, at all times in public? No? That's what I thought.

I don't think anyone would suggest that women want to be honor-killed. The same cannot be said of the burqa.
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Not sure what you're trying to say here. Re-read my comment, and you'll see that what I was trying to get across is that sometimes it is a choice between one or the other.
 
The french prove time and again how pathetic their country is.
 
Dav said:
The only reason any woman would want to be dehumanized would be if they have been brainwashed to believe that they are sub-humans whose sole purpose in life is to serve their husband, which is pretty sad in itself.
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Wow, talk about dehumanizing - you assume they are brainwashed, without even letting them speak for themselves. You're the one with no respect for women.

You need to actually listen to Muslim women. Some of them, believe it or not, are intelligent, educated, free, and choose to wear the thing.

Here, this may help:

We Love Islam, So we wear Burqa | Sa

a lot of women in Europe, India and West Asia have found their cultural identity in the folds of this robe-like garment. They choose to wear it because it gives them a sense of comfort and religious belonging. They are not forced and simply choose to dress this way.

Let me draw an analogy here to a garment accepted by more people as a necessity in women’s toilette – the bra. Germaine Greer and other feminists burned bras several decades ago, in defiance of patriarchal ideas of female beauty. They saw the bra as oppressive – a garment created to objectify women and turn them into sex objects in the imagination of men. A lot of women (the majority) still choose to wear a bra. Many of them are feminists. They too stand against patriarchy but might choose to do so in a bra. They don’t see it as a patriarchal instrument but only as a means to support their breasts. Sure, there are still ridiculously stuffed, padded bras around and a lot of women around the world are subjected to ridicule and judged by size of their breasts. Inflatable and padded bras are marketed to these women with the convoluted objective of making them look like they have big busts too. But then, would we ban the bra? I don’t think so.

Further, there’s the stereotyping – women in conservative clothes must be powerless, docile and submissive while those in modern, non-traditional clothing must be outgoing, risqué and rebellious. Consider this – the French president sees the “modern”, fashionably dressed woman as the positive image, as he connects this with progress, freedom and empowerment. Hence, he chooses to speak of banning the burqa, as he sees it as the very anti-thesis of his country’s values. In Sudan, docility, modesty and traditional clothing are considered valuable. Hence their opposite – trousers, in this case – is seen as harmful to the fabric of society. In both cases, the woman’s choice in the matter is discounted, disappearing in the assumptions made about her image as “empowered” or “decent”.

Sofie Ashraf, a young musician who raps while wearing a burqa is the perfect example why these stereotypes often do not apply. She is bold, performs with a band onstage, raps about why she loves Islam, and is anything but docile. She says in one of her songs, “Gimme back my faith/ Don’t hijack my faith / Don’t hate me for an idiot’s mistake.” That somehow seems to sum it up. Sofie herself likens her choice of wearing the burqa to a groupie’s wearing a band t-shirt. “We love Islam, so we wear burqa.” she says, and adds that it comes with a responsibility.

What is also ignored is the fact that the real problem where the burqa is concerned is the sexual, physical and emotional violence perpetrated against women who make the choice not to wear the burqa, as well as the fact that a large number of women are forced into the veil. Rather than banning the garment itself, what governments should be focussing on is nabbing the abusers, molesters and thugs, who would deprive women of their freedom to choose.

Women who choose to wear the burqa are choosing to belong – not to feel alienated.
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^That woman basically makes the same point I do:

What is also ignored is the fact that the real problem where the burqa is concerned is the sexual, physical and emotional violence perpetrated against women who make the choice not to wear the burqa, as well as the fact that a large number of women are forced into the veil. Rather than banning the garment itself, what governments should be focussing on is nabbing the abusers, molesters and thugs, who would deprive women of their freedom to choose.
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I do not deny the existence of women who wear burqas who niether are forced to wear it nor consider themselves sub-human; I just think they are a very small portion of those who wear burqas. Also, the assertion that "We love Islam, so we wear Burqa" is odd, considering that the Burqa isn't exactly part of Islam; a lot of Muslim countries do not have many women who wear it. I also have no idea where she was going with that comparison to the bra.
 
misterman said:
Wow, talk about dehumanizing - you assume they are brainwashed, without even letting them speak for themselves. You're the one with no respect for women.

You need to actually listen to Muslim women. Some of them, believe it or not, are intelligent, educated, free, and choose to wear the thing.

Here, this may help:

We Love Islam, So we wear Burqa | Sa
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Female victims of domestic violence also return time after time to those that beat them and they frequently refuse to press charges and even defend them.
 
misterman said:
Women who choose to wear the burqa are choosing to belong – not to feel alienated.
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A few passages in a book about life in Afghanistan speaks to this and the mentality and mindset cultivated in women with respect to wearing the burka and participating in society without being made to feel alienated or like an outcast.
“Burka women are like horses with blinkers: they can look only in one direction. Where the eye narrows, the grille stops and a thick layer of material takes its place; impossible to glance sideways. The whole head must turn; another trick by the burka inventor: a man must know what his wife is looking at.” P. 85


“Awful, there were boys in the class!”
The others stared open-mouthed. “That’s no good,” says here mother. “You mustn’t go back again.”
Leila would not dream of ever going back. The Taliban may have disappeared but they are still present in Leila’s head, and in Bib Gul’s and Sharifa’s and in Sonya’s. The women in Mikrorayon are glad the Taliban era is over, they can play music, they can dance, paint their toe nails—as long as no one sees them and they can hide under the safe burka. Leila is a true child of the civil war, the mullah reign, and the Taliban. A child of fear. She cries inside. The attempt to break away, to do something independent, to learn something, has failed. During five years of Taliban reign girl’s education had been forbidden. Now it is allowed, but she forbids herself.” P.183-4

”No one asked Leila and Leila would not have answered. A well behaved girl does not answer questions about whether she likes so-and-so or not.” P. 189

“Leila is at a standstill; a standstill in the mud of society and the dust of tradition. She has reached a deadlock in a system that is rooted in centuries-old traditions and that paralyzes half the population. The Ministry of Education is a half-hour bus ride away, an impossible half hour. Leila is not used to fighting for something—on the contrary she is used to giving up.” p. 193
​

From Asne Seierstad'a The Bookseller of Kabul.
 
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Dav said:
I do not deny the existence of women who wear burqas who niether are forced to wear it nor consider themselves sub-human;
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You sure sounded like you did.

I just think they are a very small portion of those who wear burqas.
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Maybe. But you don't know what portion, and you don't know which are which.

Also, the assertion that "We love Islam, so we wear Burqa" is odd, considering that the Burqa isn't exactly part of Islam; a lot of Muslim countries do not have many women who wear it.
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Of course it's a part of Islam. No religion is monolithic. They simply interpret a part of the Koran differently than others. Happens in all religions. I don't read the Koran to require burqas either, but I wouldn't say it's "not part of Islam" even if I were a Muslim myself.

I also have no idea where she was going with that comparison to the bra.
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Read it again then. The bra was once viewed as oppressive by some women, but that doesn't mean we should ban it. Just let women choose.
 
ScummyD said:
A few passages in a book about life in Afghanistan speaks to this and the mentality and mindset cultivated in women with respect to wearing the burka and participating in society without being made to feel alienated or like an outcast.
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Gosh, you mean some women don't want to wear it an feel oppressed by it? Thanks for the news flash.

My point was that not all of them do. Some choose to wear it.

Just let them choose, either way.
 
rivrrat said:
The french prove time and again how pathetic their country is.
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This is totally uncalled for. I hate it when people make these sort of comments when the US government does something they disapprove of and I hate it just as much when it's directed at another country. France is not pathetic. The French government, however, if it ever passes this law, absolutely is. If "government" is what you meant by "country", then I agree with you.

Additionally, you may be a little premature in your condemnation of an entire nation. This law is the brain-child of a small segment of the ruling UMP party. Even Sarkozy is not 100% behind it. Even the leader of the far-right National Front is against banning burqas, correctly pointing out that there are already laws in place that forbid the wearing of face-concealing items in certain public places. The proposed law will be discussed
in a couple of months and might not get voted on before the fall. I'd be extremely surprised if it ever passes.
 
Dav said:
The "second one" I referred to was my question about whether your suit is a tool of oppression of the sex that has to wear it.
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Define "tool of oppression." I don't want to wear a suit. My society tells me I have to wear it because I'm male. Does that make it a tool of oppression?

Dav said:
The only reason any woman would want to be dehumanized would be if they have been brainwashed to believe that they are sub-humans whose sole purpose in life is to serve their husband,
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Or maybe YOU are brainwashed into being an individualistic, capitalist American heathen. Ethnocentrism FTW.

Dav said:
which is pretty sad in itself. Anyways, I doubt that a majority of women currently under the burqa would continue doing so if one day her husband/family announced that he would be fine with her keeping it off.
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And I doubt most men in my office would continue wearing suits if one day their employer/clients announced that they'd be fine with them keeping it off.

Dav said:
Do the Amish women have to cover their entire body, including their face, at all times in public? No? That's what I thought.
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So far I haven't heard any substantive differences between those styles of dress, other than you don't think women should cover their faces. But that's just YOUR sense of fashion. ;)
 
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Kandahar said:
Define "tool of oppression." I don't want to wear a suit. My society tells me I have to wear it because I'm male. Does that make it a tool of oppression?
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I was referring to oppression of one sex by another - in this case, of men by women. If suits are oppressive, then they are a case of men oppressing themselves, so it's not really comparable.

Or maybe YOU are brainwashed into being an individualistic, capitalist American heathen. Ethnocentrism FTW.
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Or maybe evolution is brainwashed into making us desire interactions with others, interactions which are in large part reliant on being able to see the other person's face.

And I doubt most men in my office would continue wearing suits if one day their employer/clients announced that they'd be fine with them keeping it off.
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And yet their employer/clients most likely have to wear suits as well. Suits which do not cover the whole face and body.

So far I haven't heard any substantive differences between those styles of dress, other than you don't think women should cover their faces. But that's just YOUR sense of fashion. ;)
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I listed plenty of reasons why having to cover your face is vastly different than other "oppressive" forms of dress. I was under the impression that you hadn't ignored it, too.
 
Kandahar said:
Define "tool of oppression." I don't want to wear a suit. My society tells me I have to wear it because I'm male. Does that make it a tool of oppression?

And I doubt most men in my office would continue wearing suits if one day their employer/clients announced that they'd be fine with them keeping it off.
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A suit is a sign of formality and representation, a burqa is a sign of the woman's obedience to the male in Islamic culture, in a relation of ownership.
Or maybe YOU are brainwashed into being an individualistic, capitalist American heathen. Ethnocentrism FTW.
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Dav's comment seems to be the less media-influenced one here, Kandahar.
 
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