Why are you here?

Kal'Stang said:

I use to be firmly against abortion in all its forms. Much like you chuz. Thanks to many an abortion debate plus other debates mixed in I found the value of personal choice. Which is ultimately what our Constitution is about. I may not personally like the idea of abortion. But I do not have the right to tell someone else what they should believe in or do with their own bodies.

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(Per your comment in bold)

Do you mind if I ask whet there is about abortion,... that you don't like?

Ethereal said:

How are you going to enforce a ban on abortions? Are you going to treat every miscarriage like a possible murder? Are you going to haul women into the police station and inspect their private parts for evidence of an abortion? Yea, that sounds real swell.

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This is all subject for another thread.

Ethereal said:

Just as long as you realize your previous statements were totally inaccurate. Women were, generally speaking, controlled by their husbands and immediate family; it most certainly was draconian. They didn't have the liberty and choice they're afforded today.

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Has the availability of elective abortion done anything to quell the numbers of abused, controlled, or intimidated women?

What about the numbers of women who would like to keep their baby,... But their husband (partner) pushes, intimidates and controls them to the point where they have an abortion?

The knife cuts both ways on this one.

(Think O.J.Simpson and Robert Blake)

Chuz Life said:

(Per your comment in bold)

Do you mind if I ask whet there is about abortion,... that you don't like?

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All of it. Personally I believe much as you do that at the moment of conception there is an entirely new life that should have all the rights that you and I do.

Kal'Stang said:

All of it. Personally I believe much as you do that at the moment of conception there is an entirely new life that should have all the rights that you and I do.

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I know you mean basic rights,.. (i.e. right to it's life) but others might not.

It would really help preserve what's left of my sanity,.... if you could explain how it is that you can justify your position (keep elective abortion legal) having said what you just said (above).

I don't see how you can reconcile the two.

Chuz Life said:

I know you mean basic rights,.. (i.e. right to it's life) but others might not.

It would really help preserve what's left of my sanity,.... if you could explain how it is that you can justify your position (keep elective abortion legal) having said what you just said (above).

I don't see how you can reconcile the two.

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It's simple. I have no right to tell people what to think or do with their own bodies.

Kal'Stang said:

It's simple. I have no right to tell people what to think or do with their own bodies.

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Can people do ANYTHING they want to with their bodies?

Even if it kills another?

Molestation?

Rape?

You said as much yourself that an abortion kills "an entirely new life that should have all the rights that you and I do."

So, how do you explain the desparity in that you probably do agree with laws that tell a rapist or a child molester what they can't do with THEIR bodies,... But you can't do the same for a woman who just changes her mind and doesn't want to be pregnant,.. so she's willing to pay someone to kill and remove her child?

I really am trying hard to see how you reach your conclusions.

But it doesn't make sense to me.

I do owe you a lot of thanks for trying to 'splain it' for me though.

Your patience is appreciated.

Chuz Life said:

Can people do ANYTHING they want to with their bodies?

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Yes.

Chuz Life said:

Even if it kills another?

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No.

Chuz Life said:

Molestation?

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They are not molesting their own bodies so no.

Chuz Life said:

Rape?

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They are not raping their own bodies so no.

Chuz Life said:

You said as much yourself that an abortion kills "an entirely new life that should have all the rights that you and I do."

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You're right I did. And I stand by that.

Chuz Life said:

So, how do you explain the desparity in that you probably do agree with laws that tell a rapist or a child molester what they can't do with THEIR bodies,... But you can't do the same for a woman who just changes her mind and doesn't want to be pregnant,.. so she's willing to pay someone to kill and remove her child?

I really am trying hard to see how you reach your conclusions.

But it doesn't make sense to me.

I do owe you a lot of thanks for trying to 'splain it' for me though.

Your patience is appreciated.

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You forgot the qualifying adendum in my post. "Think".

When you strip everything down to it's bare essence everything on this planet that is biological and living is nothing more than a bunch of cells. Humans are not apart from this. So what is it that makes us humans so much different from any other plant or animal? It's not the cells as every plant and animal has cells also. A dolphin has been shown to be highly intelligent, even at par with humans in some cases. Yet we still consider them animals. So it must not just be that we are more intelligent.

So what is it that makes us so special? There must be a certain "part" (for lack of a better term atm) that seperates us from an animal. A "soul" perhaps? Or perhaps even a certain chemical balance within our bodies.

So you may be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the cells growing in a womb is alive and has human DNA. But you cannot prove what it is that makes us....US.

I believe that, whatever it is that happens, happens at conception. But I cannot prove it. Because I cannot prove it I have no right to tell another person what to think. If a person decides that the "thing" growing with in their bodies is nothing more than a parasite I cannot disprove that. Especially when it does have all the markers of a parasite.

In the end it is that qualifying "specialness" (again for lack of a better word) that makes a human different from every other animal on this planet. And it is that "specialness" which must be proved (and when it happens) before I can move to the side with which I am more comfortable with.

Nope, I haven't changed my views at all. I've definitely refined them some though. I don't personally like the idea of abortion, and I would not encourage a woman to get one, but it's not my place to make decisions for others on what they can do with their bodies, and I don't believe pre-viability fetuses are legal persons or 'human' so they have no rights that need to be protected.

Kal'Stang said:

Yes.

No.

They are not molesting their own bodies so no.

They are not raping their own bodies so no.

You're right I did. And I stand by that.

You forgot the qualifying adendum in my post. "Think".

When you strip everything down to it's bare essence everything on this planet that is biological and living is nothing more than a bunch of cells. Humans are not apart from this. So what is it that makes us humans so much different from any other plant or animal? It's not the cells as every plant and animal has cells also. A dolphin has been shown to be highly intelligent, even at par with humans in some cases. Yet we still consider them animals. So it must not just be that we are more intelligent.

So what is it that makes us so special? There must be a certain "part" (for lack of a better term atm) that seperates us from an animal. A "soul" perhaps? Or perhaps even a certain chemical balance within our bodies.

So you may be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the cells growing in a womb is alive and has human DNA. But you cannot prove what it is that makes us....US.

I believe that, whatever it is that happens, happens at conception. But I cannot prove it. Because I cannot prove it I have no right to tell another person what to think. If a person decides that the "thing" growing with in their bodies is nothing more than a parasite I cannot disprove that. Especially when it does have all the markers of a parasite.

In the end it is that qualifying "specialness" (again for lack of a better word) that makes a human different from every other animal on this planet. And it is that "specialness" which must be proved (and when it happens) before I can move to the side with which I am more comfortable with.

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Damn,.. I hate long posts.

My responses to this could take a week.

Chuz Life said:

Inspired by this comment by REEFEDJIB in the abortion threads;



I would like to know if anyone reading this poll have ever changed or moderated their views on the legality of abortion,.... as a result of reading (or participating in) the 'abortion' threads.

I'm not making the vote public,... your vote will not be seen by others.

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At one time I was okay with abortion if rape or incest was involved or if the baby was going to have some disease or disorder. I do not remember if it was a post from the opposition or someone else that basically changed that view. The logic was brought up that if I truely believe that unborn child is a unborn child or a innocent human being then surely it is not that child's fault that his genetic father raped his mother or that child's parents are possibly from Arkansas and there are millions of people all over the world with diseases and disabilities who are glad to be alive.



Now I will support laws that ban abortion while making exceptions for rape or incest or some disability or disease, assuming that there is a criminal to be charged with rape and testing done to see if there is any inbreeding or disabilities or diseases. Because those laws are less likely to be struck down with those exceptions in place. But if they passed another law shortly after that does not make exceptions for those things then I would support that law too since it is not putting all your eggs into one basket. So that way if the complete ban is struck down then there is still the ban that allows the exceptions which is better than nothing.

jamesrage said:

,... I will support laws that ban abortion while making exceptions for rape or incest or some disability or disease, assuming that there is a criminal to be charged with rape (that's key!) and testing done to see if there is any inbreeding or disabilities or diseases. Because those laws are less likely to be struck down with those exceptions in place. But if they passed another law shortly after that does not make exceptions for those things then I would support that law too since it is not putting all your eggs into one basket. So that way if the complete ban is struck down then there is still the ban that allows the exceptions which is better than nothing.

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Thanks for your clarity, James...

I think you and I could both benefit from a very productive debate on the rape exception , however.

Based on these statistics, we can safely eliminate the abortion forum.

American said:

Based on these statistics, we can safely eliminate the abortion forum.

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American,... do you honestly believe the poll results reflect the reality?

If you read some of the comments,.. just from that alone, you can tell that some have completely ignored the poll 'question' and voted on some other premise.

That said,... if the debates (endless and tiring as they are) save one child?

It's worth it to me.

Also, I'm willing to bet that were we to apply the same poll to just about any other thread, we would get essentially the same percentages.

Few people (if any) join these forums with the intent of changing their own mind.

American said:

Based on these statistics, we can safely eliminate the abortion forum.

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I disagree. I can't read every publication on the planet, so forums like this can be a great source of news I might have missed. I'm here to learn as much as I am here to argue.

MsRetro said:

I disagree. I can't read every publication on the planet, so forums like this can be a great source of news I might have missed. I'm here to learn as much as I am here to argue.

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Mind if we ask how you voted in the poll?

My views about a women's right to choose abortion have changed over the years.

Nothing anyone has posted here so far has made me change my views. Still I find it interesting to see all the different ways people look at the same issue.

Chuz Life said:

Mind if we ask how you voted in the poll?

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As I stated in my first post in this thread, no, participation here has not changed my views.

None of the options fit my stance very well. My personal views on an "issues" like abortion do not reflect my political views about regulating abortions, especially at a federal level.

Both my personal views and political views have been altered by threads on the subject here, but neither of them were altered in a way that is reflected by the poll options.

The answer I give is "yes, my views have been altered, but probably not in a way that most people would readily understand given the emotionally-driven nature of the subject matter".

Tucker Case said:

The answer I give is "yes, my views have been altered, but probably not in a way that most people would readily understand given the emotionally-driven nature of the subject matter".

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There are four yes answers.

Two for keeping it abortion legal and two against it.

Is it unwise for me to ask which one you selected?

Chuz Life said:

There are four yes answers.

Two for keeping it abortion legal and two against it.

Is it unwise for me to ask which one you selected?

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I didn't select any of them because none of the four represent my views.

Abortion is 100% wrong in every, and I do mean every, circumstance. I know liberals don't like moral absolutes, but it is the truth.

K-1 said:

Abortion is 100% wrong in every, and I do mean every, circumstance. I know liberals don't like moral absolutes, but it is the truth.

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It is the truth in your own eyes. Not to the eyes of someone who is pro-choice/pro-abortion.

To make a difference on the internet.....

American said:

Based on these statistics, we can safely eliminate the abortion forum.

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Not really. Almost 25% of the people who voted said that their views have at least slightly changed. That's probably around the average for issues as controversial as abortion.