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Should marijuana be legalized?

Should we legalize pot?

  • Total voters
    113
angrybeaver said:
If smoking pot has alleviated your mental illness then good for you.
For some it has the opposite effect.
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Where's your documentation? I don't believe you.
 
You no a play a the game. You a no make a the rules, angry beaver.
 
angrybeaver said:
BBC NEWS | Health | Cannabis link to depression

THE MEDICAL DANGERS OF MARIJUANA USE

Marijuana - InfoFacts - NIDA

Schizophrenia.com - Marijuana Cannabis and Schizophrenia


These articles seem pretty even handed. As I stated,it is the high thc cannabis that imo is a problem but just how many people need to be at risk to deny you your spliff?
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reefedjib said:
Where's your documentation? I don't believe you.
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All right , all right I'm searching as fast as I can!
 
If any one needs validation on most any topic, feel free to call on me.--I never let the facts, get in the way of a good story.:mrgreen:
 
angrybeaver said:
All right , all right I'm searching as fast as I can!
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It is the old causation versus correlation argument:

Marijuana and Mental Health
A number of studies have shown an association between chronic marijuana use and increased rates of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, and schizophrenia. Some of these studies have shown age at first use to be a factor, where early use is a marker of vulnerability to later problems. However, at this time, it is not clear whether marijuana use causes mental problems, exacerbates them, or is used in attempt to self-medicate symptoms already in existence. Chronic marijuana use, especially in a very young person, may also be a marker of risk for mental illnesses, including addiction, stemming from genetic or environmental vulnerabilities, such as early exposure to stress or violence. At the present time, the strongest evidence links marijuana use and schizophrenia and/or related disorders.6 High doses of marijuana can produce an acute psychotic reaction; in addition, use of the drug may trigger the onset or relapse of schizophrenia in vulnerable individuals.
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In my experience, and in discussions with other users of marijuana, marijuana use is often a self-medication situation where other previous diseases are dealt with. That this often is the case with depression and schizophrenia should be no surprise as diagnosis and treatment can be difficult, but self-medication can be relieving.

I strenuously object to the idea that smoking pot causes these diseases.
 
angrybeaver said:
All right , all right I'm searching as fast as I can!
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link 1: Marijuana - InfoFacts - NIDA

However, at this time, it is not clear whether marijuana use causes mental problems, exacerbates them, or is used in attempt to self-medicate symptoms already in existence.
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link 2: BBC NEWS | Health | Cannabis link to depression

Whether the use of cannabis triggers the onset of schizophrenia or depression in otherwise vulnerable people or whether it actually causes these conditions in non-predisposed people is not yet resolved.
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link 3: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/evidence99/marijuana/Health_1.html

Additional research is being conducted concerning the use of marijuana on the treatment of anxiety and mental disorders.
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link 4: Schizophrenia.com - Marijuana Cannabis and Schizophrenia

the younger a person smokes/uses cannabis, the higher the risk for schizophrenia, and the worse the schizophrenia is when the person does develop it.
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and furthermore:

Overall people were 4.5 times more likely to be schizophrenic at 26 if they were regular cannabis smokers at 15, compared to 1.65 times for those who did not report regular use until age 18
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The case is not as cut and dry as you would like it, and the final link I quoted is almost exclusively showing the elevated risk associated with usage while still juvenile. If anything it underscores the need to get marijuana usage out of the hands of our youth, something that we cannot do with an uncontrolled black market distribution

lets not kid ourselves, there are potential harms to marijuana usage, just as there are potential harms with virtually everything. As it stands currently the only thing prohibition does is compound these problems. These problems exist with or without prohibition, we are spending so much time and effort dealing with the crime problem that we cannot focus on the drug problem.
 
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I got about half an ounce of Hydro here, that needs some serious analytical work done on it.--- You can count on me in a pinch, I'm on it. :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:
 
marduc said:
link 1: Marijuana - InfoFacts - NIDA



link 2: BBC NEWS | Health | Cannabis link to depression



link 3: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/evidence99/marijuana/Health_1.html



link 4: Schizophrenia.com - Marijuana Cannabis and Schizophrenia



and furthermore:




The case is not as cut and dry as you would like it, and the final link I quoted is almost exclusively showing the elevated risk associated with usage while still juvenile. If anything it underscores the need to get marijuana usage out of the hands of our youth, something that we cannot do with an uncontrolled black market distribution

lets not kid ourselves, there are potential harms to marijuana usage, just as there are potential harms with virtually everything. As it stands currently the only thing prohibition does is compound these problems.
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Well at least you agree that pot is not a completly benign drug.
There has not been a great deal of research on the long term use of cannabis but there seems to be , as I said, documented evidence to show that cannabis can exacerbate mental illness..its not cut and dried but its there.
You are certainly correct that it seems the damage seems far worse in young people.
 
angrybeaver said:
Well at least you agree that pot is not a completly benign drug.
There has not been a great deal of research on the long term use of cannabis but there seems to be , as I said, documented evidence to show that cannabis can exacerbate mental illness..its not cut and dried but its there.
You are certainly correct that it seems the damage seems far worse in young people.
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I think of it firmly in the realm of a strong indicator for pre-existing illness and not a causation of that illness. It is not a completely benign drug, as it has impacts on memory, but I absolutely do not believe it causes depression or schizophrenia.
 
reefedjib said:
It is the old causation versus correlation argument:



In my experience, and in discussions with other users of marijuana, marijuana use is often a self-medication situation where other previous diseases are dealt with. That this often is the case with depression and schizophrenia should be no surprise as diagnosis and treatment can be difficult, but self-medication can be relieving.

I strenuously object to the idea that smoking pot causes these diseases.
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The findings applied to heavy cannabis users

Frequent cannabis use can trigger depression, a study suggests.
Researchers have also found further evidence the drug can significantly increase the risk of schizophrenia.

The risks are outlined in three papers in the latest issue of the British Medical Journal.




Cannabis is not a risk-free drug. The public needs to understand the potential dangers of triggering mental illness.

Cliff Prior, Rethink
Researchers say their findings highlight the need for measures to reduce frequent and heavy use of cannabis.
The first paper, by doctors in Australia, found frequent cannabis use among teenage girls in particular can trigger depression.

Their seven-year study of 1,600 teenage girls found girls who used the drug everyday were five times more likely to become depressed and suffer from anxiety compared to those who did not use the drug.

Those who used the drug at least once every week were twice as likely to develop depression compared to non-users.

A second study, by doctors in Sweden, confirmed previous research suggesting that cannabis can increase the risk of developing depression.

Their study of more than 50,000 men found those who had smoked the drug in the late 1960s were 30% more likely to have developed schizophrenia

BBC NEWS | Health | Cannabis link to depression

The evidence is there no matter how much you object.
 
angrybeaver said:
Well at least you agree that pot is not a completly benign drug.
There has not been a great deal of research on the long term use of cannabis but there seems to be , as I said, documented evidence to show that cannabis can exacerbate mental illness..its not cut and dried but its there.
You are certainly correct that it seems the damage seems far worse in young people.
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MY position is grounded in reality, and the reality is that prohibition does more harm than good.

Compared to other substances one could make an argument that marijuana is relatively benign. This is a moot point though.

My reasons for being anti-prohibition is actually rooted in the belief that drugs as a whole are too dangerous to be left uncontrolled.

Prohibition does nothing but cause problems, violence, crime, youth exposure, porous borders, siphoning of billions out of our country, ect, ect, ect.

It does nothing to deal with our drug problem, this exists and will exist regardless of legal status, if anything it exacerbates the problem by spreading misinformation, and exposing people to drugs before they are old enough to make responsible reasoned choices.

The reasons for ending prohibition are because of the allure and the danger of the drugs, it is too great to be left in the hands of whatever foreign criminal group happens to have clawed and shot their way to the top of the ladder.

I want drugs legal because they are dangerous. Allowing something this dangerous to be controlled by ruthless criminals is foolish and does not solve any problems, yet it creates huge problems.

I want drugs legal so that we deal with our drug problem. We are doing no such thing right now, we have created a behemoth of a criminal problem, but for what effect??
 
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marduc said:
MY position is grounded in reality, I do not need to distort or manipulate information.

Compared to other substances one could make an argument that marijuana is relatively benign. This is a moot point though.

My reasons for being anti-prohibition is actually rooted in the belief that drugs as a whole are too dangerous to be left unregulated.

Prohibition does nothing but cause problems, violence, crime, youth exposure, porous borders, siphoning of billions out of our country, ect, ect, ect.

It does nothing to deal with our drug problem, this exists and will exist regardless of legal status, if anything it exacerbates the problem by spreading misinformation, and exposing people to drugs before they are old enough to make responsible reasoned choices.

The reasons for ending prohibition are because of the allure and the danger of the drugs, it is too great to be left in the hands of whatever foreign criminal group happens to have clawed and shot their way to the top of the ladder.

I want drugs legal because they are dangerous. Allowing something this dangerous to be controlled by ruthless criminals is foolish and does not solve any problems, yet it creates huge problems.

I want drugs legal so that we deal with our drug problem. We are doing no such thing right now, we have created a behemoth of a criminal problem, but for what effect??
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Why not go the Singapore,Malaysia and Chinese route and make drug dealing a capital punishment.
Maybe less people would be executed than the people who would die by the drugs and the violence that they create.
Just a thought to debate.
 
angrybeaver said:
Why not go the Singapore,Malaysia and Chinese route and make drug dealing a capital punishment.
Maybe less people would be executed than the people who would die by the drugs and the violence that they create.
Just a thought to debate.
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Abraham Lincoln answered that question for you already. Read my signature.
 
marduc said:
Abraham Lincoln answered that question for you already. Read my signature.
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Fine words dont solve the problem.
If you allow all drugs to be legalised you will have a strung out stoned druggies for citizens,.IMO
If you ban drugs you have a organised criminals making money from what should be a non crime in your opinion.
 
angrybeaver said:
Fine words dont solve the problem.
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No they do not, but they do answer the question you posed to me.

I have been saying this repeatedly, after we get a grip on our criminal problem caused by prohibition, we will then be in a position to deal with our DRUG problem.

Angrybeaver said:
If you allow all drugs to be legalised you will have a strung out stoned druggies for citizens,.IMO
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That is, as you stated, your opinion, it is not backed by real life data however. I could list a ton of studies and a ton of quotes backing the position that legal status of drugs have little to NO impact on rates of usage, but I will just provide one.

if you are really wanting to be honest in your evaluation of this issue look here:

Drug Decriminalization in Portugal: Lessons for Creating Fair and Successful Drug Policies | Glenn Greenwald | Cato Institute: White Paper

If you want to take the lazy way out then just read the intro and the conclusion of the paper that is at that link, although in its entirety it is very revealing.

Since 2001 All drugs have been decriminalized in Portugal. This includes Heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine, you name it, they ALL can be used with ZERO legal repercussions. 9 years for the drug crazed zombification of their nation to develop, and it did not occur, the drug problem did not get worse, it got BETTER, significantly so.

If you want to do even more leg work, look at Swiss heroin distribution (as an interesting aside there is a thread here at DP wondering why they have the lowest crime rate of any nation ), or even at the more recent UK model of government sanctioned heroin distribution, look at how both countries are ecstatic over how successful the programs are at actually dealing with and addressing the problem

Angrybeaver said:
If you ban drugs you have a organised criminals making money from what should be a non crime in your opinion.
Click to expand...

Not just my opinion, but yes, we are making crimes out of things that are not crimes - just as Abe points out in my signature with his "Fine words"
 
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angrybeaver said:
The findings applied to heavy cannabis users
Click to expand...
They apply specifically to people who were heavy users in their adolescence:
"The first paper, by doctors in Australia, found frequent cannabis use among teenage girls in particular can trigger depression."
"Their study of more than 50,000 men found those who had smoked the drug in the late 1960s were 30% more likely to have developed schizophrenia"

Also note that the way it is phrased:
"Frequent cannabis use can trigger depression, a study suggests."

Both have been pointed out by marduc and myself earlier.
 
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roderic said:
They apply specifically to people who were heavy users in their adolescence:
"The first paper, by doctors in Australia, found frequent cannabis use among teenage girls in particular can trigger depression."
"Their study of more than 50,000 men found those who had smoked the drug in the late 1960s were 30% more likely to have developed schizophrenia"

Also note that the way it is phrased:
"Frequent cannabis use can trigger depression, a study suggests."

Both have been pointed out by marduc and myself earlier.
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I would hazard guess and say most tokers started in adolescence.
What we havent got is strong data of long term use in adulthood.
Do you think that after a certain age cannabis completely stops harming you..?
Both you and marduc pointed out that frequent use can trigger depression but others denies it.
Because you two admit this does it mean I must never mention again?
 
marduc said:
No they do not, but they do answer the question you posed to me.

I have been saying this repeatedly, after we get a grip on our criminal problem caused by prohibition, we will then be in a position to deal with our DRUG problem.



That is, as you stated, your opinion, it is not backed by real life data however. I could list a ton of studies and a ton of quotes backing the position that legal status of drugs have little to NO impact on rates of usage, but I will just provide one.

if you are really wanting to be honest in your evaluation of this issue look here:

Drug Decriminalization in Portugal: Lessons for Creating Fair and Successful Drug Policies | Glenn Greenwald | Cato Institute: White Paper

If you want to take the lazy way out then just read the intro and the conclusion of the paper that is at that link, although in its entirety it is very revealing.

Since 2001 All drugs have been decriminalized in Portugal. This includes Heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine, you name it, they ALL can be used with ZERO legal repercussions. 9 years for the drug crazed zombification of their nation to develop, and it did not occur, the drug problem did not get worse, it got BETTER, significantly so.

If you want to do even more leg work, look at Swiss heroin distribution (as an interesting aside there is a thread here at DP wondering why they have the lowest crime rate of any nation ), or even at the more recent UK model of government sanctioned heroin distribution, look at how both countries are ecstatic over how successful the programs are at actually dealing with and addressing the problem





Not just my opinion, but yes, we are making crimes out of things that are not crimes - just as Abe points out in my signature with his "Fine words"
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I've done some leg work and the first article I found about Switzerland reveals that they are giving free heroin to ADDICTS and they believe that cannabis should still be banned.

Not exactly the drug utopia that you suggested.

BBC NEWS | Europe | Swiss approve prescription heroin



Swiss voters have approved a radical health policy that offers prescription heroin to addicts on a permanent basis.

Final results from the national referendum showed 68% of voters supported the plan.

The scheme, allowing addicts to inject the drug under medical supervision at a clinic, began in Zurich 14 years ago before spreading across the country.

But in another referendum vote, 63% of voters rejected the decriminalisation of cannabis.
The heroin vote was one of a series of referendums held to decide policy on illegal drugs.


SWISS HEROIN PROGRAMME
Running since 1994
Used by 1,300 addicts
Includes 23 centres nationwide
Also offers psychiatric counseling


Radical Swiss plan
Under the scheme, addicts visit clinics up to twice a day, where they inject the drug under medical supervision. They can also be treated for other medical issues or mental health problems, out correspondent says.

The policy is described as one of last resort - prescribing addicts with the very drug that caused their problems in the first place - but supporters say it works, and Swiss voters appear to have agreed, the BBC's Imogen Foulkes in Berne says.

Switzerland will be the first country to include it in government policy.

Supporters say it has had positive results - getting long-term addicts out of Switzerland's once notorious "needle parks" and reducing drug-related crime.

Opponents say heroin prescription sends the wrong message to young people and harms the addicts themselves.

On the cannabis issue, the government had opposed a change to the law.

Swiss police regularly turn a blind eye to moderate cannabis use.

But recent studies suggesting that long-term use of the drug may be more harmful than previously thought had looked likely to encourage a "No" to decriminalisation.

Jo Lang, a Green Party MP from Zug, said he was disappointed that the proposal to change the law on cannabis had failed.

"People have died from alcohol and heroin, but not from cannabis," said Mr Lang.
 
Portugal seems to be trying to reduce the amount of drug use without prosecuting the user which is brilliant and if can be done would of course be far better than prohibition but the people on this thread that want to decriminalise pot do not want to stop using it..they want to use it as much as they like without fear of prosecution.
So the aim of the portuguese government is different from the premise of this thread.
But thank you for the Portuguese reference I didnt know about that.
 
You can tell who the potheads are by their fervent defense of legalization.
 
American said:
You can tell who the potheads are by their fervent defense of legalization.
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So true,...

Just as you can pretty much tell (in the abortion threads) who has and who has not hired someone to,....

Oh... look at the time,...

:2wave:
 
Chuz Life said:
So true,...

Just as you can pretty much tell (in the abortion threads) who has and who has not hired someone to,....

Oh... look at the time,...

:2wave:
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Well, I can take American's remark as humour, and at least it's related to the topic, but your suggestive comment crosses the line.
I find this rather insulting.
 
roderic said:
Well, I can take American's remark as humour, and at least it's related to the topic, but your suggestive comment crosses the line. I find this rather insulting.
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Does it matter to you if I am insulted by the majority of your posts?

Or is it inconsequential?
 
Wow, I thought I was being friendly on the one, very recent occasion we have crossed paths, I had no idea you "are insulted by the majority of (my) posts".
Have I made any suggestions about what you may or may not do or have done in your private life, or made any negative references towards your person? I don't remember even having commented in a negative way on any of your posts, before now.

Or have we argued with each other before? it cannot have been the 'majority' of my posts, or I would remember.
 
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