What is the most powerful nation in Europe?

Laila said:

The 'United Kingdom' part includes Wales and Scotland

It should have been 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' but no need to be picky

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GB doesnt include NI? Damn. :shock:

kaya'08 said:

GB doesnt include NI? Damn. :shock:

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Great Britain is comprised of England, Scotland, and Wales only. Its very common for people to add NI in it but it's not right.

Maximus Zeebra said:

What? The UK have almost no say in the EU. France is the political power, Germany the military power. As long as these two cooperate, the power of the UK is virtually meaningless.

No UK policies have been implemented in Europe the past 30 years.

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Germany = the Economic power. Sorry...

Ikari said:

That's all crap within Europe doing stupid crap. Overall for global concerns, out of Europe it's the UK which is listened to the most. It's almost always America and the UK. France can talk about crap with the EU, but worldwide no one cares about the EU. The biggest power out of Western Europe is the UK in terms of military and politics.

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Nah. French policies within Europe is forming the whole contient, and is now the most viable global policy. I suggest you read up on what is actually happening in Europe, most people are quite ignorant of it.

Mark Leonard is a British person with quite a rich insight into the workings of the EU. I suggest you perhaps read his book, which is rather short but a good summary. Also Jermey Rifkin has written a more extensive book about what the EU is and becoming, and how European policies are influencing world evens and will continue to do so far more than US and UK policies already and the foreseeable future.

France is the political driver of the European project and the German economy is an engine of not just the European economy but the world economy. Without German quality export we would be left with "outsourced American stuff"(computer technology) and Chinese "junk".
I bet many people also underestimate the Japanses economy and its massive role in the modern world.

France and the UK are equal military powers in all ways, while Germany is quite weak, and Italy underestimated.

The UK global contribution is nothing short of American ideas, the British have not had any independent foreign policy since the world war.

Ikari said:

That's because Europe is often though of in terms of East and West.

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The re-uniting of west and east is massivly underestimated. Imagine getting a huge number of highly educated, highly motivated people into your economy at the same time. That has never before happened, and is happening in Western Europe now. On the other side, no economy has ever integrated a low priced economy into a high priced economy. Eastern Europe has massive potential, and western Europe is free to use it.

Maximus Zeebra said:

The re-uniting of west and east is massivly underestimated. Imagine getting a huge number of highly educated, highly motivated people into your economy at the same time.

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That's pretty much what always happens here. The US has some of the best Universities of the world and we often absorb many of the world's smartest people.

Maximus Zeebra said:

That has never before happened,

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Maybe not in Europe. Eastern Europe is still relatively f'd up. There can be a lot of potential there, especially if say Russia can establish a true democratic Republic form of government (as opposed to the organized crime controlled one they have now).

stalin_was_a_nice_being said:

LOL....shows how much you know. Germany has one of the best army in the world and when compared to that of France. Germany would most likely win the war, however against UK. I'm not too sure. Germany has a very good arsenal. H&K guns are considered the best in the world. And the GSG9 is one of the best special forces in the world and it is being used in Afghanistan. France wouldn't stand a chance against the Germans.

Russia doesn't have much strength these days, things need to change. I would consider it powerful just because of it's sheer size but with jets the distance becomes much shorter. Russia doesn't have the numbers of modern aircraft or ships to stand a chance against the UK. And in land, the Russians would easily be defeated by the Germans or UK, not the French though! And nukes don't do much good nowadays. No nation on this earth currently can use nukes and get away with it.

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What? That is absurd. The French alongside the UK has a massive military industry. The Germans dont have that. Also the German military is inflexible. The French forces are equally trained as the UK forces, and all have the best of the best, including not only those 3 but also Italy for example.
France also spends 1/3rd more than Germany, slightly more than the UK. The French forces are in additon professional, while Germany has conscription.
Even so, the French military forces are about equal in size to that of Germany, whom both are bigger than the UK, while the French have a wider variety of forces types, including the Gendermerie paramilitary force, which are always in training and active standby, being one of the units in the world with most actual experience in a variety of areas.
The French navy is not as strong as the UK navy, but far better equipped than the German navy.

Actual military strenght is about equal in the UK and France, while Germany is far behind in actual power, bogged down by inactive military policies since the world war. Italy for example is perhaps stronger militarily than Germany and also feature very highly trained forces and paramilitary units.

All in all Germany have a superior military potential yes, far stronger than France and the UK, but they arent taking the time, and they dont care to use it. Also in any time of global crisis, the Germans would easily build a strongest military inudstry and train the best troops with the highest motivation. But that isnt how it is now, Germany certainly dont have the strongest military in Europe, its number 3 or 4 when excluding Russia.

Ikari said:

The UK is not dependent upon the US. The UK and the US maybe have very friendly relations, but one isn't dependent upon the other. The UK has one of the strongest militaries in Europe. It may not be on the "size" of Germany's, but it's well more advanced. Their political power is probably the highest in Western Europe. The UK holds more influence places other than Europe (yes, it's hard for maybe some of you to understand, there's more than Europe).

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I am just left with one question here.. Where is the UK political influence and what has it resulted in the past 20 years for example?


(answer=nothing)

kaya'08 said:

Hence the entire point of European federalism. Its a pipe dream. The EU is a German fantasy.

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Nah, its a European project. All countries are involved, all countries influence it, all countries accept anything the EU does. The EU is a cooperation project between all the nations in the EU.

stalin_was_a_nice_being said:

Whenever power is mentioned it turns into the "biggest dick" discussion.

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Dammit. We forgot to mention Turkey and military power. It is one of the most powerful militaries in Europe. Perhaps second to Russia, ahead of France/UK and Germany/Italy.

Laila said:

Maybe in my nightmares.

But no, US would win by a longshot.
US is a much better place than Europe politically. Besides, it would be open to competition and business. Europe has a deep seated dislike of capitalism and over regulates
No wonder businesses flee EU.

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Its not all about having the least regulation making the best place. Actually people are quite stupid, and companies dont mind making their profits over the corpses of millions of people. I am happy we have strong regulation in Europe.

Europe dont dislike capitalism, we love capitalism, its the freest least oppressed market in the world, and by far the biggest and most diverse, and its capitalist!
But in ADDITION to capitalism we also have socialism, which simply makes Europe much better and fair than America.

Businesses flee EU? Ridiculous, Europe is becoming the best place in the world for business and its by far the best and most diverse contient of the world for investments. The only businesses that flee are the crooked ones, and they flee to the US and the UK(the people who steal money from honest workers), and China(production slaves with less regulation of labour than Europe). Good f***ing riddance!

PeteEU said:

Like it or not, the US is not the most popular nation around even with the election of Obama. The trust lost under Bush will take time to regain.

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Its never going to be regained. It will strengten from how it was under Bush, but it will never become like it was for example in the 90s when Europe just loved everything about America.

Laila said:

I have heard people in France and Germany sit there and over generalize and call Americans blood thirsty (Amusing that it comes from the Germans really)

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So in which year do you live? (where Germans are bloodthirsty).

Ikari said:

That's pretty much what always happens here. The US has some of the best Universities of the world and we often absorb many of the world's smartest people.

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Yes, you have the TOP universities, but the average quality is the same as in Europe. Also those people tend to get educated in the US and move away.

You do have excellent universities, one of the few things I really envy about the US. The way they are organized :good_job:

Ikari said:

Maybe not in Europe. Eastern Europe is still relatively f'd up. There can be a lot of potential there, especially if say Russia can establish a true democratic Republic form of government (as opposed to the organized crime controlled one they have now).

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I said in all of the world, it has never happened on this scale. Eastern Europe is huge, and they were all integrated into western Europe at the same time, adding to our already massive diversity, and increasing overall motivation, diversity of education, price levels, investment oppertunities and so fourth.

You keep underestimating regions/countries and people based on GDP.

kaya'08 said:

None of them are capable of travelling as far as the British isles unlike ours. Plus we have a considerable force in Jersey and if im not mistaken a few launch bases there too. We'd cause unprecedented destruction before they could amass a Navy to travel towards us.

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Jersey? So you basically have no clue on what your are talking about. It is blind nationalism and not factual.

Im not too sure about the Brits ill have to research on this a bit before i can reply.

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Fine by me.

Oh come on. The French had a hissy fit and withdrew their membership. What political support do they need? They are just as useless in NATO as they where out. It didnt make a difference to anybody. The US and UK share a strong alliance and thats what i meant. Lets be honest, if the US says "scratch my arse", alot of people do it, and the world inevitably follows.

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Yes exactly, .. the US says jump and the UK jumps.. the rest of Europe asks why?

Oh come on. Is that your excuse? You must have 24 plus years on me. Everybody knows Denmark folk are small. :2rofll:

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Hardly! Compared to Turks we are freaking giants.

Laila said:

Canada is the most popular country in the world. Doesn't mean diddly squat on the world stage.
Being 'liked' isn't always a option, sometimes it pays to be feared.

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Rather be respected than feared. Being feared has a tendency to spawn hatred and opposition. Many a great empires and countries have fallen because they were feared and not respected. The Swiss have been respected and not feared.. when was the last time the Swiss were invaded and attacked?

Well then you have a short term memory.
From the get go, there was a air of superiority many Europeans have which increased after Afghanistan.
We are the more 'refined, intelligent type'. I have heard people in France and Germany sit there and over generalize and call Americans blood thirsty (Amusing that it comes from the Germans really)

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Considering the last 40 years of history people claiming that the American's are bloodthirsty are 100% correct. The number of wars the US has started and carried out since 1945 dwarf the number of wars Germany or France have started or carried out. But taken over the last 2000 years, yea then it is ironic, just as it is ironic when American's condemn Germany for eugenics and genocide...

I have never had WW2 thrown in my face and any case where I do see it thrown in on this board in many cases is when a European (I don't need to name names but we all know who that European is) shouts about not needing US and how violent it is.

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Give it time, on these boards there is a tendency for American's to throw WW2 comments at Europeans when we are critical of parts of the US history or society or dont agree with them. I mean, they still use the WW2 reference almost every time the lead up to the Iraq war comes around.. And just search the forms for WW2 comments and you shall see.. The US won WW2 without any help according to many of the comments here

C. Gerstle said:

Americans want to believe it is Great Britain, but most Europeans and geopolitical analysts say it is Germany. What do you think?

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I think if the UK had no nukes, maybe.

PeteEU said:

Rather be respected than feared. Being feared has a tendency to spawn hatred and opposition. Many a great empires and countries have fallen because they were feared and not respected. The Swiss have been respected and not feared.. when was the last time the Swiss were invaded and attacked?

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When was the last time the Swiss were relevant?

PeteEU said:

Considering the last 40 years of history people claiming that the American's are bloodthirsty are 100% correct. The number of wars the US has started and carried out since 1945 dwarf the number of wars Germany or France have started or carried out. But taken over the last 2000 years, yea then it is ironic, just as it is ironic when American's condemn Germany for eugenics and genocide...

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What absolute anti-American garbage. Europe has been right there with us most of the time. Don't pretend like it's all America's fault. Y'all were right there too.

PeteEU said:

Give it time, on these boards there is a tendency for American's to throw WW2 comments at Europeans when we are critical of parts of the US history or society or dont agree with them. I mean, they still use the WW2 reference almost every time the lead up to the Iraq war comes around.. And just search the forms for WW2 comments and you shall see.. The US won WW2 without any help according to many of the comments here

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Who's bringing up WW II now?

PeteEU said:

Rather be respected than feared. Being feared has a tendency to spawn hatred and opposition. Many a great empires and countries have fallen because they were feared and not respected. The Swiss have been respected and not feared.. when was the last time the Swiss were invaded and attacked?

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Any nation with size and large amounts of people will get ambitious and try to invade their neighbors and much more. Eventually though they stretch their limit for breaking point and end. However, the US and this modern era we have airplanes tha go real fast and this cuts the distance and our communication is real fast so the ability to talk with one another is faster too. So stretching to the point of being overstreched where supplies are not coming in is not too realistic.

Also switzerland is not so important to anywhere in the world and the only reason they are recognized is for having banks that hide the money of many rich people.

Considering the last 40 years of history people claiming that the American's are bloodthirsty are 100% correct. The number of wars the US has started and carried out since 1945 dwarf the number of wars Germany or France have started or carried out. But taken over the last 2000 years, yea then it is ironic, just as it is ironic when American's condemn Germany for eugenics and genocide...

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bs the Europeans have started wars for no better reason then he insulted me which says more about the europeans than the americans whose leaders can at least can be made fun of.

Give it time, on these boards there is a tendency for American's to throw WW2 comments at Europeans when we are critical of parts of the US history or society or dont agree with them. I mean, they still use the WW2 reference almost every time the lead up to the Iraq war comes around.. And just search the forms for WW2 comments and you shall see.. The US won WW2 without any help according to many of the comments here

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You should know we also won ww1.

PeteEU said:

Jersey? So you basically have no clue on what your are talking about. It is blind nationalism and not factual.

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You might want to search up Jersey Garrison. Its location could be very advantegous against any French attack especially to any Naval force or air support. As for the Frenchies, they'd be hard pressed even reaching our shores without taking a very heavy toll.

Yes exactly, .. the US says jump and the UK jumps.. the rest of Europe asks why?

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No, France asks why. And thats just about it. Regardless, keeping our cousins happy is just a gaurentee any European power is going to have to reshape their boarders if they think they could attack the UK. I definetly wouldnt put it past the Germans though. They dont have the flexibility or the experience to match up with the British.

Hardly! Compared to Turks we are freaking giants.

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Are you speaking from first hand experience? :mrgreen:

Turkey should have been put on the list. They have the most powerful army in Europe.

kaya'08 said:

Turkey should have been put on the list. They have the most powerful army in Europe.

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are you just saying that because you are of Turkish descent?

stalin_was_a_nice_being said:

are you just saying that because you are of Turkish descent?

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No not at all. I think beside Russia and the UK, Turkey is probably one of the most powerful in Europe. When you take into accounts its strategic advantages too, i think Turkey could top the list quiet easily.

EDIT: I just noticed Maximus made a similar comment if you go back a few pages.

People arent really taking into account that Russia doesnt have a strong economy - infact its relatively miniscule. There are 145 million inhabitants and its GDP stands at only 1+ trillion. Thats a tiny economy for such a large population and with such a big economic potential as a result. They dont have the money or economic strength to maintain a massive offensive or use their nukes effectively.

kaya'08 said:

People arent really taking into account that Russia doesnt have a strong economy - infact its relatively miniscule. There are 145 million inhabitants and its GDP stands at only 1+ trillion. Thats a tiny economy for such a large population and with such a big economic potential as a result. They dont have the money or economic strength to maintain a massive offensive or use their nukes effectively.

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And on top of that, Russia is known for not really fighting the enemy face-to-face unless they know they can win. They typically let the enemy conquer a lot of their land because they can afford to. And then strike them once the enemy is too far in and the winter freezes their butts off.