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Would the rich miss 5%?

Happy Days said:
What do you think, would people earning over $250K a year miss 5%?
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$12,500 can buy a lot of things in this country so yes they would miss it just as a man making $30,000 a year would miss $1,500 if the government took an extra 5% out of his check.$12,500 can buy a car, plus thats a lot of hours of your life working that you will never get back.
 
Happy Days said:
What do you mean, "because they didn't buy their own"? That wasn't part of the discussion. If we all paid a percentage of our income then we could work together and provide health care for everyone. If someone is sick then they need to be able to see a doctor to get well. We are a civilized nation, not a bunch of selfish gits who don't care about our fellow countrymen, aren't we?
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You said you wanted the rich to pay an extra 5%, implying that the poor would not be paying this extra 5%. Meaning that the poor would be getting the benefits from the rich.

Nice use of the "pull on my heartstrings" argument there. I personally am not a "selfish git". I just think I am more entitled to the fruits of my own work than other people are. If that makes me selfish, so be it.

What you are advocating, as far as I can tell, is a universal, single payer, health care system where the price is saddled upon the rich. You honestly expect such a thing to work?
 
Happy Days said:
What good would that do anyone? I can give $20 to every homeless man I see every day and it won't fix the healthcare system. That's the topic here.
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So, taking from the 'haves' and giving to the 'have nots' doesn't work, eh?

That is what you're advocating though.

What will "fix" the healthcare system to get the ****ing government's nose out of it along with getting rid of health insurance altogether AND tort reform.

None of the bull**** coming from our retards in govt right now are actually addressing the issue. All they are doing is essentially taking $20 from one person and giving it to another.

Lastly, if I had more of my money to give my family, they wouldn't NEED any government assistance. But instead, my money is stolen from me by the thousands, making it impossible for me to give my family the support they need.

What you and others like you seem to advocate is just that... take so much of our money away that our only choice is to rely on the government. And I say, **** that.
 
i think theres a big difference in how people make money

its one thing if you work for a salary

another thing if you run a business

and another thing completely if you are a market speculator

in first case i don't see why you should pay more than anybody else simply because you work harder

in second place you should maybe pay a little more but not so much that you may get discouraged, sell your business and go work for a salary

in the last case - **** you ! you should be taxed at 100% minus some food stamps.
 
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Would they miss it? I'd say the liquid rich wouldn't. The super leveraged rich would dearly. Marginally, that 5% is pretty low in utility compared to utility for the poor. That said, just because they wouldn't miss it doesn't make it right to increase taxation.

However, if 5% more taxes prevents a financial collapse of the US down the road and maintains the system which allows the rich to maintain and build wealth, then the rich should be on board with this as the overall gains to them from paying the extra 5% are far, far, far cheaper then the costs of a financial collapse and likely destruction of much of their wealth in addition to the collapse of the mechanism to build more wealth in the processes they are accustom to.

What people tend to ignore is the $50+ trillion unfunded liabilities sitting in a dark corner in the US. They focus on short term issues and ignore the real problem. A minor tax increase is nothing compared to what we'll have to do to pay off that monster. Some perspective is in order.
 
If taxing them an exta 5% is "Stealing" from them....what do you guys call the millions in dollars that was given to them by GWB's taxcuts for the rich, corporate charity?
 
disneydude said:
If taxing them an exta 5% is "Stealing" from them....what do you guys call the millions in dollars that was given to them by GWB's taxcuts for the rich, corporate charity?
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Wait, wait wait.... decreasing the amount of money one steals from someone is now considered "giving" them money?? Seriously?

Yeah, Okay. I'll come by your house and steal food every night. Then later maybe I'll decide to take less food and you can consider that 'charity', mkay?
 
rivrrat said:
Wait, wait wait.... decreasing the amount of money one steals from someone is now considered "giving" them money?? Seriously?

Yeah, Okay. I'll come by your house and steal food every night. Then later maybe I'll decide to take less food and you can consider that 'charity', mkay?
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That's one way to spin it.

So let me get it straight.....anytime you cut taxes for the wealthy you are simply taking less of their money...
But anytime taxes are raised....you're stealing money from them.

I gotta hand it to you for your creativity though.:doh
 
What is with this notion that taxes = stealing?

Sure, if you taxed someone and then provided absolutely nothing, that would be theft. But that isn't this country. I blame American history. We're willing to revolt over relatively tiny taxes used to recover costs to protect us from Indians while the British in England were in many ways financially raped to pay for our costs. Go figure.

Increasing taxes without increasing net value to the taxed in services, stability, etc over the long run is not acceptable though.
 
obvious Child said:
What is with this notion that taxes = stealing?

Sure, if you taxed someone and then provided absolutely nothing, that would be theft. But that isn't this country. I blame American history. We're willing to revolt over relatively tiny taxes used to recover costs to protect us from Indians while the British in England were in many ways financially raped to pay for our costs. Go figure.

Increasing taxes without increasing net value to the taxed in services, stability, etc over the long run is not acceptable though.
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In their minds.....its "stealing" if its taken from the rich.
Only the poor and the middle classes should pay taxes.
 
disneydude said:
In their minds.....its "stealing" if its taken from the rich.
Only the poor and the middle classes should pay taxes.
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Not really. They are opposed to tax increases in general on anyone, which in theory is not bad, but somewhat ignorant of economic realities. The mantra of taxation = theft is rather lame and incoherent when you examine actual taxation in the modern world.

Taxation can become theft under certain conditions. But taxation in general is not theft. Right now taxes are being used to bail out big corporate firms who have many shareholders who are rich who are likely to profit quite well after buying the stock back at rock bottom prices. Hard to reasonably argue that's theft when there is clear benefit to the rich person holding the stock. Some people tend to forget that our taxation is largely going to maintain the system in which the rich made their money.

Now, if we had a system where there was no benefit to the rich, I'd be in the same boat calling taxation of the rich theft.

If you really want to talk about theft, it's inflation. That's is by definition theft. You involuntarily lose wealth and you get nothing in return.
 
disneydude said:
If taxing them an exta 5% is "Stealing" from them....what do you guys call the millions in dollars that was given to them by GWB's taxcuts for the rich, corporate charity?
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Stealing.

All subsidies going to the poor, to the corporations, to business sectors, and to everything not granted in the Constitution, is theft from the citizens.
 
obvious Child said:
What people tend to ignore is the $50+ trillion unfunded liabilities sitting in a dark corner in the US. They focus on short term issues and ignore the real problem. A minor tax increase is nothing compared to what we'll have to do to pay off that monster. Some perspective is in order.
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A minor tax increase will never pay it off. Eventually, this baby is going down.
 
lizzie said:
Stealing.

All subsidies going to the poor, to the corporations, to business sectors, and to everything not granted in the Constitution, is theft from the citizens.
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You appear to have confused the process of government spending.

Where the money goes after it is collected by taxation is not part of taxes. Therefore, your argument of the final ending point of taxes = theft is invalid.

Is the money a non-profit makes from engaging in commercial business completely unrelated to its purpose not taxable because it's using it for its exempted purpose? Not a chance.

Just because you don't like where the money goes does not equate to taxation in itself equating to theft. Generation and final point are two different concepts.

And the Constitution dictates that Congress has the power to levy taxes.

A minor tax increase will never pay it off. Eventually, this baby is going down.
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It's questionable if a 50% increase will pay it off. We're going to need to jack up taxes and cut spending if we are to have any hope.
 
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obvious Child said:
Not really. They are opposed to tax increases in general on anyone, which in theory is not bad, but somewhat ignorant of economic realities. The mantra of taxation = theft is rather lame and incoherent when you examine actual taxation in the modern world.

Taxation can become theft under certain conditions. But taxation in general is not theft. Right now taxes are being used to bail out big corporate firms who have many shareholders who are rich who are likely to profit quite well after buying the stock back at rock bottom prices. Hard to reasonably argue that's theft when there is clear benefit to the rich person holding the stock. Some people tend to forget that our taxation is largely going to maintain the system in which the rich made their money.

Now, if we had a system where there was no benefit to the rich, I'd be in the same boat calling taxation of the rich theft.

If you really want to talk about theft, it's inflation. That's is by definition theft. You involuntarily lose wealth and you get nothing in return.
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You never hear them complain about taxes on the middle class and the poor...but they sure do squawk when the rich are asked to pay.
 
disneydude said:
You never hear them complain about taxes on the middle class and the poor...but they sure do squawk when the rich are asked to pay.
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Eh. The rich do a better job on PR then the middle and poor do. I have a somewhat cynical view on taxation and its relation to wealth, largely because I view taxation as little more than paying to maintain the current system. As it stands now, certain groups of the rich pay their share of total liabilities in relation to total wealth as do the poor and middle class. Certain percentage bands do better then others, but on the whole most groups pay their proportion.
 
disneydude said:
That's one way to spin it.

So let me get it straight.....anytime you cut taxes for the wealthy you are simply taking less of their money...
But anytime taxes are raised....you're stealing money from them.

I gotta hand it to you for your creativity though.:doh
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Yeah, if the taxes are raised on ANYONE, it's stealing more of their money. When they lower the taxes on ANYONE, it's stealing less of their money.

How is that blatantly obvious fact even remotely 'creative'? It's just simple logic. :doh
 
rivrrat said:
Yeah, if the taxes are raised on ANYONE, it's stealing more of their money. When they lower the taxes on ANYONE, it's stealing less of their money.

How is that blatantly obvious fact even remotely 'creative'? It's just simple logic. :doh
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So nobody should pay any taxes because all taxes are stealing?

You plan on living on the moon?
 
Taxes are the price that you pay for living in a great country.

Everyone wants all the advantages but no one wants to pay for them.

Guess what...the luxuries that we enjoy in this country as opposed to a third world country are not free.
 
rivrrat said:
Yeah, if the taxes are raised on ANYONE, it's stealing more of their money. When they lower the taxes on ANYONE, it's stealing less of their money.

How is that blatantly obvious fact even remotely 'creative'? It's just simple logic. :doh
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Do you understand the concept of Hobbes's Social Contract?
 
disneydude said:
So nobody should pay any taxes because all taxes are stealing?

You plan on living on the moon?
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Yes, taxes are stealing. We should only be paying an absolute minimum amount for bare necessity government (police, fire, national defense, legal system - that's pretty much it). That wouldn't take much. Anything else is too much.
 
rivrrat said:
Yes, taxes are stealing. We should only be paying an absolute minimum amount for bare necessity government (police, fire, national defense, legal system - that's pretty much it). That wouldn't take much. Anything else is too much.
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Wait what?

First you say that taxation is theft. But then you say that some taxes are okay and implicitly argue that they aren't theft.

Care to examine your positions? Your mantra of taxation = theft is misguided and quite wrong.
 
rivrrat said:
i.e., totalitarianism? Yes.
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So you prefer the natural state of man? Anarchy? Where everything is decided by violence?

I wasn't aware that every country was Totalitarian. After all, they all engage in the Social Contract, and since you consider that to be the same as totalitarianism, logically it concludes you believe all countries are Totalitarian. Care to support this notion?
 
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obvious Child said:
Wait what?

First you say that taxation is theft. But then you say that some taxes are okay and implicitly argue that they aren't theft.

Care to examine your positions? Your mantra of taxation = theft is misguided and quite wrong.
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It's still theft. But a very tiny amount of taxation is necessary to in order to have a government at all. Very tiny.

However, I'm perfectly fine with sectioning off a part of the country and designate it as the anarchist area. Then give people the choice to pay a tiny amount of taxes to fund a fire, police and judicial system and live in the area where those operate, or to not pay those funds and live in the anarchist area where they don't operate. I have no issue with that at all. But unless we are willing to quarantine off such an area, a small amount of theft will be necessary to sustain a very small, functional government.
 
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