Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

scourge99 · Nov 25, 2009

Goobieman said:
Most Big Bang theories posit that all of the matter and all of the energy currently found in the universe had condensed/was compressed into a single point.

this is just plain wrong.
Many theists don't understand that the big bang claims A LOT less than believed.

What you are discussing is a singularity which is an additional theory on top of the big bang theory.

presluc · Nov 25, 2009

scourge99 said:
1) You are using the term "logical" colloquially rather than in terms of referring to the system of formal logic.
2) Killing another can be justified. It depends on the circumstances.
3) How is this at all relevant to your previous claims?

1) Logic, as in what is deemed morally permissable or impermissable or "common sense" changes. What is logical, as in what things conform or violate the system of formal logic has not changed.
You need to understand the difference between logic as a system of reasoning with well defined rules, and logic as used colloquially to mean "common sense" or moral"

Systeme of reasoning "common sense"?

Are you telling me war , destruction attempted genocide muder over a differance of thought , this is logical.
That in this world the whole human race is just a syteme of reasoning that is logical?

That sounds a bit close to the old reteric by organized religion.
"We know what is right we know what is wrong"
Think like us talk like us walk like us and you will be right if not you are wrong.

Tucker Case · Nov 25, 2009

Lightdemon said:
Then when we say God cannot do the impossible, it is an illogical argument isn't it?

It's nonsense because the word impossible is not a noun.

Goobieman · Nov 25, 2009

Tucker Case said:
Your argument is based entirely on using adjectives as nouns. The contradiction exists because you used a word incorrectly. Not because of anything else. It is impossible real nouns to create a contradiction. You can't "create" an adjective, because, well... it's not a thing.

:doh
Sigh.

As I said, you're trying to dictate a limit to the limitless, but, necessarily, the limitless has no limits. Because the power is limitless, whatever you want to argue cannot be done, can.

If you want to structure your position as 'He cannot do the impossible because if He can do it, it must be possible', then you argument that 'He can only do what is possible' is rhetorical, as anything is posisble for someone with unlimited power.

Tucker Case · Nov 25, 2009

Goobieman said:
:doh
Sigh.

As I said, you're trying to dictate a limit to the limitless; this cannot be done, as the limitless has no limits. Because the power is limitless, whatever you want to argue cannot be done, can.

But you do not have limitless power so you must use adjectives properly and not as nouns to make an argument.

If you want to structure your position as 'He cannot do the impossible because if He can do it, it must be possible', then you argument that 'He can only do what is possible' is rhetorical, as anything is posisble for someone with unlimited power.

I'm not going to structure my argument like that because to do so I would have to be ignorant of how words are used. "The impossible" is not a thing. It is not an action.

My argument is "If a being exists that has unlimited power to do anything, there is nothing that is impossible"

It's that simple.

Anything is possible = nothing is impossible. These statements have identical meanings.

Goobieman · Nov 25, 2009

Tucker Case said:
But you do not have limitless power so you must use adjectives properly and not as nouns to make an argument.

We aren't talking about me.

I'm not going to structure my argument like that because to do so I would have to be ignorant of how words are used. "The impossible" is not a thing. It is not an action.

This is just silly. You're picking at inconsequential nits.

My argument is "If a being exists that has unlimited power to do anything, there is nothing that is impossible"
It's that simple.

Works for me.
Not at all sure why you're arguing that there is a limit to unlimited power.

scourge99 · Nov 25, 2009

Tucker Case said:
I don't need to know if it is true for it to actually be true. I can always tell when it can never be considered true, though.

via logic. Which is the very thing in question.

I don't define what a logically sound argument is, the trueness of the premises and the validity of the logic does.

Please prove/validate why logic is true. If you use logic to do so then isn't that assuming that which you are trying to prove; a fallacy within logic.

My understanding of the truth will not alter the soundness of the logic because the truth of the premises is independent of my understanding.

How do you absolutely know this? Induction and deduction? Once again, trace the roots of these and explain why you are absolutely sure of their truth/validity.

An argument that is logically sound is dependent on the whole of reality, not just our understanding of reality

unless we are omniscient then we have an incomplete knowledge of the world. Thus our conclusions may be false due to a false inductions and deductions.

If our understanding is flawed, the logical argument is unaffected.

but logic is based on our understanding and perception otherwise how else would we know it? If we aren't omniscient then how can we claim our conclusions are absolutely correct in regards to reality. (Yes they may be correct in regards to logic but as explained logical truth does not necessitate truth in reality)

presluc · Nov 25, 2009

Lightdemon said:
Where did I say it can easily be harnessed?

Energy is actually an event, not a thing. Matter is a thing. Energy is the movement of matter.

Let me put it this way energy surronds us everyday.

Solid matter today must be made either by man or nature.
They exist side by side,;

For anything to explode there must be cause and effect.

Sorry but energy conforming into a mass and then egniting into a big explosion.WELL?

Tucker Case · Nov 25, 2009

Goobieman said:
We aren't talking about me.

We are talking about the argument you created though.

This is just silly. You're picking at inconsequential nits.

No, it's pointing out a logical fallacy. Equivocation. Your argument is invalid because of that fallacy.

Works for me.
Not at all sure why you're arguing that there is a limit to unlimited power.

I never said that there was a limit to unlimited power. I said that nobody can do that which is impossible, not even a being that has unlimited power , because if something can be done, there is no such thing as that which is impossible.

I was arguing against the statement "An omnipotent being can do that which is impossible"

That's because that statement is false.

EpicDude86 · Nov 25, 2009

Does life on our planet disprove alien equivalents of the Bible?

Lightdemon · Nov 25, 2009

presluc said:
Let me put it this way energy surronds us everyday.

Solid matter today must be made either by man or nature.
They exist side by side,;

For anything to explode there must be cause and effect.

Sorry but energy conforming into a mass and then egniting into a big explosion.WELL?

I don't understand your point....You're saying that something needed to cause the Big Bang to explode. That has nothing to do with your initial question. Your question was about how the Big Bang is possible.

Tucker Case · Nov 25, 2009

scourge99 said:
via logic. Which is the very thing in question.

If a premise does not define it's parameters, it can't be considered to be a true premise.

Please prove/validate why logic is true. If you use logic to do so then isn't that assuming that which you are trying to prove; a fallacy within logic.

It's the rules of logic that dictate it's use. If what I said isn't true, then logic doesn't exist as a field of study.

How do you absolutely know this? Induction and deduction? Once again, trace the roots of these and explain why you are absolutely sure of their truth/validity.

If it isn't true, then logic doesn't exist as a field of study.

unless we are omniscient then we have an incomplete knowledge of the world. Thus our conclusions may be false due to a false inductions and deductions.

If we don't have knowledge of something, then we cannot make a statement about it and consider it true. If we make a statement about all of reality, we are making a statement about something we don't have knowledge of, and therefore we cannot consider it true.

but logic is based on our understanding and perception otherwise how else would we know it? If we aren't omniscient then how can we claim our conclusions are absolutely correct in regards to reality. (Yes they may be correct in regards to logic but as explained logical truth does not necessitate truth in reality)

Our conclusions are correct if and only if they are actually correct. We can say that we think a conclusion is correct but if it is not actually correct, we are wrong.

Goobieman · Nov 25, 2009

Tucker Case said:
I never said that there was a limit to unlimited power. I said that nobody can do that which is impossible, not even a being that has unlimited power , because if something can be done, there is no such thing as that which is impossible.

Is there anything that is impossible to do?

EpicDude86 · Nov 25, 2009

Goobieman said:
Is there anything that is impossible to do?

Get through the DMV in less than an hour?

presluc · Nov 25, 2009

Tucker Case said:
But you do not have limitless power so you must use adjectives properly and not as nouns to make an argument.

I'm not going to structure my argument like that because to do so I would have to be ignorant of how words are used. "The impossible" is not a thing. It is not an action.

My argument is "If a being exists that has unlimited power to do anything, there is nothing that is impossible"

It's that simple.

Anything is possible = nothing is impossible. These statements have identical meanings.

I think this best statement is "Anything is possible" and leave it like that.
After all mankind throughout history has been proven wrong more than once when they said a certain thing was "impossible".

Lightdemon · Nov 25, 2009

Tucker Case said:
It's nonsense because the word impossible is not a noun.

Tucker Case said:
Anything is possible = nothing is impossible. These statements have identical meanings.

I think I getcha now, so let's try this again:

If God can do anything, nothing is impossible. If nothing is impossible, then is there such a thing as the illogical?

Goobieman · Nov 25, 2009

EpicDude86 said:
Get through the DMV in less than an hour?

I'm guessing it would be pretty easy for someone with unlimited power to do so.

Althought, "easy" denotes a degree of taxation of one's ability. If you have unlimted ability, then nothing is difficult; if nothing is difficult, then nothing is easy.

So, for those with unlimited power, nothing is easy.

presluc · Nov 25, 2009

Lightdemon said:
I don't understand your point....You're saying that something needed to cause the Big Bang to explode. That has nothing to do with your initial question. Your question was about how the Big Bang is possible.

My point is quite simple all things are possible including the Big Bang Theory or the existance of God.

It only depends on one's beleifs nothing more.

As far as the thought of impossibilities?

As I have said before when mankind knows for sure that everything that is possible has been done and only impossible things remain.

Then we might as well put evolution on hold there would be nothing left for us to evolve to.this is as good as it gets.

I don't know about you but I can't accept that.

EpicDude86 · Nov 25, 2009

Goobieman said:
I'm guessing it would be pretty easy for someone with unlimited power to do so.

Althought, "easy" denotes a degree of taxation of one's ability. If you have unlimted ability, then nothing is difficult; if nothing is difficult, then nothing is easy.

So, for those with unlimited power, nothing is easy.

God would still get out of the DMV in 65 minutes.

Goobieman · Nov 25, 2009

EpicDude86 said:
God would still get out of the DMV in 65 minutes.

God has a car. A Plymouth.

Lightdemon · Nov 25, 2009

presluc said:
My point is quite simple all things are possible including the Big Bang Theory or the existance of God.

It only depends on one's beleifs nothing more.

As far as the thought of impossibilities?

As I have said before when mankind knows for sure that everything that is possible has been done and only impossible things remain.

Then we might as well put evolution on hold there would be nothing left for us to evolve to.this is as good as it gets.

I don't know about you but I can't accept that.

You realize you contradict yourself, don't you?

presluc said:
Well I have a question.

If in fact logic plays a key role on anything possible then how come the Big Bang therory is considered possible?

You started off saying that the Big Bang isn't possible, yet in the end you say everything is possible.

Seriously...Do you even realize this?

EpicDude86 · Nov 25, 2009

Goobieman said:
God has a car. A Plymouth.

I have it on very good authority that God drives a pea soup green 74 Duster.

presluc · Nov 25, 2009

Lightdemon said:
You realize you contradict yourself, don't you?

You started off saying that the Big Bang isn't possible, yet in the end you say everything is possible.

Seriously...Do you even realize this?

Not all people think the same I'm sure there's a few on this post that might beleive the existence of God is not possible.
That is their beleif my beleif God does exist
I do not beleive the bg bang theory happend without help
I'm sure there are some on this thread that do
That is their beleif not mine.
Neither can be accuratly proven.
Yet both are beleived by a lot of people.

Which brings back to my point anything is possible.

Lightdemon · Nov 25, 2009

presluc said:
Not all people think the same I'm sure there's a few on this post that might beleive the existence of God is not possible.
That is their beleif my beleif God does exist
I do not beleive the bg bang theory happend without help
I'm sure there are some on this thread that do
That is their beleif not mine.
Neither can be accuratly proven.
Yet both are beleived by a lot of people.

Which brings back to my point anything is possible.

Oh, I see. When you said the Big Bang wasn't possible, you meant it wasn't possible without help.

I don't want to sound mean, but I find myself having a hard time trying to understand your posts because you keep going off on tangents instead of just clarifying your points.

We could have avoided the whole matter and energy thing, if you just came out and said what you really meant...

scourge99 · Nov 25, 2009

presluc said:
Systeme of reasoning "common sense"?

You cherry picked two completely different sections of my post, rammed them together and you wonder why you are confused?

Logic has multiple definitions. Wiki logic. Someone please enlighten Prelesuc, I can't do a thorough explanation on my phone.

Are you telling me war , destruction attempted genocide muder over a differance of thought , this is logical.

Jesus christ on a bicycle! It seems you are using the word "logical" to mean "is morally acceptable to me".
That is, you are discussing morality, not formal logic.

That in this world the whole human race is just a syteme of reasoning that is logical?

That sounds a bit close to the old reteric by organized religion.
"We know what is right we know what is wrong"
Think like us talk like us walk like us and you will be right if not you are wrong.

When we resolve your confusion over your use of the word "logic" and "logical" then I will address the rest of this post if you wish me to.

Does life on other planets disprove the BIble

See OP

Yes, because...

No, because...

Other

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