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Did you vote in Nov 2009 elections?

Did you vote in Nov 2009 US elections?

  • Voted absentee ballot

    Votes: 4 15.4%

  • Voted early voting

    Votes: 1 3.8%

  • Voted on election day at the polls

    Votes: 8 30.8%

  • Skipped b/c lack of knowledge of candidates/issues

    Votes: 3 11.5%

  • Skipped b/c I didn't care

    Votes: 5 19.2%

  • Meant to vote and missed it

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • I'm not eligible to vote in US elections

    Votes: 5 19.2%
  • Total voters
    26
Sir Loin said:
I've found some I agree with on some issues, but as I've grown older I realize that there will never be *one* that is a perfect match. I also must sadly state that every election I have voted in came down to a matter of the 'lesser of two evils' for me. Most people I know who vote, regardless of ideology, feel the same way.:(
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I'll be voting for the lesser of two evils in 2012, but that's only because Obama is absolutely awful.

Other than that I cannot support any candidate who represents a continuation of a most detestable status quo.
 
Agnapostate said:
The standard political issues that are discussed on the board, such as economic issues. I, as with most people on this board, have no substantive voice. A vote that doesn't matter one way or the other and is primarily useful for the exercise you get walking to the polling station hardly constitutes a "voice" of any sort.
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I think you speak only for yourself when you state that you have no substantive voice. By your own admission you don't vote and so you have eliminated your only means of being one of those who is "counted" or "counts" in a democratic sense. Rationalize it however you wish, you are by choice only white noise.:cool:
 
Sir Loin said:
I think you speak only for yourself when you state that you have no substantive voice. By your own admission you don't vote and so you have eliminated your only means of being one of those who is "counted" or "counts" in a democratic sense. Rationalize it however you wish, you are by choice only white noise.:cool:
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At least white noise constitutes static. You contribute one minuscule number among millions of numbers that has no effect on the ultimate result, not that the elected candidate acts strictly according to the will of the electorate anyway. :shrug:
 
Agnapostate said:
At least white noise constitutes static. You contribute one minuscule number among millions of numbers that has no effect on the ultimate result, not that the elected candidate acts strictly according to the will of the electorate anyway. :shrug:
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So you share a commonality with some who participate in political debate forums, but NOT the political process? Kinda a self defeating political philosophy if ever I've seen one. One is kinetic and one is static. Guess which I am and you are?
 
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Sir Loin said:
So you share a commonality with some who participate in political debate forums, but NOT the political process? Kinda a self defeating political philosophy if ever I've seen one. One is kinetic and one is static. Or one is active and one ain't? Guess which I am and you are?
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He's right when he points out that the odds that your vote will ever make the difference in any election more important than dogcatcher are roughly akin to the odds of being struck by lightening while having sex with Fran Drescher. In terms of political theory, voting is entirely irrational unless you assign some significant value to the feeling of civic pride that you enjoy.
 
Sir Loin said:
So you share a commonality with some who participate in political debate forums, but NOT the political process? Kinda a self defeating political philosophy if ever I've seen one. One is kinetic and one is static. Or one is active and one ain't? Guess which I am and you are?
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Merely a matter of helping provide political development to others through my commentary as well as refine my own perspective if I ever gained more significant public status, so that I'd be able to defend my own views more skillfully. Contributing a single number to a vote count that includes millions is absolutely useless, however.
 
RightinNYC said:
He's right when he points out that the odds that your vote will ever make the difference in any election more important than dogcatcher are roughly akin to the odds of being struck by lightening while having sex with Fran Drescher. In terms of political theory, voting is entirely irrational unless you assign some significant value to the feeling of civic pride that you enjoy.
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I disagree and frankly find your position to be irrational. But then I am never truly shocked at the length and contortions those who oppose "voting" go to about "voice" and counting. Also, actual living human beings (some of my family) have died to protect and make possible my (and your) right to vote. You throw yours away if you wish, I won't. Nor will I embrace your lithe dismissal of the same or the shortsightedness inherent in it.

Agnapostate said:
Merely a matter of helping provide political development to others through my commentary as well as refine my own perspective if I ever gained more significant public status, so that I'd be able to defend my own views more skillfully. Contributing a single number to a vote count that includes millions is absolutely useless, however.
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So why bother with democracy then, or what exactly is the Jedi wisdom you seek to impart here?

So the lesson is relegate your political voice to internet forums? Do tell, do elaborate either of you. I'm game.
 
Sir Loin said:
So why bother with democracy then, or what exactly is the Jedi wisdom you seek to impart here?

So the lesson is relegate your political voice to internet forums? Do tell, do elaborate either of you. I'm game.
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Why bother with republicanism, rather, since it is that form of indirect, representative "democracy" that has created a detachment between the political class and the general population? When it comes to influence on political change, I'd advocate direct action such as strikes, walkouts, protests, and civil disobedience, with electoral participation being largely ineffective and therefore useless.
 
Sir Loin said:
I disagree and frankly find your position to be irrational. But then I am never truly shocked at the length and contortions those who oppose "voting" go to about "voice" and counting. Also, actual living human beings (some of my family) have died to protect and make possible my (and your) right to vote. You throw yours away if you wish, I won't. Nor will I embrace your lithe dismissal of the same or the shortsightedness inherent in it.
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I don't "oppose" voting, as I've voted in every election that I've been eligible for. However, I do so with full knowledge that my vote will mean nothing and that I'm doing it for reasons other than a desire for my voice to be heard. Statistically speaking, everything in my above statement is 100% true. If you still decide to vote, you're either acting irrationally or you place a value on voting that surpasses the costs of voting, much like I do. Based on your statement, it sounds like you value voting highly enough to make it rational for you.
 
Agnapostate said:
Why bother with republicanism, rather, since it is that form of indirect, representative "democracy" that has created a detachment between the political class and the general population? When it comes to influence on political change, I'd advocate direct action such as strikes, walkouts, protests, and civil disobedience, with electoral participation being largely ineffective and therefore useless.
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So tell me again, how your voice, counts in any measurable way, outside of esoteric internet philosophical arguments, in the *real world* if you can. And mine does not? You will of course pardon me from noting the mathematical issues with your stance. Or how far down this rabbit hole are you willing to go?
 
Sir Loin said:
So tell me again, how your voice, counts in any measurable way, outside of esoteric internet philosophical arguments, in the *real world* if you can. And mine does not? You will of course pardon me from noting the mathematical issues with your stance. Or how far down this rabbit hole are you willing to go?
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For one thing, through political commentary outside of the Internet, though I'm not Limbaugh'ing it up by any means. For another thing, you're merely repeating previously rebutted assertions at this point. :shrug:
 
RightinNYC said:
I don't "oppose" voting, as I've voted in every election that I've been eligible for. However, I do so with full knowledge that my vote will mean nothing and that I'm doing it for reasons other than a desire for my voice to be heard. Statistically speaking, everything in my above statement is 100% true. If you still decide to vote, you're either acting irrationally or you place a value on voting that surpasses the costs of voting, much like I do. Based on your statement, it sounds like you value voting highly enough to make it rational for you.
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I do so knowing that my vote actually contributes to a flawed system, which in all of those I have encountered in my years and travels, I'd rather live under than any other. And allow me to state that it is only on the internet that one can find people so ready to dismiss the basic precepts that so many have died and suffered to protect, so disposable and owing to political philosophy.
 
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Agnapostate said:
For one thing, through political commentary outside of the Internet, though I'm not Limbaugh'ing it up by any means. For another thing, you're merely repeating previously rebutted assertions at this point. :shrug:
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Deflecting and ignoring time eh?
 
Sir Loin said:
I do so knowing that my vote actually contributes to a flawed system, which in all of those I have encountered in my years and travels, I'd rather live under than any other.
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So like I said, it sounds like you place a high value on the act of voting, which makes it rational for you. You should understand that that doesn't apply to everyone.

And allow me to state that it is only on the internet and that one can find people so ready to dismiss the basic precepts that so many have died and suffered to protect, so disposable and owing to politcal philosophy. doh
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On the internet or in any basic political theory class. Again, what I'm saying is in no way controversial if you understand my point.
 
RightinNYC said:
So like I said, it sounds like you place a high value on the act of voting, which makes it rational for you. You should understand that that doesn't apply to everyone.



On the internet or in any basic political theory class.
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Most people in a democracy place a "high value" on voting. Big gold star to you on deducing that sir. Now if you can explain how your position is rational and mine irrational, minus the cerebral hookus pokus, I'm game. Seriously speaking, your attempt to state that voting is a waste of time is not persuading me that such is the case and that I have no point. Here on the internet or in the real world. ;)
 
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Agnapostate said:
No. You haven't said anything new. After I noted that your vote had absolutely no influence one way or the other, you had no response to this. :shrug:
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Actually I had a response to it, it was posted in English and you actually bothered to post a repsonce to it. But tell me, if your stance somehow in your mind is *something new* and if so, do tell............
 
Sir Loin said:
Most people in a democracy place a "high value" on voting. Big gold star to you on deducing that sir.
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Which makes voting rational for them. However, you seem to be ignoring the fact that this isn't because voting is intrinsically valuable, but is because individuals place their own value on it.

Now if you can explain how your position is rational and mine irrational, minus the cerebral hookus pokus, I'm game. Seriously speaking, your attempt to state that voting is a waste of time is not persuading me that such is the case and that I have no point. Here on the internet or in the real world. ;)
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Again, if you think that I'm saying that voting is a waste of time, you're missing my point. The logic of my position is pretty simple.

(Value to you of your preferred candidate winning) * (probability of your vote being the one vote to cause your candidate to win) + (value you place on the act of voting) + (X) = (Cost of voting)

Because the probability of your vote being the one vote to cause your candidate to win is effectively zero, the equation can be simplified as:

(Value you place on the act of voting) + (X) = (Cost of voting)

If X is negative after filling in the other variables, then voting is rational for you. That is not the case for everyone.
 
RightinNYC said:
Which makes voting rational for them. However, you seem to be ignoring the fact that this isn't because voting is intrinsically valuable, but is because individuals place their own value on it.



Again, if you think that I'm saying that voting is a waste of time, you're missing my point. The logic of my position is pretty simple.

(Value to you of your preferred candidate winning) * (probability of your vote being the one vote to cause your candidate to win) + (value you place on the act of voting) + (X) = (Cost of voting)

Because the probability of your vote being the one vote to cause your candidate to win is effectively zero, the equation can be simplified as:

(Value you place on the act of voting) + (X) = (Cost of voting)

If X is negative after filling in the other variables, then voting is rational for you. That is not the case for everyone.
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Let us just cut to brass tacks eh? I have a vote, it is counted. Regardless the argument given it is counted, those who do not are not counted. Insert rationalized statements about rationalized statements ad ifinitum and those who don't vote are still not counted. Congrats all the way around for the reasons you are not counted and to those of you who are counted who think being counted ain't all that. Who cares if you did not vote? You count even less than those you mock for counting do. At least *ONE* who mocks the value of the count still participates in it! His voice actaully counts, whereas YOURS does not, in any tangible way, except of course.....the internet. :2wave:
 
Sir Loin said:
Let us just cut to brass tacks eh? I have a vote, it is counted. Regardless the argument given it is counted, those who do not are not counted. Insert rationalized statements about rationalized statements ad ifinitum and those who don't vote are still not counted. Congrats all the way around for the reasons you are not counted and to those of you who are counted who think being counted ain't all that. Who cares if you did not vote?
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I'm not saying that your vote isn't counted, I'm saying that it's meaningless in terms of the outcome of the election. This is not my opinion, this is a mathematical fact. The only way your vote is valuable is if you place a personal value on the act of voting.

You count even less than those you mock for counting do. At least *ONE* who mocks the value of the count still participates in it!
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For the third time, I vote in every single election. I don't know why you keep on accusing me of not voting.

His voice actaully counts, whereas YOURS does not, in any tangible way, except of course.....the internet. :2wave:
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If you think that voting is the most effective way to make your voice heard, you're sorely mistaken. In terms of actual impact on society/policy, it's easily the least effective method that I can think of.
 
Sir Loin said:
Let us just cut to brass tacks eh? I have a vote, it is counted. Regardless the argument given it is counted, those who do not are not counted.
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How many elections has your vote changed the outcome?

Sir Loin said:
Who cares if you did not vote? You count even less than those you mock for counting do.
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Not very much less. In fact, such a negligible amount that for all intents and purposes your vote counts the same as someone who didn't cast a vote.

Sir Loin said:
At least *ONE* who mocks the value of the count still participates in it! His voice actaully counts, whereas YOURS does not, in any tangible way, except of course.....the internet. :2wave:
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I would argue that if one's sole goal is to influence public policy (i.e. ignoring the warm and fuzzy feeling from voting), posting on DebatePolitics is a much better use of one's time than voting.
 
RightinNYC said:
I'm not saying that your vote isn't counted, I'm saying that it's meaningless in terms of the outcome of the election. This is not my opinion, this is a mathematical fact. The only way your vote is valuable is if you place a personal value on the act of voting.
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Saying my vote is meaningless is just plain dumb and owing to dogma IMO. I voted in the 2009 election and on many issues both local and national. You do know there was more on the docket in 2009 issue wise and chronologically than the POTUS race? You will of course demonstrate for my admittedly ignorant self, all that you claim won't you? As I have said, I am game.

RightinNYC said:
For the third time, I vote in every single election. I don't know why you keep on accusing me of not voting.
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I was not speaking to you there and thought the forum norms would have made this obvious.

RightinNYC said:
If you think that voting is the most effective way to make your voice heard, you're sorely mistaken. In terms of actual impact on society/policy, it's easily the least effective method that I can think of.
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Never said any of the above, just responding to your arguments with my comments.:confused:
 
Sir Loin said:
Saying my vote is meaningless is just plain dumb and owing to dogma IMO. I voted in the 2009 election and on many issues both local and national. You do know there was more on the docket in 2009 issue wise and chronologically than the POTUS race? You will of course demonstrate for my admittedly ignorant self, all that you claim won't you? As I have said, I am game.
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When the results come in tomorrow night, be sure to keep track of how many of those elections were decided by your vote.
 
Kandahar said:
How many elections has your vote changed the outcome?
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Utterly irrelevant, unless you care to perform an ad hoc soliloquy?
Kandahar said:
Not very much less. In fact, such a negligible amount that for all intents and purposes your vote counts the same as someone who didn't cast a vote.
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So yet, somehow and despite your best intentions, somehow above nothing? Well then I certainly see the pay off in the passionate arguments put forth so far. Chuckle.

Kandahar said:
I would argue that if one's sole goal is to influence public policy (i.e. ignoring the warm and fuzzy feeling from voting), posting on DebatePolitics is a much better use of one's time than voting.
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Of course you would. Down is up and up is down. I know.;)
 
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