Should the lost pilots have their licenses revoked?

apdst · Oct 28, 2009

They should never be allowed to set foot in the cockpit of an aircraft again.

apdst · Oct 28, 2009

Blackdog said:
I don't get it they made a mistake, a fairly minor one. It was also the first time. Suspension should be enough. Why would you want to completely take away the lively hood and/or careers of these men? Not to mention they are most likely veterans.

A little less knee jerk, and a lot more common sense.

The reason that I think this is such a big deal, is that had they realized what was going on a little later, they could have run out of fuel and crash. Invaded another aircraft's airpsace and crashed. Been a suspected hi-jack and shot down.

I feel there's no place in the pilot world, commercial, private, whatever, for someone who is going to detach themselves from what they're doing for that long.

Black Dog · Oct 28, 2009

apdst said:
The reason that I think this is such a big deal, is that had they realized what was going on a little later, they could have run out of fuel and crash. Invaded another aircraft's airpsace and crashed. Been a suspected hi-jack and shot down.

I feel there's no place in the pilot world, commercial, private, whatever, for someone who is going to detach themselves from what they're doing for that long.

It was an accident. No one was hurt. Don't punish people for what could have happened. That is exactly what is going on here.

Typical over reaction.

No wonder this country is so ****ed up.

No forgiveness, no understanding that people can make mistakes. You mite as well support zero tolerance laws.

jamesrage · Oct 28, 2009

Blackdog said:
I don't get it they made a mistake, a fairly minor one. It was also the first time. Suspension should be enough. Why would you want to completely take away the lively hood and/or careers of these men? Not to mention they are most likely veterans.

A little less knee jerk, and a lot more common sense.

It would be different if they worked at a job that didn't physically involve the lives of others in their hands. Its no different than a soldier who falls asleep on guard duty in a war zone, firefighters who turn their phones and alarms off, a doctor who is call that turns his phone off or goes out drinking or police who sit in their highway patrol car in a parking lot playing video games instead of patrolling the highway looking for speeders and other people who endanger other motorist. Something may not happen the first time or even a dozen times later, but something bad shouldn't have to happen first before something gets done. I am sure that by making an example out of anyone who does this will ensure that no pilot dares to sleep on the job.

jamesrage · Oct 28, 2009

Blackdog said:
It was an accident. No one was hurt. Don't punish people for what could have happened. That is exactly what is going on here.

Typical over reaction.

No wonder this country is so ****ed up.

No forgiveness, no understanding that people can make mistakes. You mite as well support zero tolerance laws.

When it comes to something like this there should be zero tolerance and even criminal charges. You do not wait until a drunk driver gets into a accident before arresting him for DUI just because he hasn't hit anyone yet.

apdst · Oct 28, 2009

Blackdog said:
It was an accident. No one was hurt. Don't punish people for what could have happened. That is exactly what is going on here.

Typical over reaction.

No wonder this country is so ****ed up.

No forgiveness, no understanding that people can make mistakes. You mite as well support zero tolerance laws.

If they had flown to the wrong city, that would be a mistake. Some mistakes get a second chance, some don't. Overflying the airport because they were playing with their laptops is one of the ones that don't. Accidents don't just happen. They're caused.

Black Dog · Oct 28, 2009

jamesrage said:
When it comes to something like this there should be zero tolerance and even criminal charges. You do not wait until a drunk driver gets into a accident before arresting him for DUI just because he hasn't hit anyone yet.

We also don't arrest people for speeding, distracted driving or running a stop sign. Nor do we suspend the license on a first offense.

This was not a case of drunk driving and it is not in anyway comparable as the pilots were not physically impaired at all. They were simply bored distracted.

Black Dog · Oct 28, 2009

apdst said:
If they had flown to the wrong city, that would be a mistake.

Flying to the wrong city suggests they have no idea what they are doing. Over shooting the city says distracted.

apdst said:
Some mistakes get a second chance, some don't. Overflying the airport because they were playing with their laptops is one of the ones that don't. Accidents don't just happen. They're caused.

Which would you rather them lose a license for?

A. Not knowing what they were doing?

B. Distracted?

PS No accident happend here. No one was hurt etc.

Cephus · Oct 28, 2009

Kandahar said:
Drunk driving isn't uncommon either, but if you get caught, you can and should get in trouble for it. These guys not only got caught, but they overshot the airport by 150 miles.

You have to understand the realities of flying commercial airlines. The plane flies itself. The *ONLY* responsibility of the pilots is monitoring fuel levels and weather, something that takes about 10% of their onboard time. With modern aeronautic equipment, the pilot has to take off and sit in the cockpit, little more. The plane will even land itself and in bad weather, the pilots are required by law to take a completely hands-off approach to letting the plane fly itself.

What happened was a comedy of errors. Air traffic asked them to change radio frequencies, then dropped the ball entirely because they never responded and air traffic is required by FAA policy to continue to make the request until they respond. They did not.

Don't get me wrong, I fault the pilots but you act like flying a plane is like driving a car and it's nothing of the sort.

Black Dog · Oct 28, 2009

jamesrage said:
When it comes to something like this there should be zero tolerance and even criminal charges. You do not wait until a drunk driver gets into a accident before arresting him for DUI just because he hasn't hit anyone yet.

Criminal charges? That is rich. No one was hurt, no one was in any danger at any time. They overshot the city by being distracted. Not like that has not happened to anyone before, being distracted I mean.

Again anyone who supports zero tolerance for anything instead of accepting responsibility on a case by case basis is a fool.

apdst · Oct 28, 2009

Blackdog said:
Flying to the wrong city suggests they have no idea what they are doing. Over shooting the city says distracted.

Which would you rather them lose a license for?

A. Not knowing what they were doing?

B. Distracted?

PS No accident happend here. No one was hurt etc.

You're right, that would be a case of, "not knowing what they're doing". I think they should lose their license for that, too.

Maybe my fear of flying makes me inflexible, but I don't think these two dudes have any business flying an aircraft, muchless a passenger aircraft.

jamesrage · Oct 28, 2009

Blackdog said:
We also don't arrest people for speeding, distracted driving or running a stop sign. Nor do we suspend the license on a first offense.

These are things that happen all the time and a ticket is considered an appropriate punishment. However it is not a pilot who has the lives a 50-100 plus people in the lives of his hands and possibly the area he may crass into.

This was not a case of drunk driving and it is not in anyway comparable as the pilots were not physically impaired at all. They were simply bored distracted.

If the pilot is asleep then he is impaired. IF the Pilot is playing Nerd Quest or "Ain't never gonna see any ***** Quest" on his laptop then he is impaired.

Black Dog · Oct 28, 2009

jamesrage said:
These are things that happen all the time and a ticket is considered an appropriate punishment. However it is not a pilot who has the lives a 50-100 plus people in the lives of his hands and possibly the area he may crass into.

You made the comparison. I just took it to it's logical conclusion in that it was irrelevant.

jamesrage said:
If the pilot is asleep then he is impaired. IF the Pilot is playing Nerd Quest or "Ain't never gonna see any ***** Quest" on his laptop then he is impaired.

They were discussing a new company policy, not playing games. :roll:

In the end it makes no difference my earlier statement stands as true.

The punishment does not fit the offense. And it is a typical over reaction and these two pilots are now just another statistic.

Thanks.

Black Dog · Oct 28, 2009

apdst said:
You're right, that would be a case of, "not knowing what they're doing". I think they should lose their license for that, too.

Maybe my fear of flying makes me inflexible, but I don't think these two dudes have any business flying an aircraft, muchless a passenger aircraft.

The fear of flying I can understand.

I would never fault anyone for that.

So I can understand your reaction.

Jerry · Oct 28, 2009

Blackdog said:
They were discussing a new company policy, not playing games.

Where did you hear that?

Black Dog · Oct 28, 2009

Jerry said:
Where did you hear that?

I read the story?

"First Officer Richard Cole and Captain Timothy Cheney said they were engrossed in discussing a new company policy."

The way people are responding, I thought everyone did?

jamesrage · Oct 28, 2009

Blackdog said:
Criminal charges? That is rich. No one was hurt, no one was in any danger at any time.

So a drunk shouldn't face any criminal charges as long as he has not ran anyone over or got into a accident?

They overshot the city by being distracted. Not like that has not happened to anyone before, being distracted I mean.

They were asleep. And even if they were playing "Ain't ever gonna see any ***** Quest" they were obviously to impaired to pay attention.

Again anyone who supports zero tolerance for anything instead of accepting responsibility on a case by case basis is a fool.

You wouldn't want your child's bus driver texting or chatting on a cellphone while driving would you? Why would you want pilots ****ing off or sleeping while they are supposed to watch what they are doing when the have the lives of 50-100 plus people in their hands?

jamesrage · Oct 28, 2009

Blackdog said:
I read the story?

"First Officer Richard Cole and Captain Timothy Cheney said they were engrossed in discussing a new company policy."

The way people are responding, I thought everyone did?

Do you really believe that? That sounds like an excuse an idiotic teenager would come up with.

Jerry · Oct 28, 2009

Blackdog said:
I read the story?

"First Officer Richard Cole and Captain Timothy Cheney said they were engrossed in discussing a new company policy."

The way people are responding, I thought everyone did?

Oh I thought you had proof or something.

There's a shroud of secrecy around what exactly they were doing. First the fell asleep, then they were fighting, then they weren't fighting...the excuse keeps changing.

"We were looking at company policy" sounds like "nothing mom, sally and I were in my room reading the bible, we closed the door so we could focus on the Lord's word"....

Come on guys, admit it, you were checking out YouPorn and having sex :lol:

Jerry · Oct 28, 2009

jamesrage said:
Do you really believe that? That sounds like an excuse an idiotic teenager would come up with.

I want to see an investigator enforce a search warrant and check out that laptop's bouser history.

Black Dog · Oct 28, 2009

jamesrage said:
So a drunk shouldn't face any criminal charges as long as he has not ran anyone over or got into a accident?

What does being physically impaired (illegal) have to do with anything? :roll:

jamesrage said:
They were asleep. And even if they were playing "Ain't ever gonna see any ***** Quest" they were obviously to impaired to pay attention.

Please post some evidence to support this claim they were asleep?

They were not impaired in any way, that is absolutely not true. They were however distracted by the conversation. Not like that has ever happened to anyone before.

jamesrage said:
You wouldn't want your child's bus driver texting or chatting on a cellphone while driving would you?

Fallacy argument.

#1 Buses don't fly on auto pilot.
#2 You have a pilot & co-pilot on a plane, not a bus.

jamesrage said:
Why would you want pilots ****ing off or sleeping while they are supposed to watch what they are doing when the have the lives of 50-100 plus people in their hands?

They were not "****ing off" and they were not asleep. You obviously know very little about what goes on in a modern commercial aircraft cockpit. The pilot is almost not needed anymore. After takeoff the rout is set and the computer flies the plane until they are coming in close to the destination.

Black Dog · Oct 28, 2009

Jerry said:
Oh I thought you had proof or something.

There's a shroud of secrecy around what exactly they were doing. First the fell asleep, then they were fighting, then they weren't fighting...the excuse keeps changing.

"We were looking at company policy" sounds like "nothing mom, sally and I were in my room reading the bible, we closed the door so we could focus on the Lord's word"....

Come on guys, admit it, you were checking out YouPorn and having sex :lol:

It is better proof than you have. So far you have proof of what? Nothing.

I have the pilots own story's, true or not will remain to be seen.

Until then you again have nothing.

jamesrage · Oct 28, 2009

Blackdog said:
What does being physically impaired (illegal) have to do with anything? :roll:

You are arguing no harm no foul right?

Please post some evidence to support this claim they were asleep?

Ignored messages, Off course about a hundred fifty miles a flight,flight attendant had to notify them by intercom.

Flight attendant alerted pilots who missed airport by 150 miles - Times Online
Report: Stray jet's pilots were on laptops - CNN.com

They were not impaired in any way, that is absolutely not true.

If they were not impaired then we wouldn't be having this discussion because they wouldn't have flew 150 miles past where they were supposed to land.

Fallacy argument.

#1 Buses don't fly on auto pilot.

Irrelevant.Besides the autopilot didn't land the plane for them.

#2 You have a pilot & co-pilot on a plane, not a bus.

Both of whom were either asleep of ****ing off but either way they were not doing their job and they were impaired from doing their job.

They were not "****ing off" and they were not asleep. You obviously know very little about what goes on in a modern commercial aircraft cockpit. The pilot is almost not needed anymore. After takeoff the rout is set and the computer flies the plane until they are coming in close to the destination.

Obviously they were ****ing off or sleeping because they went a 150 miles past where they were supposed to land and messages by dispatchers were ignored.

Black Dog · Oct 28, 2009

jamesrage said:
You are arguing no harm no foul right?

No. I am arguing comparing this to a drunken driver is nothing but a bad fallacy argument.

jamesrage said:
Ignored messages, Off course about a hundred fifty miles a flight,flight attendant had to notify them by intercom.

Flight attendant alerted pilots who missed airport by 150 miles - Times Online

And because she alerted them this somehow proves they are asleep, how? Keep reaching man.

jamesrage said:
Report: Stray jet's pilots were on laptops - CNN.com

You did not read the whole thing did you?

"Each pilot accessed and used his personal laptop computer while they discussed the airline crew flight scheduling procedure,"

"The first officer, who was more familiar with the procedure, was providing instruction to the captain."Neither pilot said he was aware of where the plane was until a flight attendant called the cockpit about five minutes before the plane was to have landed and asked their estimated time of arrival, the report said.

Nothing about sleeping here either.

jamesrage said:
If they were not impaired then we wouldn't be having this discussion because they wouldn't have flew 150 miles past where they were supposed to land.

From your own article...

"After landing at Minneapolis-St. Paul, both voluntarily underwent alcohol breath tests, which proved negative, the report said."

No evidence exists that they were impaired in anyway.

jamesrage said:
Irrelevant.Besides the autopilot didn't land the plane for them.

Irrelevant???? OK. :roll:

jamesrage said:
Both of whom were either asleep of ****ing off but either way they were not doing their job and they were impaired from doing their job.

Nothing of the sort has been shown even according to your own article. You are jumping to conclusions based on hyped speculation, period.

So far you have shown nothing to back up your accusations at all.

jamesrage said:
Obviously they were ****ing off or sleeping because they went a 150 miles past where they were supposed to land and messages by dispatchers were ignored.

All that means at this point is they were not paying attention, nothing more.

Partisan · Oct 28, 2009

They only had their flight status yanked, it's up to the airline to fire them....
Justifyable, IMO, derelection of duty.....
They should be flogged......
What happens when you are caught off watch on a naval or commercial vessel?......
They are not telling the truth about what happened....
The carrier gave everyone a $500 dollar refund, that should take care of any claims for any 'lost time', 'pain & suffering', etc. nonsense...

Should the lost pilots have their licenses revoked?

What should happen to the lost pilots?

They are too irresponsible to get nothing less than permanent ban from commercial flying

Since it's a first offense they should only get a suspension

They should get a warning

Why all the fuss? Everyone has lapses from time to time

I'd hire them if I had an airline

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