• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Do Rational Humans Desire to Live Free?

Do Rational Humans Desire to Live Free?


  • Total voters
    28

Ethereal

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 17, 2005
Messages
8,211
Reaction score
4,179
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Generally speaking, rational human beings desire to live free.

Yes or no?
 
Yes with a slight no.

We desire to make our own choices but humans in general gravitate towards living in groups and as a result enforce rules agreed upon by the group.

So yes we desire to live free but at the same time restrain ourselves by laws we choose to enforce for societal order.
 
Yes with a slight no.

We desire to make our own choices but humans in general gravitate towards living in groups and as a result enforce rules agreed upon by the group.

So yes we desire to live free but at the same time restrain ourselves by laws we choose to enforce for societal order.

Freedom doesn't mean anarchy. Submitting to just laws which secure liberty is not a form of sacrificing liberty, indeed, it’s the exact opposite.
 
Yes. I think most rational folk would want to live free. Some form of society where you have laws and a makeup to protect the rights of the individual. Allowing open, free market capitalism. All these things are, I believe, naturally concluded from rationale.
 
Entirely dependent on the used definition of freedom and the relation of the word in the spoken context.

I voted yes, since I am willing to assume that you are speaking about the freedom of choice, and not, say, the freedom of press or freedom of speech.
 
Freedom doesn't mean anarchy. Submitting to just laws which secure liberty is not a form of sacrificing liberty, indeed, it’s the exact opposite.

For absolute freedom anarchy is a must, though you also get chaos along with this. Laws and rules by definition suppress freedom.

I'm not an advocate of anarchy. I believe structure and laws need to be in place to maintain order. Suppressing bits of freedom for order is a must to avoid anarchy and chaos.
 
Generally speaking, rational human beings desire to live free.

Yes or no?

I'm not so sure that's a universal truth. I think there's a bit of ethnocentrism in believing that ALL humans feel the same most Americans do.
 
I'm not so sure that's a universal truth. I think there's a bit of ethnocentrism in believing that ALL humans feel the same most Americans do.

So, there are people who desire to live in a cage?

:confused:
 
So, there are people who desire to live in a cage?

:confused:

I wouldn't phrase it quite like that, but most of the world's population views "freedom" in very different terms than European-based cultures do, and it may not be a high priority. For example, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela are very happy nations.


World_happiness.png

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_with_Life_Index[/ame]
 
Last edited:
I wouldn't phrase it quite like that, but most of the world's population views "freedom" in very different terms than European-based cultures do, and it may not be a high priority. For example, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela are among the happiest nations in the world.

Satisfaction with Life Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Freedom is the ability to make choices in accordance with our will; what rational human being does not possess this desire at their core, even if they content themselves with the status quo?
 
I'm not so sure. We think so because most of us have grown up with it, in the same way that those Venezuelans are probably only happy because Mr. Chavez tells them they should be happy.
 
Last edited:
I would agree with that it is rational to want to live free. Where the trouble starts, is when responsibility for that freedom is shunned.
 
I would agree with that it is rational to want to live free.

I disagree. I think it is human to want to live free. Want for freedom is as rational as love or anger or any other emotion- not rational at all. That doesn't make it a bad thing, mind.

When you try to rationalize freedom, as with any other emotion, people come to different conclusions, whereas when we rely on emotions we more or less come to the same conclusion- that freedom (although everyone defines it differently) is a good thing. Thus people who rely on reason are less likely to desire freedom. At least that is what I think.
 
I wouldn't phrase it quite like that, but most of the world's population views "freedom" in very different terms than European-based cultures do, and it may not be a high priority. For example, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela are very happy nations.


World_happiness.png

Satisfaction with Life Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I somehow doubt that the women of Saudi Arabia are particularly happy. Or the homosexuals, for that matter.

It is very difficult to measure happiness, especially with all the countries in the world whose data are questionable.
 
Freedom doesn't mean anarchy. Submitting to just laws which secure liberty is not a form of sacrificing liberty, indeed, it’s the exact opposite.

In that case, I don't really get what you're asking.
Most people willing to submit to laws also don't mind receiving the occasional kickback. Is that where this is going?
Following laws indiscriminately like a bunch of sheep doesn't make us "un-free", but accepting government assistance does?
 
First, I want to see where the data from that map comes from.
Then, I still think we can say that society plays a big role in what a "rational" human wants to do. I'm sure the Soviets tried to brainwash people into thinking that collectivism (or their flawed version of it :3oops:) was the clear rational thing to be. Did it work?
 
In that case, I don't really get what you're asking.
Most people willing to submit to laws also don't mind receiving the occasional kickback. Is that where this is going?
Following laws indiscriminately like a bunch of sheep doesn't make us "un-free", but accepting government assistance does?

Freedom is the ability to make choices in accordance with our will. I'm simply wanting to know if most humans desire these circumstances.
 
If that's your definition, then yes.
By definition, people want things according to their will.
 
I voted no, for several reasons.

It's been my observation that humans value relative freedom. For example, people in the developed world, like Americans, Canadians, Europeans, etc., judge their freedoms based on comparison with nations that have less of it. But we are not free. In fact, people fear true freedom and have always welcomed some degree of subjugation in order to placate that fear.

Also, a person enjoys freedom in a selfish sense, as it relates to his life, property, goods, relationships, his interactions; but he does not care enough about the freedom of his neighbors. This is the reason why freedoms are on the decline: people care only about their own freedoms, but fail to see why the freedoms and happiness of others matter just as much. Thus, they in turn end up losing freedoms.

I would also say that freedom is a state of mind. People look to the external to change their life circumstances. They want to re-arrange what is outside of themselves in order to feel happier and in order to feel more free, but only end up feeling miserable. Political freedom is something you fight for, I suppose... but fighting the external won't change the internal.

So I guess in summary, I'll just say that people first must understand what freedom is before they can have a rational desire to welcome it into their lives. People define freedom according to politics when that's not what it is at all.
 
I'm not so sure that's a universal truth. I think there's a bit of ethnocentrism in believing that ALL humans feel the same most Americans do.
I agree.

"Live free" is a rather vague term. Above all most people value freedom from want. This conversation can only occur between people with full bellies.

But anyone who has traveled will [hopefully] have encountered cultures with very different perspectives. Many cultures value cohesion/harmony of the group above personal ego gratification(freedom). Generally, it is a characteristic that enhances group survival. Exile, the ultimate personal freedom, was not considered a reward.
 
I'm not sure why anyone would want to be under somebody's jackboot, but if they do, they can join a cult. Don't force it on me
 
I'm not so sure that's a universal truth. I think there's a bit of ethnocentrism in believing that ALL humans feel the same most Americans do.

Good point.
I've recently been reading a lot of cultural anthropological stuff- rereading Margaret Mead, etc.
Children are raised differently in less-developed cultures: talked to less, held and carried more. As a result, they are slower to develop a sense of autonomy, but they are much more compliant than American youngsters.
This makes sense from a practical perspective, in a third-world culture where actual physical survival depends upon everybody pitching in and doing their part for the common good; in a tribal village in sub-saharan Africa during drought season, there's not much room for iconoclasts, primadonnas, rebellious toddlers, or juvenile delinquents. Everybody has to be part of the community and work together, or the community will not survive.

So, depending upon what sort of culture one is raised in, plus a lot of environmental factors, the Western idea of "freedom"- ie individuality, autonomy, privacy, etc- might be almost unthinkable, and not at all desirable.
On the other hand, we in the West might never comprehend the benefits of their way of life. For starters, I would think that they would never be lonely.
 
Last edited:
Freedom is the ability to make choices in accordance with our will. I'm simply wanting to know if most humans desire these circumstances.

I can think of some 16 year olds who would enthusiastically agree with your statement.
Most mature to appreciate structure and limitations....and freedom within a structure.
 
Freedom is the ability to make choices in accordance with our will; what rational human being does not possess this desire at their core, even if they content themselves with the status quo?

I guess if that's how you define it, then yes. Everyone wants to be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want. I thought you were asking in a more general sense: do all rational humans desire to live in a free society? In which case the answer would definitely be no. And even among those who do value freedom (in the same sense you define the word), in certain parts of the world other things might take priority over freedom: Stability, protection of traditional values, helping the poor, family, religious purity, democracy, making a lot of money, finding a job, etc.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom