Is This a Fair Complaint

Redress said:

And you think he would have accomplished something he did not if he had not gone?

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It is possible. Unlikely yes. But still possible. But even a slight possibility is better than no possibility because it was never addressed.

Kal'Stang said:

It is possible. Unlikely yes. But still possible. But even a slight possibility is better than no possibility because it was never addressed.

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You really think it was possible an hour or so out of his day kept Obama from doing something important for this country? I think the likelihood is remote to the point of being able to discount it.

Redress said:

You really think it was possible an hour or so out of his day kept Obama from doing something important for this country? I think the likelihood is remote to the point of being able to discount it.

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Again even a remote chance is better than no chance what so ever. And it doesn't have to just be about accomplishing anything big. Lets take education for an example.

Lets say that Obama spent an hour reviewing the pro's and con's of unionizing teacher's or not. That is an hour spent informing himself of a hot button issue. Because of that later on he can make an informed decision regarding it. That would not be time wasted.

Kal'Stang said:

Again even a remote chance is better than no chance what so ever. And it doesn't have to just be about accomplishing anything big. Lets take education for an example.

Lets say that Obama spent an hour reviewing the pro's and con's of unionizing teacher's or not. That is an hour spent informing himself of a hot button issue. Because of that later on he can make an informed decision regarding it. That would not be time wasted.

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Again, the likelihood of his not being able to read a report because he went in support of the Olympic bid is so remote I think it can be discounted. All he would need do is stay up an hour late to make up the time.

Redress said:

Again, the likelihood of his not being able to read a report because he went in support of the Olympic bid is so remote I think it can be discounted. All he would need do is stay up an hour late to make up the time.

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If he's going to stay up that extra hour then he could have informed himself of another issue.

See that's the thing. No matter how you swing it he could have been working on something more important. There are only so many hours in a day to work on something. I would rather him be working on something more important than working on the bid for some games that I will never watch.

Redress said:

Again, the likelihood of his not being able to read a report because he went in support of the Olympic bid is so remote I think it can be discounted. All he would need do is stay up an hour late to make up the time.

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On the flip side...

Wasn't one of the issues some liberals tended to use to go after Bush working from the Ranch, or not going to katrina right after, or finish reading to the kids rather than run out immedietely to go deal with 9/11 issues, or the fact that he spoke in a weird accent and got words wrong, is the fact that even if all those things aren't really "wrong" that they give a "negative perception" and that perception, regardless of whether its a true perception or not, is bad and makes America look bad and insults those he's ignoring/offending?

If that's the case, isn't it the same thing here? That regardless of whether it really basically ruined 2 hours of work time for him that could've been spent jogging back in DC, its the PERCEPTION that he's presenting that he's dropping everything to go pitch for his city to get the Olympics while people are dieing in Afghanistan, the health care debate still rages on with no seeming end in sight, stimulous doesn't seem to be doing much stimulation, and unemployement is still looking bad.

I don't actually think this, but could that be a "fair" thing to feel?

Kal'Stang said:

If he's going to stay up that extra hour then he could have informed himself of another issue.

See that's the thing. No matter how you swing it he could have been working on something more important. There are only so many hours in a day to work on something. I would rather him be working on something more important than working on the bid for some games that I will never watch.

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Do you have issues with Presidents taking time to exercise, say mountain biking or jogging?

Do you have issues with Presidents eating sit down meals with their family and talking to them about their days rather than getting something quick, stuffing it down, and going back to work?

Do you have issues if a President takes time one day to watch a sports game?

Do you have issues when the President invites the Champions of various sports to the White House?

Do you have issues if the President takes a nap at some point during the day due to exhaustion?

Do you have issues if the President takes 30 minutes after a meeting with some Senators from both sides of the aisle to have a bit of social time with them?

Zyphlin said:

Do you have issues with Presidents taking time to exercise, say mountain biking or jogging?

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When it's on their time in a non-official capacity. No.

Zyphlin said:

Do you have issues with Presidents eating sit down meals with their family and talking to them about their days rather than getting something quick, stuffing it down, and going back to work?

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Same as above.

Zyphlin said:

Do you have issues if a President takes time one day to watch a sports game?

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Same as above.

Zyphlin said:

Do you have issues when the President invites the Champions of various sports to the White House?

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Yes and no. Yes because I believe that a Presidents time should be used for more important matters. No because doing such does increase morality.

Zyphlin said:

Do you have issues if the President takes a nap at some point during the day due to exhaustion?

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No. He is only human and humans need sleep. Humans can literally die from lack of sleep.

Zyphlin said:

Do you have issues if the President takes 30 minutes after a meeting with some Senators from both sides of the aisle to have a bit of social time with them?

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No. As that is 1 unofficial time and 2 it builds a repor(sp?) with those Senators which could help get something good passed through the Senate.

Zyphlin said:

Do you have issues with Presidents taking time to exercise, say mountain biking or jogging?

Do you have issues with Presidents eating sit down meals with their family and talking to them about their days rather than getting something quick, stuffing it down, and going back to work?

Do you have issues if a President takes time one day to watch a sports game?

Do you have issues when the President invites the Champions of various sports to the White House?

Do you have issues if the President takes a nap at some point during the day due to exhaustion?

Do you have issues if the President takes 30 minutes after a meeting with some Senators from both sides of the aisle to have a bit of social time with them?

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I think the president should devote the same level of time to his job as the soldiers in the field have to devote to their jobs, until the war has been decided. Wolf down his chow, get back work, miss out on his afternoon nap, long hours ad short sleep, no vacations, etc. So, yeah, I have a problem with the president doing all those things.

apdst said:

I think the president should devote the same level of time to his job as the soldiers in the field have to devote to their jobs, until the war has been decided. Wolf down his chow, get back work, miss out on his afternoon nap, long hours ad short sleep, no vacations, etc. So, yeah, I have a problem with the president doing all those things.

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Good point actually.

Kal'Stang said:

When it's on their time in a non-official capacity. No.

Same as above.

Same as above.

No. As that is 1 unofficial time and 2 it builds a repor(sp?) with those Senators which could help get something good passed through the Senate.

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But hold on. Didn't you say this in regards to him deciding to stay up an additional hour, thus taking time out of his "unofficial tiem", to do work he missed while doing the olympic things?

Kal'Stang said:

If he's going to stay up that extra hour then he could have informed himself of another issue.

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Didn't you also say?

Kal'Stang said:

See that's the thing. No matter how you swing it he could have been working on something more important. There are only so many hours in a day to work on something. I would rather him be working on something more important than working on the bid for some games that I will never watch.

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Couldn't during all those "unofficial" times he could've been working on something officially? I mean, isn't there only "so many hours in a day" to do work? You're saying he's allowed to do frivilous stuff in his "off time", but if he does real work as an "overtime" type thing to make up for some slightly less needed, but still technically, work thing he did earlier that he's "wasting" time?

Your logic just doesn't make sense to me.

He can do what he wants during his free time, unless its work related, in which case it must be judged on how useful and needed it is, even though its work related which immedietely puts it at a higher priority work wise than any non-work stuff he'd be doing in his unofficial time.

Kal'Stang said:

Yes and no. Yes because I believe that a Presidents time should be used for more important matters. No because doing such does increase morality.

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I'm guessing you mean increases moral rather than morality as I'm unsure how inviting sports players to the white house after winning a championship improves "Morality".

And, if that's the case...

Is it not a boost to the morale to have the Olympics, an event occuring every 4 years that the entire world watches and puts your country on display, hosted here in the U.S.?

apdst said:

I think the president should devote the same level of time to his job as the soldiers in the field have to devote to their jobs, until the war has been decided. Wolf down his chow, get back work, miss out on his afternoon nap, long hours ad short sleep, no vacations, etc. So, yeah, I have a problem with the president doing all those things.

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You joined recently so I'll have to take your word for it and ask you this.

Were you equally critical of Bush since he invited every sports team that won a major championship in the United States to the white house, routinely went out mountain biking, and did numerous other things that I described above and those I didn't, all while we had a war going on for the past 8 years. Did you go on message boards speaking about his judgement and his commitment and other things to the troops, or did you remain silent in judging him on those issues?

Zyphlin said:

You joined recently so I'll have to take your word for it and ask you this.

Were you equally critical of Bush since he invited every sports team that won a major championship in the United States to the white house, routinely went out mountain biking, and did numerous other things that I described above and those I didn't, all while we had a war going on for the past 8 years. Did you go on message boards speaking about his judgement and his commitment and other things to the troops, or did you remain silent in judging him on those issues?

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Yes, I've always felt that the president, whomever he may be, should live as the soldiers do while troops are on the battlefield, under his orders. I was very critical of Bush for giving in to the political will of the Libbos and took a candy ass approach to war fighting and ignoring the the division and brigade level commanders that were hard chargers and wanted to wage total war.

I recommend reading On The Hunt, by Colonel David Hunt. He shares alot of my views.

Zyphlin said:

On the flip side...

Wasn't one of the issues some liberals tended to use to go after Bush working from the Ranch, or not going to katrina right after, or finish reading to the kids rather than run out immedietely to go deal with 9/11 issues, or the fact that he spoke in a weird accent and got words wrong, is the fact that even if all those things aren't really "wrong" that they give a "negative perception" and that perception, regardless of whether its a true perception or not, is bad and makes America look bad and insults those he's ignoring/offending?

If that's the case, isn't it the same thing here? That regardless of whether it really basically ruined 2 hours of work time for him that could've been spent jogging back in DC, its the PERCEPTION that he's presenting that he's dropping everything to go pitch for his city to get the Olympics while people are dieing in Afghanistan, the health care debate still rages on with no seeming end in sight, stimulous doesn't seem to be doing much stimulation, and unemployement is still looking bad.

I don't actually think this, but could that be a "fair" thing to feel?

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Irrelevant to what I am asking. Yes, Bush got attacked unfairly(I will let you make your own guesses whether I was one to do so, since I cannot prove either way), but I am asking about this case. Is it fair to tie going to lobby for the Olympics and not making a decision on sending troops to Afghanistan? If the question was "is it fair to complain about this since others complained about Bush's vacations, you might have a point, though I would point out that stupidity should not excuse stupidity.

Zyphlin said:

But hold on. Didn't you say this in regards to him deciding to stay up an additional hour, thus taking time out of his "unofficial tiem", to do work he missed while doing the olympic things?



Didn't you also say?



Couldn't during all those "unofficial" times he could've been working on something officially? I mean, isn't there only "so many hours in a day" to do work? You're saying he's allowed to do frivilous stuff in his "off time", but if he does real work as an "overtime" type thing to make up for some slightly less needed, but still technically, work thing he did earlier that he's "wasting" time?

Your logic just doesn't make sense to me.

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You don't understand my logic and yet you summarize it quite neatly in your next paragraph.

Zyphlin said:

He can do what he wants during his free time, unless its work related, in which case it must be judged on how useful and needed it is, even though its work related which immedietely puts it at a higher priority work wise than any non-work stuff he'd be doing in his unofficial time.

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His bid for the Olympics was considered an official trip. So it should indeed be critisized or not. In this case I believe that it should be critisized as there are more important things to be doing in his official capacity than asking for some games to come to the US, games which I personally will never watch or have anything to do with.

Zyphlin said:

I'm guessing you mean increases moral rather than morality as I'm unsure how inviting sports players to the white house after winning a championship improves "Morality".

And, if that's the case...

Is it not a boost to the morale to have the Olympics, an event occuring every 4 years that the entire world watches and puts your country on display, hosted here in the U.S.?

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Yes sorry, moral. And yes it would boost moral to have the Olympic come to the US. However there are others that could have went instead of Obama. For example the Mayor of Chicago (or any other mayor for their respective cities). Others that could have gone is Bill Clinton, or Obama's wife by herself. These are people that do not have near as much on their plate as does Obama. Yet they still would have been just as qualified as Obama for this situation.

Redress said:

Is it fair to tie going to lobby for the Olympics and not making a decision on sending troops to Afghanistan?

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Being as the Afghanistan war is more important...yes.

Let's put it this way.

Spouse A and B has 2 kids. Spouse B has a bad cold as does Kid B. Spouse A has a choice of weather to stay home and take care of Spouse B and Kid B or to take Kid A to a baseball game.

Which do you think Spouse A should do?

Kal'Stang said:

Being as the Afghanistan war is more important...yes.

Let's put it this way.

Spouse A and B has 2 kids. Spouse B has a bad cold as does Kid B. Spouse A has a choice of weather to stay home and take care of Spouse B and Kid B or to take Kid A to a baseball game.

Which do you think Spouse A should do?

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Unfair comparison. Obama did not even lose 1 day to this, an hour or 2 most likely, which he can easily make up.

If he gets the same amount done whether he goes or not, how is he not handling his obligations?

Redress said:

Unfair comparison. Obama did not even lose 1 day to this, an hour or 2 most likely, which he can easily make up.

If he gets the same amount done whether he goes or not, how is he not handling his obligations?

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Ok so throw in a babysitter or mother/in law that won't be there for a couple of hours (or one hour) to help/take over. The comparison is valid.

Kal'Stang said:

Ok so throw in a babysitter or mother/in law that won't be there for a couple of hours (or one hour) to help. The comparison is valid.

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If he is on flextime, as Obama is, then it is no big deal. If he works the same number of hours, nothing is lost. You could even argue that he is working more hours.

Redress said:

If he is on flextime, as Obama is, then it is no big deal. If he works the same number of hours, nothing is lost. You could even argue that he is working more hours.

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There is no flex time here. We've got 1-2 hours that is set. Does he take care of his sick wife/child or does he go off and do something that is not as important?

Kal'Stang said:

There is no flex time here. We've got 1-2 hours that is set. Does he take care of his sick wife/child or does he go off and do something that is not as important?

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Then it is not a comparable situation. Obama's work hours are whatever hours he works.

Redress said:

Then it is not a comparable situation. Obama's work hours are whatever hours he works.

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Those 1-2 hours are set because they already happened. His trip was considered to be Official. He cannot go back in time to change what he did during that time. IE no flex time. No matter what he cannot get those 1-2 hours back. Even if he stays up an extra 1-2 hours working on things that he should have been working on. Because that time has already gone.

If Spouse A takes Kid A to the baseball game without waiting for the in-law then that is what happened. That time cannot be taken back. And it would be right to critisize Spouse A for his/her actions.

Kal'Stang said:

Those 1-2 hours are set because they already happened. His trip was considered to be Official. He cannot go back in time to change what he did during that time. IE no flex time. No matter what he cannot get those 1-2 hours back. Even if he stays up an extra 1-2 hours working on things that he should have been working on. Because that time has already gone.

If Spouse A takes Kid A to the baseball game without waiting for the in-law then that is what happened. That time cannot be taken back. And it would be right to critisize Spouse A for his/her actions.

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Since he can make up the time simply by working late one day, and he has the ability to do so, then it is basically flex time, and no time was lost from his doing his job. He just put in a couple hours of free(in that his wage cost did not rise) overtime really

Unfair.

I believe that Obama certainly had ulterior motives in trying to secure the 2016 Olympics for Chicago, I just don't think his trip to Denmark was an effort to obscure his mis-management of Afghanistan or what a failure he has been as CiC.

Redress said:

Since he can make up the time simply by working late one day, and he has the ability to do so, then it is basically flex time, and no time was lost from his doing his job. He just put in a couple hours of free(in that his wage cost did not rise) overtime really

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Time lost is time lost. Doesn't matter how many hours you work you will still not get those hours back.

Obama doesn't go for bid: 4 hours of time spent. 4 important items taken care of.

Works on education for one hour, then moves onto health care for one hour, then moves onto crime for one hour, then moves onto space program for one hour.

Obama goes for bid: 4 hours of time spent. 3 important items things taken care of.

Obama works on bid for one hour, then moves onto education for one hour, then moves onto health care for one hour, then moves onto crime for one hour.

Kal'Stang said:

Yes sorry, moral. And yes it would boost moral to have the Olympic come to the US. However there are others that could have went instead of Obama. For example the Mayor of Chicago (or any other mayor for their respective cities). Others that could have gone is Bill Clinton, or Obama's wife by herself. These are people that do not have near as much on their plate as does Obama. Yet they still would have been just as qualified as Obama for this situation.

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At the same time, could not the first lady host the championship team? Perhaps the Vice President? Perhaps the state Governor? I do understand you said you don't like it, but yet it also seems like you won't complain about that "official action" as much as the Olympic one...where as with the Olympic one you could arguably say its actually a BIGGER moral boost as not only does it give us a chance to improve our world wide image, brings money into our economy, show the world America's glory, and host a massive traditional event rather than just inviting one cities team in to have a dinner cause they won a sports game.

Shouldn't there be even GREATER indignation for inviting say, the Pittsburgh Steelers to the white house for dinner than trying to win the Olympics Games to the U.S.?