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Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

Who Should Have Final Say On Military Matters?

  • The Joint Chiefs-The Military Professionals

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    42
I can't prove a negative. It's up to you, since you insist that it's so, to show where it's OK for anyone to break the chain of command. We await with baited breath.

I am not asking you to prove a negative. I am asking you to prove your assertion as to how the chain of command works. I am asking you to assert the exceptions to the constitution you claim exists.
 
I call BS on you there is no way on hell that you busted off on a 2 Star with out yourself getting taken infront of a Captian Mast. Who the hell do you think your dealing with here huh, you might be able to BS some folks about the Military but I along with quite a few other see thru your BS.

Chain of Command is simple what every the President ask you do end of discussion.

Who said I busted off on a 2-star general? I said that I busted off on a brigadier general. Since you don't know the difference between a brigadier general and a major general, I guess you're opinion of how the chain of command works is worthless. Speaking of calling, BS.
 
I am not asking you to prove a negative. I am asking you to prove your assertion as to how the chain of command works. I am asking you to assert the exceptions to the constitution you claim exists.

You were never really in the service, were you? If I have to explain it to you, then you're lying about actually serving.
 
Who said I busted off on a 2-star general? I said that I busted off on a brigadier general. Since you don't know the difference between a brigadier general and a major general, I guess you're opinion of how the chain of command works is worthless. Speaking of calling, BS.

Sorry I ment a 1 Star either way ther is no way in hell you busted off any General because your arse would have been brough up on Charge's.

You have no idea about Chain of Command, so I'll put it to you straight Mr. Obama comes up to you and orders you to hold onto his briefcase what are you going to do????
 
You were never really in the service, were you? If I have to explain it to you, then you're lying about actually serving.

Actually the one who seems to never have served is you because there is no way on hell you would have Busted Off on a Brigadier General.
 
Sorry I ment a 1 Star either way ther is no way in hell you busted off any General because your arse would have been brough up on Charge's.

Yeah, I bet that's what you meant.

You have no idea about Chain of Command, so I'll put it to you straight Mr. Obama comes up to you and orders you to hold onto his briefcase what are you going to do????

I would decline, because it's against Army regulations for a superior officer to ask a personal favor of a common soldier.
 
Actually the one who seems to never have served is you because there is no way on hell you would have Busted Off on a Brigadier General.

Dream on. Anyone that's ever served in the military knows that there are ways to go off on superiors and ways not to. You just have to use the proper military courtesy when repremanding a superior officer.
 
Yeah, I bet that's what you meant.



I would decline, because it's against Army regulations for a superior officer to ask a personal favor of a common soldier.

He didn't ask you a favor he gave you a direct order which you just violated hence you have no idea about the Chain of Command and while we are on this whole 1 Star General care to tell me who it was and when you did this Busting.
 
You were never really in the service, were you? If I have to explain it to you, then you're lying about actually serving.

So attacking my service is the only answer you have left. Why not just admit you where wrong?
 
He didn't ask you a favor he gave you a direct order which you just violated hence you have no idea about the Chain of Command and while we are on this whole 1 Star General care to tell me who it was and when you did this Busting.

That's not a direct order, that's a personal favor. He can tote his own ****ing briefcase.
 
Dream on. Anyone that's ever served in the military knows that there are ways to go off on superiors and ways not to. You just have to use the proper military courtesy when repremanding a superior officer.

Your words were Busted off on a Brigadier General
 
So attacking my service is the only answer you have left. Why not just admit you where wrong?

Obviously, you don't understand how the chain of command works. So, why not call you the liar that you are.
 
Obviously, you don't understand how the chain of command works. So, why not call you the liar that you are.

So, any evidence at all to support your point of view? You got anything at all?
 
"Bust off", "reprimand", same difference.

No it isn't shall we now start defining what actual terms mean also.

And theer is no way on hell you "Reprimand" a 1 Star General I'm still waiting for you to tell me who He/She was and when this happen.
 
I would love for other veterans to respond.

OK you are flat out wrong. You are now moving the goal posts to make it seem the President would give an unlawful command. Of course under President Bush many unlawful commands were given and followed. So your premis is utter bull****.

Fact is any lawful order given by the President must be obeyed, period.

For you to try and switch this now to some unlawful garbage is just that. Stop using fallacy argument and arguing semantics. It is intellectually dishonest at best and a lie at worst.
 
Speaking of lawful orders, I highly recommend watching the old Fred Friendly PBS series Ethics In America.

http://www.learner.org/resources/series81.html?pop=yes&pid=196#


Under Orders, Under Fire (Part I)
How do we wage war when the enemy dresses as civilians and children throw bombs? Generals William Westmoreland, David Jones, and Brent Scowcroft, correspondents Peter Jennings and Mike Wallace, and others question the duty to follow orders and a commander's obligation to protect soldiers.

Under Orders, Under Fire (Part II)
The carnage of My Lai raises the issue of confidentiality between the soldier, his religious confessor, and military justice. Generals debate the clash between military tribunals and the right of confidentiality with Chaplain Timothy Tatum of the U.S. Army War College, the Reverend J. Bryan Hehir of the U.S. Catholic Conference, and others.

Each show is about an hour & you'll be hooked as soon as you start watching! (you'll have to disable pop-up killers to watch)
 
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OK you are flat out wrong. You are now moving the goal posts to make it seem the President would give an unlawful command. Of course under President Bush many unlawful commands were given and followed. So your premis is utter bull****.

I think you're missing the point that Redress et. al. are making. They're saying that the president can issue order directly to a particular ground unit. Doing so would be a break of the chain of command.

I brought up the lawful and legal orders point, because Redress that there are no exceptions and that the president has the final say on small unit tactics. If the president is present at your piece and gives some crazy instructions to you on how to load the gun, you're not obligated to follow those instructions, if they either unsafe, violate regulations or doctrine.

Obviously, there circumstances when the chain of command can and will be broken, such as on the spot corrections for various reasons, or some sort of emergency. D-Day is a good exmaple of how the official chain of command was broken and due to throwing together ad-hoc units, because if the situtation at hand, a new un-official chain of command had to created where you might have a bird colonel leading a platoon size element and his platoon seargent is a corporal.

Ultimately, the notion of the president giving direct orders to a combat platoon, or a company is so far fetched that it's not even worth arguing about. Besides that, anyone smart enough to make it to the White House is mart enough to know that if he's every in the situation where he has to tramp through the bush with an infantry platoon that his best course of action is to keep his mouth shut and his ears open.

Proper proticol is for the president to express his intent to his chain of command and the chain of command carry out that mission, in accordance with that intent. Basically, the president tells the chain what outcome he wants and it's up to the chain to figure out how to achieve that outcome. It's silly to think that the president is going to be creating tactical doctrine right down to the company/platoon/squad level.

Can the president give the president issues orders to a small unit on the battlefield, is it leagal? Constitutionally speaking, sure. Would, or should he tell individual units what tactics to use in a firefight? Certainly not. Could he realistically get away with making such decisions? There's no way that the chain of command would stand for it. It's the reason that it's never happened before.

When the chain is broken, it will do nothing but muck up the whole system and cause a serious breakdown. My point is, if the president actually had the final say about tactics used by combat units, there are alotta elements of our military that wouldn't exist, the Training and Doctrination Command (TRADOC) would be one of them. There would be no use for corps, division, brigade and battalion commanders if it was at all proper for the president to issue orders directly to line units.

So, at the end of the day, in reality, the president doesn't have the last say on what combat tactics are to be used on the battlefield.
 
If the president is present at your piece and gives some crazy instructions to you on how to load the gun, you're not obligated to follow those instructions, if they either unsafe, violate regulations or doctrine.
So, at the end of the day, in reality, the president doesn't have the last say on what combat tactics are to be used on the battlefield.

Absolutely incorrect & , at this point :beatdeadhorse

Everyone else gets it but you.
 
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Absolutely incorrect & , at this point :beatdeadhorse

Everyone else gets it but you.

Nope, the president doesn't have the authority to circumvent the chain of command, nor does he have the authority to issue ilegal orders.

Hint: Illegal orders aren't just those that violate internatonal law. Issueing an order to perform a task in an unsafe manner is an illegal order, as well.

Believe it, or not, when a superior officer is wrong, then he's wrong and no longer has the authority to issue that particular order. He doesn't have the authority to violate the law, military regulations, to needlessly threaten troop safety and welfare. If a superior violates the law, or the regulations, it's the duty of those around him, regardless of rank, to correct him. And the same goes for the president.

Remember that shot of PBO boarding Marine One for the first time and he interrupted that Marine's salute to shake his hand? It was a serious violation of military courtesy. Ya don't see that happening anymore, do you?
 
Nope, the president doesn't have the authority to circumvent the chain of command, nor does he have the authority to issue ilegal orders.

Hint: Illegal orders aren't just those that violate internatonal law. Issueing an order to perform a task in an unsafe manner is an illegal order, as well.

I'm responding to this not to try to educate you, but to make sure other forum members know you are dead wrong on this.
By definition, an illegal order is an order that violates a law we are bound by......PERIOD. (makes no difference if that law is international or strictly U.S..........If we are bound by that, law, an order to violate it should not be followed.

Any other lawful order....No matter how silly, dangerous, dumb or improper you may think it is...MUST be obeyed or a court martial is warranted.
 
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Nope, the president doesn't have the authority to circumvent the chain of command, nor does he have the authority to issue ilegal orders.

Hint: Illegal orders aren't just those that violate internatonal law. Issueing an order to perform a task in an unsafe manner is an illegal order, as well.

Hmm that would mean that no one in the military would have to shoot anyone since shooting at armed people has a tendency to be unsafe. It would also mean that those courses that those in training have to under go would not have to be done as a person can (and no doubt has) broken a bone or even a neck while going through the course.
 
I think you're missing the point that Redress et. al. are making. They're saying that the president can issue order directly to a particular ground unit. Doing so would be a break of the chain of command.

The president can do this. He can issue any order to anyone in the military period. He is the Commander and Chief and again the Constitution is crystal clear on this.

The chain of command is for under ranking individuals to address issues etc. It has literally nothing to do with receiving specific orders up or down the chain.

I brought up the lawful and legal orders point, because Redress that there are no exceptions and that the president has the final say on small unit tactics. If the president is present at your piece and gives some crazy instructions to you on how to load the gun, you're not obligated to follow those instructions, if they either unsafe, violate regulations or doctrine.

Obviously, there circumstances when the chain of command can and will be broken, such as on the spot corrections for various reasons, or some sort of emergency. D-Day is a good exmaple of how the official chain of command was broken and due to throwing together ad-hoc units, because if the situtation at hand, a new un-official chain of command had to created where you might have a bird colonel leading a platoon size element and his platoon seargent is a corporal.

Ultimately, the notion of the president giving direct orders to a combat platoon, or a company is so far fetched that it's not even worth arguing about. Besides that, anyone smart enough to make it to the White House is mart enough to know that if he's every in the situation where he has to tramp through the bush with an infantry platoon that his best course of action is to keep his mouth shut and his ears open.

Proper proticol is for the president to express his intent to his chain of command and the chain of command carry out that mission, in accordance with that intent. Basically, the president tells the chain what outcome he wants and it's up to the chain to figure out how to achieve that outcome. It's silly to think that the president is going to be creating tactical doctrine right down to the company/platoon/squad level.

Can the president give the president issues orders to a small unit on the battlefield, is it leagal? Constitutionally speaking, sure. Would, or should he tell individual units what tactics to use in a firefight? Certainly not. Could he realistically get away with making such decisions? There's no way that the chain of command would stand for it. It's the reason that it's never happened before.

When the chain is broken, it will do nothing but muck up the whole system and cause a serious breakdown. My point is, if the president actually had the final say about tactics used by combat units, there are alotta elements of our military that wouldn't exist, the Training and Doctrination Command (TRADOC) would be one of them. There would be no use for corps, division, brigade and battalion commanders if it was at all proper for the president to issue orders directly to line units.

So, at the end of the day, in reality, the president doesn't have the last say on what combat tactics are to be used on the battlefield.

Blah blah, It does not make any difference. It has literally nothing to do with the chain of command. The president can issue any order to anyone at anytime in the US military, period.

Stop trying to sling bull****. You are incorrect. :roll:
 
Hey apdst,

Still waiting to hear who this 1 Star was you Busted. :2wave:
 
I'm responding to this not to try to educate you, but to make sure other forum members know you are dead wrong on this.
By definition, an illegal order is an order that violates a law we are bound by......PERIOD. (makes no difference if that law is international or strictly U.S..........If we are bound by that, law, an order to violate it should not be followed.

Any other lawful order....No matter how silly, dangerous, dumb or improper you may think it is...MUST be obeyed or a court martial is warranted.


You so wrong that there's aren't words to express just how wrong you are.


The president can do this. He can issue any order to anyone in the military period. He is the Commander and Chief and again the Constitution is crystal clear on this.

The chain of command is for under ranking individuals to address issues etc. It has literally nothing to do with receiving specific orders up or down the chain.



Blah blah, It does not make any difference. It has literally nothing to do with the chain of command. The president can issue any order to anyone at anytime in the US military, period.

Stop trying to sling bull****. You are incorrect. :roll:


The president can't violate the chain of command anymore than a private can violate the chain of command. The chain of command exists for a reason. On the battlefield, circumventing the chain of command can get people killed.



Hmm that would mean that no one in the military would have to shoot anyone since shooting at armed people has a tendency to be unsafe. It would also mean that those courses that those in training have to under go would not have to be done as a person can (and no doubt has) broken a bone or even a neck while going through the course.


Military service comes with certain inherent risks that are the nature of the business, however there is a such a thing in the military as, "undue risk". There are certain situations that officers can't order soldiers into and that's a fact.
 
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