Yet Another Health Care poll

Goldenboy219 said:

No need to lie. Your actions tell all.

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First you post an outright lie, and -then- you're intellectually dishonest about it.

I guess there WAS more to be said.

But, no more. You have wasted enough of my time.

Goldenboy219 said:

:rofl This is rich!

So tell me, are you in favor of scrapping medicaid, and also believe that in doing so, it would bring down the cost in elderly health care?:mrgreen:

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It's supposed to be a part of the social security system we have in this country, people have paid into the system for their entire working lives and are supposed to get that money back, plus interest, when they retire. Given that, if we're going to be charging people for social security, no, we shouldn't scrap it. Improve it dramatically? Hell yes.

Personally, I think we ought to stop taking people's money and let them invest on their own and be completely responsible for their own lives. If they screw up, if they're irresponsible and immature and waste it... they have no one to blame but themselves.

Cephus said:

It's supposed to be a part of the social security system we have in this country, people have paid into the system for their entire working lives and are supposed to get that money back, plus interest, when they retire. Given that, if we're going to be charging people for social security, no, we shouldn't scrap it. Improve it dramatically? Hell yes.

Personally, I think we ought to stop taking people's money and let them invest on their own and be completely responsible for their own lives. If they screw up, if they're irresponsible and immature and waste it... they have no one to blame but themselves.

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What you propose is the ideal in a perfect world. However, some people do not have the capability to earn a living which includes voluntary funding of an IRA like instrument. However, social security does little more than defray some of the cost of their care after retirement to their families and pay for their medicare. A lot of people who have voluntarily maintained an IRA like instrument have just about lost it all recently.

Social security was meant to be a fall back position. Unfortunately, it is not considered so by most of the population it seems, and it is moot since the politicians have spent all the money.

LowRevs said:

What you propose is the ideal in a perfect world. However, some people do not have the capability to earn a living which includes voluntary funding of an IRA like instrument. However, social security does little more than defray some of the cost of their care after retirement to their families and pay for their medicare. A lot of people who have voluntarily maintained an IRA like instrument have just about lost it all recently.

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It doesn't have to be a perfect world, it just has to be a responsible one and the one thing this country does VERY BADLY is hold anyone responsible. There are too many back doors and safety nets to catch the stupid when they fall and not bother requiring anyone get back on their feet. A lot of the reason we're in this financial disaster is because we have so many stupid people and unregulated industries only too happy to take advantage of the painfully gullible.

Social security was meant to be a fall back position. Unfortunately, it is not considered so by most of the population it seems, and it is moot since the politicians have spent all the money.

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I agree and that's out and out fraud. Everyone ought to be able to get the money they put into the SS system out again, that's the agreement, but politicians have routinely plundered the SS system because it had more money in it than was being taken out. We should have held our politicians accountable all these years but most voters will never turn down a free lunch and the more freebies the government hands out, even if it cannot afford it, the more hands will be out for them.

You're just excusing voter stupidity and political fraud because that's how it's always been done. Great rationale there.

Cephus said:

It doesn't have to be a perfect world, it just has to be a responsible one and the one thing this country does VERY BADLY is hold anyone responsible. There are too many back doors and safety nets to catch the stupid when they fall and not bother requiring anyone get back on their feet. A lot of the reason we're in this financial disaster is because we have so many stupid people and unregulated industries only too happy to take advantage of the painfully gullible.



I agree and that's out and out fraud. Everyone ought to be able to get the money they put into the SS system out again, that's the agreement, but politicians have routinely plundered the SS system because it had more money in it than was being taken out. We should have held our politicians accountable all these years but most voters will never turn down a free lunch and the more freebies the government hands out, even if it cannot afford it, the more hands will be out for them.

You're just excusing voter stupidity and political fraud because that's how it's always been done. Great rationale there.

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Wow! I thought we we getting along so well and were mostly in agreement but then all of a sudden you tried to read my mind and got something very different than ever entered my mind.

I was not referring to the stupid but the intellectually challenged, previously know as retarded, and those with other disabilities interfering with them earning a living much less amassing a retirement fund. Granted their families and local community charities should be the first line of care for these guys. I was once involved as a photographer with Special Olympics. I went to the Lynchburg School and Hospital in Virginia with the Chapter Chairman to involve them in our activities and were given a tour. There were absolutely wonderful people there who had been born with no arms or legs. That is of course the extreme, but what if anything do you propose would be appropriate government involvement in the lives of such people?

I offered no excuse whatsoever for "political fraud" as I consider it an insidious crime, a violation of the public trust which should result in the death penalty.

LowRevs said:

I was not referring to the stupid but the intellectually challenged, previously know as retarded, and those with other disabilities interfering with them earning a living much less amassing a retirement fund. Granted their families and local community charities should be the first line of care for these guys. I was once involved as a photographer with Special Olympics. I went to the Lynchburg School and Hospital in Virginia with the Chapter Chairman to involve them in our activities and were given a tour. There were absolutely wonderful people there who had been born with no arms or legs. That is of course the extreme, but what if anything do you propose would be appropriate government involvement in the lives of such people?

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You're talking about a tiny little percentage of the population. In that particular situation, we can work out an exception for those people who need more help due to specific handicaps they have. That doesn't mean we make the same exception for *EVERYONE*.

Cephus said:

You're talking about a tiny little percentage of the population. In that particular situation, we can work out an exception for those people who need more help due to specific handicaps they have. That doesn't mean we make the same exception for *EVERYONE*.

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Not all people are rational economic agents, attempting to maximize their utility, hedge their risks, and plan for the future.

Yes, it is true that some people have forgone health insurance to purchase vacations, TV's, and what have ya. But.... That does not mean it is justifiable in denying health coverage to them.

Think of the young strapping man who is healthy as a horse, and forgoes health insurance because he believes he will not get sick. A few years go by, and as he is walking across the street in LA, he gets hit by an illegal immigrant:mrgreen:

Well, tough luck for him right? I guess it is better (for him and the hospital) to let his $20k hospital bill collect interest for 7 years until it is off of his credit. :roll:

Goldenboy219 said:

Not all people are rational economic agents, attempting to maximize their utility, hedge their risks, and plan for the future.

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You're just trying to make excuses for stupid people. People need to be forced to take responsibility for their lives and if they refuse to do so, deal with the consequences thereof. That's what being an adult means.

Yes, it is true that some people have forgone health insurance to purchase vacations, TV's, and what have ya. But.... That does not mean it is justifiable in denying health coverage to them.

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Why not? Some people would rather play than work, that means some people would rather die than eat. Exactly why are we supposed to feel sorry for these people?

Think of the young strapping man who is healthy as a horse, and forgoes health insurance because he believes he will not get sick. A few years go by, and as he is walking across the street in LA, he gets hit by an illegal immigrant:mrgreen:

Well, tough luck for him right? I guess it is better (for him and the hospital) to let his $20k hospital bill collect interest for 7 years until it is off of his credit. :roll:

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He gets put back together, paid for by every shred of property and money the illegal alien has before we chuck his ass back across the border, the remainder can be paid off by the injured party over time. We bill him for it.

It's easy if you think about it.

Cephus said:

You're just trying to make excuses for stupid people. People need to be forced to take responsibility for their lives and if they refuse to do so, deal with the consequences thereof. That's what being an adult means.

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Not at all. Utility maximization is not entirely rational, therefore we need to step outside our ideals to accurately analyze such behavior. Simply stating "too bad" just doesn't cut it.

Why not? Some people would rather play than work, that means some people would rather die than eat. Exactly why are we supposed to feel sorry for these people?

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Who said anything about feeling sorry? My line of thinking is more in tuned with maximizing potential, within multiple realms. Why? Because not everyone is equal, and therefore results may vary. But..., not everyone has equal access or upbringing to bestow such important values (responsibility), and ignoring them, imho, creates more harm than good.

He gets put back together, paid for by every shred of property and money the illegal alien has before we chuck his ass back across the border, the remainder can be paid off by the injured party over time. We bill him for it.

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Usually not the case. In reality, the hospital will be forced to foot the bill, after the 7 year period passes, which has been proven to increase the cost of health care. Not only would this guy be forced into a terrible situation, but would not be maximizing his potential by contributing to society in a meaningful way. Sorry to say, but working to pay off hospital bills for a freak accident is not optimal, when he could be learning a skill, starting a family, buying a home, investing his savings, etc....

In a similar scenario, if it were someone who had insurance, another instance of dead weight loss emerges. Ambulance chasers force a whole slew of unnecessary tests/procedures to maximize the potential award for their client and themselves, thereby driving up the cost of health care.

It's easy if you think about it.

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I will admit, it is easier to just ignore it, until things like this begin to spillover into your life.

Goldenboy219 said:

Who said anything about feeling sorry? My line of thinking is more in tuned with maximizing potential, within multiple realms. Why? Because not everyone is equal, and therefore results may vary. But..., not everyone has equal access or upbringing to bestow such important values (responsibility), and ignoring them, imho, creates more harm than good.

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Whether those values are bestowed or not, they need to be held accountable. Not everyone was bestowed with a respect for the law either, but we don't shrug our shoulders and let criminals run free.

There was a time when American was the land of opportunity, not the land of "you-owe-it-to-me". The American Dream was once that if you worked hard enough, you can achieve your dreams, today all you have to do is wake up and hold your hand out. You're setting the bar so low that it's not even a trip-hazard.

We need to hold the bar high so that people are held accountable for working to meet it. Those who refuse to do so deserve to fail, even if it's just as an example to everyone else that failure has consequences. We've turned into a consequence-less society where no matter how badly you do things, you'll never get the opportunity to fail.

Usually not the case. In reality, the hospital will be forced to foot the bill, after the 7 year period passes, which has been proven to increase the cost of health care. Not only would this guy be forced into a terrible situation, but would not be maximizing his potential by contributing to society in a meaningful way. Sorry to say, but working to pay off hospital bills for a freak accident is not optimal, when he could be learning a skill, starting a family, buying a home, investing his savings, etc....

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This has resulted in many hospitals closing their emergency rooms entirely, thus negating their requirement to provide services for people who can't afford them. If the trend continues, it won't be too long before we have no public emergency rooms left, the only way to get treatment will be to make an appointment. Is that seriously the kind of country you want to live in? Right now, hospitals are going out of business because they are required by law to treat all comers, emergency-case or not, who walk in their emergency room doors and the government certainly doesn't do anything to reimburse them like they're supposed to. Even getting the government to pay things like Medicare is difficult.

In a similar scenario, if it were someone who had insurance, another instance of dead weight loss emerges. Ambulance chasers force a whole slew of unnecessary tests/procedures to maximize the potential award for their client and themselves, thereby driving up the cost of health care.

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That's something that needs to be overhauled, the entire legal industry has become a bunch of sharks and shysters. They were once agents of the courts, now they're self-involved slimebags. Unfortunately, they're also extremely wealthy and they fund many political campaigns and many politicians and judges come from their ranks, so the chances of getting any serious reform are somewhere between slim and none. This is the problem when you put the responsibility for overseeing an industry in the hands of the people who directly benefit from that industry not being regulated.

Cephus said:

You're talking about a tiny little percentage of the population. In that particular situation, we can work out an exception for those people who need more help due to specific handicaps they have. That doesn't mean we make the same exception for *EVERYONE*.

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Unfortunately, it's not as tiny as you might think. I am against government health care for *EVERYONE*. Never said I was for it. I was just saying that there is a legitimate need, and that if it is not being met in the local communities, common decency requires that it be addressed federally or at the lowest level of government possible.

LowRevs said:

Unfortunately, it's not as tiny as you might think. I am against government health care for *EVERYONE*. Never said I was for it. I was just saying that there is a legitimate need, and that if it is not being met in the local communities, common decency requires that it be addressed federally or at the lowest level of government possible.

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We're talking about people who are demonstrably mentally retarded, not people who are just stupid. Two different things. If stupid people get weeded out of the gene pool, I've got no problem with that.

My computer had a spasm and caused me to click the option "No, no public option makes the bill not worth passing" when I meant to click other.

So for anybody who reads who voted for what, I don't actually support the option "No, no public option makes the bill not worth passing".

I think that the Public Option is one of the flaws of the current bills, but there are other problems too. Heck, I don't even know what bill is what anymore.