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Should commerical trucking be moved towards natural gas?

Should commerical vehicles (namely trucks) move towards natural gas?


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Kushinator

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Given that trucks run on diesel, and are putting many more miles than your basic automobiles, should the trucking industry be making a shift to natural gas?

Some info:
Nearly every good consumed in the U.S. is put on a truck at some point. As a result, the trucking industry hauled 68.9% of all the tons of freight transported in the United States in 2003, equating to 9.1 billion tons. The trucking industry was an astounding $610 billion industry in 2003, representing 86.9% of the nation?s freight bill[1]. Put another way, on average, trucking collected 86.9 cents of every dollar spent on freight transportation. Both the tonnage and revenue figures included for-hire (truckload and less-than-truckload) and private carriage.

In 2003, over 24 million trucks (all classes) hauled over 9 billion tons of freight. Of the more than 24 million trucks, 2.6 million were Class 8 vehicles[2]. Also, there were 4.9 million commercial trailers registered in 2003.

All trucks, (excluding vehicles used by the government and on farms, but including all weight classes) used for business purposes logged a total of 444 billion miles in 2003, which accounted for 15.6% of all motor vehicle miles and 37.6% of all truck miles. Class 8 trucks drove a total of 114 billion miles according to Martin Labbe Associates. That means that on average a Class 8 truck drove over 43,000 miles in 2003, although many long-haul Class 8 trucks travel in excess of 100,000 miles each year.

In 2003, trucks (all classes) consumed nearly 50 billion gallons of fuel, including both diesel and gasoline. Most heavy-duty trucks run on diesel fuel, which is hwy over 69% of all fuel burned by trucks is diesel fuel, equating to 34.6 billion gallons

With this in mind, should we begin moving towards commercial vehicles of all kind being powered by natural gas?
 
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The cost of building entirely new trucks and infrastructure for natural gas would be huge. Natural gas isn't a good replacement for oil. While we have large amounts of it, we are still going to be running out in a few decades, and will inevitably have to import foreign sources.

While I don't have a problem with individual people or private business who want to switch to NG, it shouldn't be a national policy.
 
This is directly related to what I do; I have beem saying for some time that you can blame SUVs all you want for our demands for oil, but to do so overlooks the consuption of oil by the transportation industry --OTR trucks as well as trains. I once calculated that a typical OTR rig driven to DOT limits uses as many gallons of fuel as 30 average cars.

As for conversion to NG?

As soon as the market demands it, it will happen.
 
trucks should simply get replaced by trains...
This speaks from ignorance.
Over distances of ~1000 miles or less, trucks are more cost-effective than trains.
 
I thought that trucks couldn't run well on NatGas?

During whathisname's pitch to transform passenger vehicles to NatGas and make a huge wind farm in the middle of the country, I thought I remembered hearing that big trucks would have to continue to run on diesel?

Although, come to think of it, busses in my city run on NatGas. Hmm.
 
This speaks from ignorance.
Over distances of ~1000 miles or less, trucks are more cost-effective than trains.

I've worked in logistics, and it really depends what you're shipping, how much of it, and how soon you need it.
 
I thought that trucks couldn't run well on NatGas?

During whathisname's pitch to transform passenger vehicles to NatGas and make a huge wind farm in the middle of the country, I thought I remembered hearing that big trucks would have to continue to run on diesel?

This is my understanding as well. Trucks will probably be one of the LAST forms of transportation to switch over to a more efficient/clean source of energy.
 
I've worked in logistics, and it really depends what you're shipping, how much of it, and how soon you need it.
Ok, to some degre, yes. Bulk coal, for instance -- but then, the idea was that OTR traffic should go rail, and bulk coal doesn't go OTR.
 
I think your talking about T. Boone Pickins (jackalope). I can see some of the larger trucking company's switching over to NG when ever oil spikes back up but as far as the independent truck owners and such I highly doubt they will ever switch over. What I've always wondered is what we will run our trucks off of when oil and natural gas runs out. Sure you can run a car off a battery but not an 18-wheeler and i don't think hydrogen will be the answer for it either.
 
If the company decides it is cost efficient and would not hurt their business, sure, go ahead.

The government shouldn't force anything on a business.
 
It would be nice as we have a large amount of NG here in the U.S. ... One thing we could do is buy local produce and goods the shipping costs have to be less?
 
Given that trucks run on diesel, and are putting many more miles than your basic automobiles, should the trucking industry be making a shift to natural gas?

If its more efficient that diesel, cheaper in the long run(meaning there is no threat of natural gas prices jumping high with truck using it ) and there is the infrastructure to support it and the trucking companies want to do it then sure. Changing fuels for the sake of cleanliness is idiotic.
 
I know a Dairy Farmer around here that is trying to get his delivery trucks to run on the methane "produced" by his cows. He already has his whole farm being powered that way.
 
The trucking industry is already cutting way down on diesel usage; the big outfits are now shifting toward rail freight and reducing their OTR runs, and have been for a while now; they pick up at intermodal rail yards for local and regional delivery. This has been going on for years.

I don't know that using natural gas would do anything; it has other issues that usually prevent it from economically replacing diesel.

As for other alternatives, there are techies experimenting with steam power again, which look pretty interesting. There are some Brits who've got up a steam powered car they're planning to bring to the U.S. soon to challenge the world speed record for steam powered cars, set by a Stanley Steamer back in 1905 or thereabouts, I don't recall the year, it's probably in Guiness or somewhere, and reached a speed of 200kph or so. With modern metallurgy materials, that is an option worth looking into.

Google Books has scanned a lot more older books recently, in the last couple of years on early automobile technology, my favorite is The Horseless Age, and there are several books that cover steam and battery powered vehicles and break down the economics involved, one book is devoted entirely to commercial vehicles, for those interested. Some of the high end steam cars were reporting getting 300 miles to 10 gals. of water. I suppose natural gas would be a great source of heat for steam vehicles, an the tech would be lot cleaner than battery technology, for sure. Steam engines can certainly develop a lot of horsepower.

But, we're going to get whatever the Establishment decides we'll get, and if aristocrats like Al Gore stand to make a billion bucks off his pet battery car projects, then that's what we'll get.

Those 18 wheelers are already pretty damn efficient as they are now, they're pulling 40 tons on 4 to 6 mile per gallon as it is, so I don't think there is much more to squeeze out of that tech tree. The trucking companies are lobbying for Road Trains' and the NAFTA Super Highway now, but that is just because the rest of us will paying for their business expenses, and not a real macro-economic savings, the road trains will mainly just cut their labor costs, and trucking is already a sweatshop industry with no labor law protections at all as a practical matter.
 
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Changing fuels for the sake of cleanliness is idiotic.

Depends. NG has a lot of hidden costs that get ignored, though, but anything can look 'economical' when the main source of vehicle fuels that the economy has been geared toward reaches ridiculous price levels and gets scarcer and scarcer, 'cleaner' fuels look better and better.
 
Ah, I found one that's fairly comprehensive:

Cyclopedia of Automobile Engineering, by the American Technical Society, 1915 edition.

And ...

The Motor Truck As An Aid To Business Profits, by S. V. Norton, 1918 edition. This one is a British book, though it covers U.S. vehicles, at least I think it does.

Both of these books also have loads of photos of cars and trucks, so they're great for collectors to add to your personal libraries for you vintage car buffs.
 
Depends. NG has a lot of hidden costs that get ignored, though, but anything can look 'economical' when the main source of vehicle fuels that the economy has been geared toward reaches ridiculous price levels and gets scarcer and scarcer, 'cleaner' fuels look better and better.

Cleaner fuels only look if they are just as good and cheap or cheaper than the regular fuels. Ethanol for example is a crappy alternative considering the amount of land it needs, the land it takes away from food crops and the fact it increases the price of corn. How would converting diesel trucks to natural gas not increase the price or decrease the supply for those who use it to heat their homes, hot water tanks, cook with and etc?
 
Cleaner fuels only look if they are just as good and cheap or cheaper than the regular fuels. Ethanol for example is a crappy alternative considering the amount of land it needs, the land it takes away from food crops and the fact it increases the price of corn. How would converting diesel trucks to natural gas not increase the price or decrease the supply for those who use it to heat their homes, hot water tanks, cook with and etc?

Because, as you noted in the example of amount of land needed to make ethanol, if all trucks were switched from natural gas, it would save an estimated 2-2.5 million barrels of crude per day (dont have a link, just watched it on CNBC). The reduction in demand from the trucking industry would almost certainly reduce the cost of other crude based products such as gasoline.

On top of that, there is also the proverbial income effect. We have plenty of natural gas here in the US, and an increase in demand can and will spur new industries and jobs in that sector, therefore increasing total output (gdp).
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My idea is simple, and goes along the lines of the T Boone Pickens Plan. Government puts forth a hefty amount of research grants into the field of NG torque centered engines. They also incentivize trucking companies by giving them tax credits for switching to natural gas. On top of that, they provide tax incentives to businesses that specialize in NG distribution so that it can be had at your local Flying J, etc....

The private market stands to gain quite a bit, as a new industry is developed. You can say what you want, but we are bleeding our national wealth by sending billions of dollars out of the US to purchase foreign oil and fuel.

The long run effects on health, income, and efficiency cannot be denied.
 
Not to take away from the OT but I always hear mentioned the possibilities and ways we can lower oil consumption by changing our methods of transport but what I rarely ever hear mentioned is that a very large chunk of the oil the US consumes is in the manufacturing industry. Why do I never hear any mention of weening ourselves off of plastics and other such products?
 
Should commercial trucking be moved towards natural gas?

That was tried over thirty years ago by Consolidated Freightways, at that time CF was the largest LTL carrier in the United States (they do not exist now, at least under the CF banner, see Con-Way).

They tried it with some of their city fleets, they would go out and make deliveries and most times they got job done but a lot of times they would run out of fuel which would cost in addition to the lost delivery time of the city driver but they had to send a service truck.

There was no way of fueling up on the road. I’m sure that with today’s improved trucks you could, and some companies do use Natural Gas (as my link to Transport Topics shows) You could not go over the mountains with a very heavy load and carry enough fuel for a days run. As for fuel economy, we have some trucks approaching 12-15 mpg with a fairly light load in the plains.

Crossing the Rockies, in snow and ice, loaded with heavy machinery? Not with this old man at the wheel; I’m not crossing the divide with something running on hot air. :shock:

As for as using more trains, check it out, you will see more and more company trucks being pulled by “diesel powered” trains and switched out with “electric powered” switch engines in the fright yards.

Then you have the “diesel-powered packers” in the Port of Long Beach. Yes a lot of the containers that come thru the port get put on trains but I haven’t seen many Wal-Marts, Targets, Costcos, with a rail siding, yet.

Until that time comes we will be stuck with the smelly diesel fumes coming out of my two stack Peterbilt. :2wave:

Here’s a link to an old TT with some of the companies that use natural gas. Mostly local deliveries.

http://www.lmtruck.com/lmt100/LMT_webtop100_08.pdf
 
Should commercial trucking be moved towards natural gas?

That was tried over thirty years ago by Consolidated Freightways, at that time CF was the largest LTL carrier in the United States (they do not exist now, at least under the CF banner, see Con-Way).

They tried it with some of their city fleets, they would go out and make deliveries and most times they got job done but a lot of times they would run out of fuel which would cost in addition to the lost delivery time of the city driver but they had to send a service truck.

There was no way of fueling up on the road. I’m sure that with today’s improved trucks you could, and some companies do use Natural Gas (as my link to Transport Topics shows) You could not go over the mountains with a very heavy load and carry enough fuel for a days run. As for fuel economy, we have some trucks approaching 12-15 mpg with a fairly light load in the plains.

Crossing the Rockies, in snow and ice, loaded with heavy machinery? Not with this old man at the wheel; I’m not crossing the divide with something running on hot air. :shock:

As for as using more trains, check it out, you will see more and more company trucks being pulled by “diesel powered” trains and switched out with “electric powered” switch engines in the fright yards.

Then you have the “diesel-powered packers” in the Port of Long Beach. Yes a lot of the containers that come thru the port get put on trains but I haven’t seen many Wal-Marts, Targets, Costcos, with a rail siding, yet.

Until that time comes we will be stuck with the smelly diesel fumes coming out of my two stack Peterbilt. :2wave:

Here’s a link to an old TT with some of the companies that use natural gas. Mostly local deliveries.

http://www.lmtruck.com/lmt100/LMT_webtop100_08.pdf

I have been waiting for your response Donc!

I do agree that there needs to be major changes in engine, as well as fuel cell technology for the switch to be possible.
 
The cost of building entirely new trucks and infrastructure for natural gas would be huge. Natural gas isn't a good replacement for oil. While we have large amounts of it, we are still going to be running out in a few decades, and will inevitably have to import foreign sources.

While I don't have a problem with individual people or private business who want to switch to NG, it shouldn't be a national policy.

Natural gas should be a stepping stone to the ultimate solution, whatever it may be.
 
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