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Should We Get Out Of Afganistan?

Should the U.S. pull it's troops out of Afganistan?

  • Yes. There is no possible victory there for us.

    Votes: 6 12.5%

  • No. Stay & finish the job

    Votes: 30 62.5%

  • Yes. Leave a mobil force in the area to fight terrorists/Taliban but leave Afganistan.

    Votes: 8 16.7%

  • Pull all troops out of the area. It's not our fight.

    Votes: 6 12.5%
  • Total voters
    48
Cephus said:
That's fantastic but, forgive me, this is going to sound a little callous, but what business is that of ours?
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Unfortunately, when their cultures breed terrorism that eventually reach our shores it becomes our business. This civilization breeds, creates, caters, and hosts terrorist organizations between Cairo and Islamabad. There are no Muslim armies marching across deserts to put down what they claim they condemn. No great civilizational outburst over what they claim they condemn.

However we deal with them, they have made themselves our business. Now, this doesn't mean that we should be in the business of "nation building" for those incapable or simply refuse to rise above their self imposed civiliational and cultural failures. But making them our business before the 9/11s and certainly before they start arming their God with nuclear weapons is necessary.
 
Devil505 said:
Yeah...Don't you just hate it when liberals do that!
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Ok, once and for all, I was on this ship. We put that sign up there that said "mission accomplished". Because, for us, it was. We did what we were ordered to do, and came home. I am so frickin tired of seeing how often that was taken out of text. We were out to sea for almost 10 months, the longest deployment in almost 30 years. I will admit that I can't really remember much of Pres. Bush's speech or how he incorporated our banner into it, but geez. In the words of our battle group's admiral the morning we got turned around from going home so that we could support OIF "Get over it".
 
roguenuke said:
Ok, once and for all, I was on this ship. We put that sign up there that said "mission accomplished". Because, for us, it was. We did what we were ordered to do, and came home. I am so frickin tired of seeing how often that was taken out of text. We were out to sea for almost 10 months, the longest deployment in almost 30 years. I will admit that I can't really remember much of Pres. Bush's speech or how he incorporated our banner into it, but geez. In the words of our battle group's admiral the morning we got turned around from going home so that we could support OIF "Get over it".
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Even if what you say is true.....Don't you think the implication of having that banner behind Bush (as he spoke) was deliberate & used to make a political point?
Why not have Bush stand someplace else where that banner wasn't in view,or take it down for the speech.... if it had nothing to do with his speech.

No....it was yet another obvious propaganda lie put out by Bush alright.........Period!
 
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Devil505 said:
Even if what you say is true.....Don't you think the implication of having that banner behind Bush (as he spoke) was deliberate & used to make a political point?
Why not have Bush stand someplace else where that banner wasn't in view, if it had nothing to do with his speech.

No....it was yet another obvious propaganda lie put out by Bush alright.........Period!
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Maybe because he flew onboard our ship to welcome us home? Granted that it did look good for him to come aboard an aircraft carrier as it was returning from a military operation that he was trying to garner support for. However, that is our banner.

I have no doubt that he was using it to support his speech, however, the context of the banner itself was meant to express our own support of OIF.

Also, have you been aboard an aircraft carrier? The flight deck is a pretty boring sight. And the speech wasn't exactly "Welcome home and have a nice day." So the camera people have to have something to focus their cameras on during the speech, so why not have the banner that we took the time to put up in it?
 
Devil505 said:
Then don't volunteer other's kids.
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Who's volunteering others' kids? Last I looked, the military is completely voluntary and the longest enlistment is 6 years. Since 9/11 was 8 years ago, and we went to Afghanistan shortly after, I'd say that means that everyone there could pretty much assume that when they joined, they were going to end up supporting out there one way or another.
 
roguenuke said:
Maybe because he flew onboard our ship to welcome us home? Granted that it did look good for him to come aboard an aircraft carrier as it was returning from a military operation that he was trying to garner support for. However, that is our banner.
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It may have been your banner but it was certainly cynically used by Bush's staff to make a political statement...which of course was a lie.

roguenuke said:
I have no doubt that he was using it to support his speech, however, the context of the banner itself was meant to express our own support of OIF.
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It might have meant that to you....To Bush's press men it was meant to convey to the world that the Iraq war was over & a success.

roguenuke said:
Also, have you been aboard an aircraft carrier? The flight deck is a pretty boring sight. And the speech wasn't exactly "Welcome home and have a nice day." So the camera people have to have something to focus their cameras on during the speech, so why not have the banner that we took the time to put up in it?
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Yes I have been aboard an aircraft carrier & Bush's speech could easily have used a E-2C Hawkeye , EA-6B Prowler , F/A-18 Hornet or many other aircraft as dramatic backdrops.....No?
Are you really tryimng to sell the idea that having that banner prominently displayed above Bush....was an accident??...Come on!:lol:
 
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Devil505 said:
Yes I have been aboard an aircraft carrier & Bush's speech could easily have used a E-2C Hawkeye , EA-6B Prowler , F/A-18 Hornet or many other aircraft as dramatic backdrops.....No?
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Not for the entire time. That would have been a little boring. Plus, a good portion of the crew was up there listening, so there wasn't a whole lot of room left to have many of the planes up there. Heck, we didn't even have had most of our airwing left onboard. We were pulling into San Diego later on that morning and we had already flown off a good portion of them the day before, since San Diego was their home port, whereas, Everett, WA was ours.
 
roguenuke said:
Not for the entire time. That would have been a little boring. Plus, a good portion of the crew was up there listening, so there wasn't a whole lot of room left to have many of the planes up there. Heck, we didn't even have had most of our airwing left onboard. We were pulling into San Diego later on that morning and we had already flown off a good portion of them the day before, since San Diego was their home port, whereas, Everett, WA was ours.
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I see.....So it was just an innocent accident that it was right behind Bush for his speech?
The ship's "Island" is an exciting backdrop?
A "good portion" of the ship's crew would take up the entire flight deck?


Sorry.....I'm just not buying what you're trying to sell today.:lol:
 
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Devil505 said:
I see.....So it was just an innocent acident that it was right behind Bush for his speech?
The ship's "Island" is an exciting backdrop?
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No the banner indicated that we had accomplished our mission. That was the whole point of it. It would have been much worse if we had taken the time to put it up there, and it didn't even get in a picture with him.
 
roguenuke said:
No the banner indicated that we had accomplished our mission. That was the whole point of it. It would have been much worse if we had taken the time to put it up there, and it didn't even get in a picture with him.
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OK...I think we've both expressed our opinions. Let's not..:beatdeadhorse
 
Devil505 said:
After almost 9 years & a worsening situation in that god-forsaken country, is it time to declare victory & leave?
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I would prefer an actual victory, a stable and democratc Afghanistan, than to declare a hollow victory and cut and run because the going got to tough for some. :shrug:
 
This is an interesting one for me, because I'm not a military tactician, and it's not my job to make these kinds of decisions. But, I do listen to my two favorite military guys on the subject, and they're split, decisively. My boss is a former army colonel who spent time in Vietnam and was involved in military intelligence. My boyfriend is a navy commander who spent a year doing planning for the Army in Iraq (in Tikrit).

They are evenly split on the issue. My boss believes that Afghanistan is where empires go to die, and that we are going to run into the same kind of quagmire we did in Vietnam there (and duplicate the Russian scenario).

My boyfriend believes that Afghanistan is more important to stabilize than Iraq and that we need more troops there to do the job.

Truthfully, I don't know what the answer is.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
I would prefer an actual victory, a stable and democratc Afghanistan,
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& I would prefer that gravity was suddenly reduced to about 1/2 of its present strength....that my car suddenly ran on water....that the oceans turned into fine wine.....that my lawn would mow itself...that....You get the point.;)
 
Devil505 said:
& I would prefer that gravity was suddenly reduced to about 1/2 of its present strength....that my car suddenly ran on water....that the oceans turned into fine wine.....that my lawn would mow itself...that....You get the point.;)
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We get the point that you are either unable or unwilling to discuss the subject seriously.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
We get the point that you are either unable or unwilling to discuss the subject seriously.
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Then you obviously need to scroll back & re-read my posts on this thread. I was the OP & even my last post had quite a serious point.
 
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Devil505 said:
even my last post had quite a serious point.
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You aren't nearly as cute as you think you are. Instead of trying to be cute, why don't you skip straight to the point, eh? It would be far less annoying.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
You aren't nearly as cute as you think you are. Instead of trying to be cute, why don't you skip straight to the point, eh? It would be far less annoying.
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I've made my point quite often & clearly here but I'll say it again:

It is not in U.S. interests to waste further American lives or treasure in a hopeless Bush/Neocon war where we can't even define what victory is, let alone ever expect to achieve it. We will be leaving that god forsaken country one day, so why not leave now & save American lives.
I'm not saying we should just rush out of their hastily....We should let our forces have a leisurely lunch....& then get the hell out of the entire middle eat by 5:00PM!

Clear enough?
 
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Devil505 said:
I've made my point quite often & clearly here but I'll say it again:

It is not in U.S. interests to waste further American lives or treasure in a hopeless Bush/Neocon war where we can't even define what victory is, let alone ever expect to achieve it. We will be leaving that god forsaken country one day, so why not leave now & save American lives.
I'm not saying we should just rush out of their hastily....We should let our forces have a leisurely lunch....& then get the hell out of the entire middle eat by 5:00PM!

Clear enough?
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I understand that this is your opinion. I'm just not sure that you're any more qualified than the rest of us to render it or have it be taken more seriously, than, for instance, what my 70-year-old mother thinks.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
I understand that this is your opinion. I'm just not sure that you're any more qualified than the rest of us to render it or have it be taken more seriously, than, for instance, what my 70-year-old mother thinks.
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All citizens have an obligation to stay informed, make the best decision they can (based on that information) & then advise their elected Reps what they want done. I want us out of the middle east, at least our major forces which are just stationary, easy targets for nomadic terrorists & Taliban. Keep small, mobile forces in the region that can attack quickly & then leave.
 
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Devil505 said:
All citizens have an obligation to stay informed, make the best decision they can (based on that information) & then advise their elected Reps what they want done. I want us out of the middle east, at least our major forces which are just stationary, easy targets for nomadic terrorists & Taliban.
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Okay. As someone who has worked for government for almost my entire life, what I'd respond is that it's good that you are involved in expressing your views. However, you are not a professional in this field, and your views have no more weight than anyone else's.

I've heard a lot of citizen input in the last 19 years in my field. The vast, overwhelming majority of it was uninformed by any research, experience, or understanding, and it was utterly unhelpful. Had I followed it, we'd have been even more clustered than we already were.

Let the professionals do their jobs. I have slightly more confidence in their opinions than I do yours.
 
Devil505 said:
I've made my point quite often & clearly here but I'll say it again:

It is not in U.S. interests to waste further American lives or treasure in a hopeless Bush/Neocon war where we can't even define what victory is, let alone ever expect to achieve it. We will be leaving that god forsaken country one day, so why not leave now & save American lives.
I'm not saying we should just rush out of their hastily....We should let our forces have a leisurely lunch....& then get the hell out of the entire middle eat by 5:00PM!

Clear enough?
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Victory is killing or capturing Bin Laden.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Okay. As someone who has worked for government for almost my entire life, what I'd respond is that it's good that you are involved in expressing your views. However, you are not a professional in this field, and your views have no more weight than anyone else's.

I've heard a lot of citizen input in the last 19 years in my field. The vast, overwhelming majority of it was uninformed by any research, experience, or understanding, and it was utterly unhelpful. Had I followed it, we'd have been even more clustered than we already were.

Let the professionals do their jobs. I have slightly more confidence in their opinions than I do yours.
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I don't ever buy that "The professionals know better" argument for the simple reason that if you get 10 professionals in a room & ask their opinions....You'll get 10 different answers.
I've worked for the government all of my life too & you know I speak the truth here. There is the right way...the wrong way & the government way.
 
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Devil505 said:
I don't ever buy that "The professionals know better" argument for the simple reason that if you get 10 professionals in a room & ask their opinions....You'll get 10 different answers.
I worked for the government all of my life too & you know I speak the truth here.
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It largely depends on the subject. I'm quite certain that thing are different at DEA than they are in local law enforcement. Local law enforcement actually does police work, for one thing.

IN a military tactical setting, multiple planners are engaged in working collaboratively to design strategies and tactics. There is a check/balance built into the system to get consensus.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
It largely depends on the subject. I'm quite certain that thing are different at DEA than they are in local law enforcement. Local law enforcement actually does police work, for one thing.
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Locals do police work?
What have I been doing all my life.....Pumping gas??;)
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Okay. As someone who has worked for government for almost my entire life, what I'd respond is that it's good that you are involved in expressing your views. However, you are not a professional in this field, and your views have no more weight than anyone else's.

I've heard a lot of citizen input in the last 19 years in my field. The vast, overwhelming majority of it was uninformed by any research, experience, or understanding, and it was utterly unhelpful. Had I followed it, we'd have been even more clustered than we already were.

Let the professionals do their jobs. I have slightly more confidence in their opinions than I do yours.
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Is this the Rumsfeld defense? I'm not too keen on thinking it's valid.
 
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