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Effects of Minimum Wage

Results of Raising the Minimum Wage

  • Total voters
    40
This poll is stupid.

Greater buying power cannot be determined without knowing inflation and its corresponding rate to wage increases.

Greater unemployment is also indeterminable without knowing the economy at the time. When fast food places were offering well above minimum wage per hour during 2005, they still couldn't get enough labor. Would raising the minimum wage when the bottom paying jobs are already over minimum cause any unemployment affects? Unlikely.

Less unemployment - See above

Higher prices is also indeterminable without knowing the total cost and margins. Just because you have slightly higher minimum wage costs doesn't equate to automatic increases in prices. Furthermore, in reality, there are a great many factors influencing your total costs.

Less competitive on world markets - Questionable. Generally the stuff we export isn't being made or produced by minimum wage workers. Do steel workers get paid minimum? No. Do IT network software programmers get paid minimum? No. Raising minimum wages when the industries of exports are already paying often double, triple or quadruple minimum per hour isn't going to change anything.

Benefits low income workers - That's probably true regardless of any other circumstances, barring reductions in benefits to make up for the minimum.

Places people in higher income tax brackets, I'm not even sure how that would work for people who rely upon minimum. Moving a dollar up on a $7.5 minimum on a 60 hour per week 52 week work year doesn't move someone up a tax bracket. For a teenager, it may bump them from not having to file to having to file.

More jobs go overseas - Again, not the industries that are paying minimum as it is.

More businesses close - See above

Benefits middle income workers - Depends. If it's a side job, sure. Holding all things constant though, it should raise the cost of things like fast food though, therefore reducing benefits to middle income.

If you really want to discuss the real cost of labor, it's in the benefits, the insurance and the associated taxes of hiring workers. Health insurance is unbelievably expense, as are worker's comp and various associated costs that aren't being paid directly to employees.
 
Redress said:
A libertarian posts a poll to school us on the effects of a minimum wage, and you only now realize it's stupid?
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I didn't see this thread before. Diehard libertarians are pretty ignorant of reality. But that's pretty much true of all diehards. When you let your ideology become reality rather then looking at reality, you get dumb arguments.
 
What that statement reduces to is:

obvious Child said:
I didn't see this thread before. Diehard [scientists] are pretty ignorant of reality. But that's pretty much true of all diehards. When you let [science] become reality rather then looking at reality, you get dumb arguments.
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:wassat1:
 
phattonez said:
If this isn't trolling then I don't know what is.
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Almost anything taken out of context is bad. Take in the rest of the text, and he's not directing it at just extreme libertarians, but to all extreme groups.
 
Since when did libertarianism, the ideology that the constitution follows, become extremism?
 
phattonez said:
Since when did libertarianism, the ideology that the constitution follows, become extremism?
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Extremist might be a bit of an exaggeration. Fringe might be better. Very few people agree with a libertarian platform.
 
Redress said:
A libertarian posts a poll to school us on the effects of a minimum wage, and you only now realize it's stupid?
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Actually he's not arguing any different from the neoclassical or mainstream economic position about prices and price-fixing. Well microeconomic anyway, the marcoeconomic one is a little more complex.

It is simply the neoclassical or mainstream idea of prices that if you fix the price of a good higher than it otherwise would have been it will lead to excess supply.

Of course this position is not completely accurate or exhaustive for various reasons but he is not out of step with a lot of mainstream economic thought.
 
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Redress said:
Extremist might be a bit of an exaggeration. Fringe might be better. Very few people agree with a libertarian platform.
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I wouldn't say very few.
 
phattonez said:
I wouldn't say very few.
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About 500k, compared to over 50 mil for republicans, and 70 mil for democrats(numbers courtesy wiki). A party that is ~1 % of the smaller of the two mainstream parties I think can safely be described as fringe.
 
Many Republicans are libertarians. The two are not mutually exclusive like libertarians and Democrats.

I'm not a part of the Libertarian Party, but I'm definitely a libertarian.
 
phattonez said:
Since when did libertarianism, the ideology that the constitution follows, become extremism?
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Uh, libertarianism doesn't necessarily follow the Constitution. Ever read Sunstein's book "Nudge" ?

You also have this strange notion that only you get to define libertarianism is.

And the illiteracy here is reaching levels of unmeasurability.
 
obvious Child said:
Uh, libertarianism doesn't necessarily follow the Constitution. Ever read Sunstein's book "Nudge" ?

You also have this strange notion that only you get to define libertarianism is.

And the illiteracy here is reaching levels of unmeasurability.
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And what makes you think that libertarianism is such a well-defined ideology?
 
phattonez said:
If this isn't trolling then I don't know what is.
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If that's not dishonesty then I don't know what else is.

Apparently you never heard of the concept "all things in moderation."

A purely libertarian solution first presumes people are rational actors. As Sweden's partial privatization of its pension system showed, that is clearly not the case as people did not actively research the various options they had but instead did nothing and automatically got enrolled into the default. A rational actor does not do such a thing.

When you drink the Kool-aide to the point where you can't see reality, you have a problem.
 
phattonez said:
And what makes you think that libertarianism is such a well-defined ideology?
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And what in my post suggests that? I stated that it does not necessarily follow the Constitution. Does it sometimes? Sure. Do some interpretations? Sure. But that's a far cry from your statement that it automatically does. You were the one who gave the impression of a such a well-defined ideology.

And the illiteracy here is reaching levels of unmeasurability.
 
obvious Child said:
If that's not dishonesty then I don't know what else is.

Apparently you never heard of the concept "all things in moderation."

A purely libertarian solution first presumes people are rational actors. As Sweden's partial privatization of its pension system showed, that is clearly not the case as people did not actively research the various options they had but instead did nothing and automatically got enrolled into the default. A rational actor does not do such a thing.

When you drink the Kool-aide to the point where you can't see reality, you have a problem.
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So instead the government should be the ward of our savings?
 
obvious Child said:
And what in my post suggests that? I stated that it does not necessarily follow the Constitution. Does it sometimes? Sure. Do some interpretations? Sure. But that's a far cry from your statement that it automatically does. You were the one who gave the impression of a such a well-defined ideology.

And the illiteracy here is reaching levels of unmeasurability.
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Some interpretations? Unless you're being dishonest in your reading of the Constitution, then you'd see how libertarian the Constitution is.
 
phattonez said:
So instead the government should be the ward of our savings?
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For the third time:

And the illiteracy here is reaching levels of unmeasurability.

How about you respond to something I wrote in actual context rather then strip context out and pretend you're being honest?
 
phattonez said:
Many Republicans are libertarians. The two are not mutually exclusive like libertarians and Democrats.

I'm not a part of the Libertarian Party, but I'm definitely a libertarian.
Click to expand...

Entirely irrelevant. 500k is 500k. Until Libertarians can attract a much larger portion of the population, it is a fringe party, like the Green party or the socialist party.
 
Redress said:
Entirely irrelevant. 500k is 500k. Until Libertarians can attract a much larger portion of the population, it is a fringe party, like the Green party or the socialist party.
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No thanks. I think we should leave and start a country of our own.

The real question is - will you try to stop us?
 
Alex Libman said:
No thanks. I think we should leave and start a country of our own.

The real question is - will you try to stop us?
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Where exactly will you go when you leave and start this country of your own? The moon? The middle of the ocean?
 
Alex Libman said:
No thanks. I think we should leave and start a country of our own.

The real question is - will you try to stop us?
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Not hardly would I try and stop you. Don't waste time leaving though.
 
Coincidentally, minimum wage has laid heavily on my mind. It's not out of economic necessity, I'm not trying to pass myself off as another disgruntled minority begging you to feel guilty on my behalf, but instead casual reminiscing. What is minimum wage, why is it so important and most importantly: who like it and who doesn't? It seems like one of those issues that 'everyone' seems to know 'everything' about and for that reason I knew most were lying. It's not an election issue, so there's less fire brands running around screaming - an improvement. Anyhow, without much further ado: Minimum Wage.

The case for a Minimum Wage is obvious, but nonetheless in need of being restated. Many economically authoritarian elements within the country see the issue not as of merely a 'minimum' in the sense of absolute bottom threshold but more as a "Living Wage." [1] Namely, If the minimum wage went up at least to $7, or better still to near $10 an hour, millions would be lifted out of poverty - by last estimates. Those estimates, I hasten to assure people skeptical of the so-called 'economists' these days, are not exactly exact and have their share of criticism.

The other benefit, say supporters, is that it is inherently racist to not support it. That indeed a minimum wage can bring up minorities from poverty, as long as the minimum wage is high enough. [3] There is wide consensus, even among some conservatives, that a Minimum Wage helps out certain minorities - mostly excluding affluent Asian American populations - to get a leg up in life. While there is no direct correlation between race (size of minorities within a state) and adoption of minimum wage laws. [2] One must keep in mind the persistence of the belief - on both sides of the aisle - indicate that such a statistic doesn't tell the full story, or at the very least shows that Minimum Wage opponents are not as divided by race as first thought.

Speaking of which, the opposition does seem to be large and well organized. Mainly concering themselves with an attack through the plain technical economics aspects - not the race preference of this (alleged) silver bullet for poverty. The Independent Institute reports that In an American Economic Review poll, 90 percent of economists agreed that minimum wage laws increase unemployment among low-skilled workers." [6] While initially I was skeptical of such a number, the sheer amount of articles and economic institutes dedicated to looking at various topics - like Minimum Wage - who disliked it made such a figure low; if anything. The Ludwig von Mises Institute (Located in Mobile, Alabama) says that "Tragically, a higher minimum wage and workplace-safety regulations are likely to exacerbate rather than mitigate social inequalities." [5] While The Heritage Foundation declares that "it doesn’t just take away current jobs, but also future job opportunities." Indeed, any effort to find any sort of true - socially liberal - economic reports on the subject mostly makes the case 'it doesn't affect enough workers to hurt the economy,' [7] which to me: sounds like acceptance that a Minimum Wage hurts economic growth but not enough to change anything (hopefully). Though even ACORN (famous) has made the case that higher minimum wages prevents them from hiring more people. [8]

Economic critics also make the case that minimum wage doesn't actually improve employment, overall. Indeed, there is ample evidence that minimum wage laws hurt employment. [9] [10] For indeed, of the top 15 employment rates only one (Iowa, at #5) has a minimum wage higher then Federally mandated, while four have one lower (Wyoming #3, New Mexico #7, Kansas #12, Arkansas #13). The majority do have one at par with the Federal level, but that is constantly attacked as to low while most who have a higher minimum wage all but have a monopoly on high unemployment (7 out the 10 highest unemployment rates have higher minimum wages).

The case is also made by the Austrian School redoubt [4] (along with a collection of similarly minded institutions, such as the Libertarian Party of America) that a minimum wage is actually somewhat racist. In short, that it is hard for a (Mises.org's example) reformed black convict (with a special emphasis on the high incarceration levels of African-American males) who is clean, looking for a little work while he picks his life back up to compete against some rich, white, frat boy. Because, to be perfectly blunt, if the convict can't undercut the lazy frat boy's wage then he won't be hired.

Interesting, no?

[1] A Moral Minimum Wage

[2] (Page 10 of 24) - Race and Policy Responsiveness in an Era of SubtleRetrenchment authored by Beamer, Glenn.

[3] Higher Minimum Wage Can Lift Minorities

[4] The Minimum Wage, Discrimination, and Inequality - Art Carden - Mises Institute

[5] Minimum Wage—Maximum Nonsense: Newsroom: The Independent Institute

[6] Minimizing Economic Opportunity by Raising the Minimum Wage

[7] The Economic Effects of the Minimum Wage

[8] RealClearPolitics - Commentary - Liberal Doublespeak on the Minimum Wage by Bruce Bartlett

[9] Unemployment Rates for States
 
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